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Voice_Of_Reason
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JNB
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James_2:24:
The number I read in the US on those who attend Tridentine masses on a more or less regular basis is around 300K. That includes all Indults, the SSPX various sded groups and “independent” chapels. Now this number I believe includes those who go to the TLM bnot just on Sundays, but thaose who do not go on every Sunday also.
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seeker63
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larryo http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_214296”, true);
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Join Date: June 2, 2004
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http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Tridentine: dying, isolationist movement?
I grew up in the 50s and attended the traditional Latin Mass of Pope St. Pius V until it was supplanted by the ‘spirit’ of Vatican II. I believe the Mass was celebrated more reverently and I don’t remember parishioners being any less welcoming or more unfriendly. I believe that the liturgical modernists have made a determined effort to focus the Mass on the people of God, rather than on God, in a misguided attempt to water down the Mass in order to attract Protestants. This is all part and parcel of the general dumbing down of standards throughout our post-modern, post-Christian culture, especially in America and western Europe. Witness the prevalence of litugical abuses, bad music, wimpy sermons, and ugly church architecture. Today we have tables instead of altars, Chinese fire drill processions instead of communion rails, touchy-feely bromides instead of the unadulterated Truth of **all **Catholic teaching. If true, it is encouraging that interest among young people in maintaining the Tridentine rite seems to be on the increase.
A few weeks ago, in my RCIA class, I asked one of my group leaders if our parish ever had Latin Masses. I was pretty sure we didn’t. But my group leader looked at me as if I’d asked if we ever had Masses where the Priests dress up in gorilla suits, and said, “No,” shaking his head as if that was a ridiculous idea. He did say he thought the local Maronite congregation had a Latin service.
I know there are one or two churches in my area that have Latin services, but I don’t have a car and they are quite a haul by bus.
But yes, Larryo, as a Protestant who is converting, I have felt more than a little let down by the modernizations you mention. The Novus Ordo seems to lack something to me. I’m fond of the church I attend, but I’m still waiting for a sermon about sin, Eucharist in the hand bothers me, the “Chinese fire drill” aspect of Eucharist bothers me, most all of the music bothers me.
I had been wavering between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, since Protestantism is clearly losing its way, but I see major problems in Catholicism and Orthodoxy as well. Everybody seems to be having an identity crisis. It’s quite frustrating.
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Join Date: June 2, 2004
Posts: 296
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Tridentine: dying, isolationist movement?
I grew up in the 50s and attended the traditional Latin Mass of Pope St. Pius V until it was supplanted by the ‘spirit’ of Vatican II. I believe the Mass was celebrated more reverently and I don’t remember parishioners being any less welcoming or more unfriendly. I believe that the liturgical modernists have made a determined effort to focus the Mass on the people of God, rather than on God, in a misguided attempt to water down the Mass in order to attract Protestants. This is all part and parcel of the general dumbing down of standards throughout our post-modern, post-Christian culture, especially in America and western Europe. Witness the prevalence of litugical abuses, bad music, wimpy sermons, and ugly church architecture. Today we have tables instead of altars, Chinese fire drill processions instead of communion rails, touchy-feely bromides instead of the unadulterated Truth of **all **Catholic teaching. If true, it is encouraging that interest among young people in maintaining the Tridentine rite seems to be on the increase.
A few weeks ago, in my RCIA class, I asked one of my group leaders if our parish ever had Latin Masses. I was pretty sure we didn’t. But my group leader looked at me as if I’d asked if we ever had Masses where the Priests dress up in gorilla suits, and said, “No,” shaking his head as if that was a ridiculous idea. He did say he thought the local Maronite congregation had a Latin service.
I know there are one or two churches in my area that have Latin services, but I don’t have a car and they are quite a haul by bus.
But yes, Larryo, as a Protestant who is converting, I have felt more than a little let down by the modernizations you mention. The Novus Ordo seems to lack something to me. I’m fond of the church I attend, but I’m still waiting for a sermon about sin, Eucharist in the hand bothers me, the “Chinese fire drill” aspect of Eucharist bothers me, most all of the music bothers me.
I had been wavering between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, since Protestantism is clearly losing its way, but I see major problems in Catholicism and Orthodoxy as well. Everybody seems to be having an identity crisis. It’s quite frustrating.
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Psalm45_9
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James_2:24:
I’m a Catholic Revert and I’m 22. I love the Tridentine Liturgy so much more then the Novous Ordo liturgy. How isolated do you think I feel? Theologically both liturgies are equal. However, I would have to say aesthetically, the Tridentine is superior.
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moira
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James_2:24:
I would love to register as being in a Tridentine parish, but we only have a ‘community’ and use another parish’s facilities. As soon as our community becomes its own parish, I will register immediately!
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Crusader
Guest
Two suggestions…
1.) You might look into one of the Eastern Catholic Churches.
2.) Find a parish that celebrates the Novus Ordo Mass correctly. The Novus Ordo Mass can be every bit as solemn as even the Pontifical High Tridentine Masses if the local pastor allows it and people are willing to do the work.
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peregrinator_it
Guest
AMEN to that!
I often find myself the bat between the beasts and birds in these liturgical discussions because I attended an extremely reverent Latin Paul VI High Mass growing up - and so I can see some reason for and am grateful for the changes in the order of the mass.
Much of what attracts people to the Tridentine mass is the reverence and ceremony which are so lacking in the “New Mass”. But that reverence and ceremony is only lacking because, as Crusader says, local pastors don’t often allow it, or the congregations don’t want it.
Consequently, followers of the Tridentine mass will continue to grow, until something is done to remedy not only liturgical abuses but the attitude of many clergy and laity towards the mass.
Just my $.02
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deogratias
Guest
This is true - I moved to this Diocese 3 years ago and did try very hard to find a reverent N.O. Mass - now they may exist but I never found one.
Only since we have a new Bishop who now granted the Indult Mass have I found a Mass that was reverent. Since he is quite orthodox and making other changes, it may be that the NOM here will change as well in the future -
But how unfortunate that our spirituality and mode of worship must be determined by the Diocese in which we live. As Bishops come and go, changing dioceses is not even an option to most Catholics. So we must all make the best of what we have offered us where we are.
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tee_eff_em
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Detroit Sue:
tee
How did you come up with those years, specifically?
tee
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Chris_in_Mich
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James_2:24 said:
Interesting considering that since today only 25% of Catholics go to Mass, as opposed to 40 years ago when the number was 75%. I also read that fifteen years ago there were only a handful of dioceses in the US that offered the indult TLM, today I think its all but about 20 have the indult. The SSPX has only 50 preists in the country but has about 60 in the seminary. I’ve seen much data showing this Mass has grown and is continuing to grow.
James_2:24 said:
hand him a copy of “Goodbye, Good Men”
Has this Priest cited anything to support his views?
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seeker63
Guest
Would it be disrespectful to approach my Bishop after my Confirmation Mass and ask for more Latin Masses?
We have a Maronite Church in town, a little hard to reach by bus, though the same can be said about the only Latin Mass in town. I’ve been wanting to try both.
At least at my church we don’t have liturgical dancers. I was looking at websites of parishes in my diocese last night, trying to see which churches had bookstores, and saw at least one had the dancers.
We have a Maronite Church in town, a little hard to reach by bus, though the same can be said about the only Latin Mass in town. I’ve been wanting to try both.
At least at my church we don’t have liturgical dancers. I was looking at websites of parishes in my diocese last night, trying to see which churches had bookstores, and saw at least one had the dancers.
T
TobyLue
Guest
BINGO!!He then said he thought that most younger folks went to Tridentine Masses in order to be entertained.
What an insult. I thought we had lifeteen for that?
I would be willing to bet that this priest has his “liturgical committee”,
probably run by some feminist nun, to come up with new innovations ala “Sister Act”, to attract the youth. Why do so many teens not go to mass? I wonder if it is because many of them have grown tired of all the “entertaining” that goes on. In order to bring them back they try rock masses, jazz masses, all sorts of flag waving an a few dancing clowns. Give them a true reverent mass, that shows respect for the Eucharist with good hymns that praise God, instead of the “lets all be good and be friends with one another” songs that exult oneself and the youth will start showing more respect and love of God. We need to get the “Sister Act” mentality thrown out of the Mass. Find a hire a good organist that can form good choirs and you will see the change. The Salve Regina sung to rock is despicable.
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deogratias
Guest
I don’t think it is dying among those who love it.
How long would you sit quietly and wait for Mass to begin if your priest did not show up?
That’s what happened to us today. Priests are scheduled to say the Indult Mass on alternative basis at this time. Mass time came, no priest. They tried to locate him. Meanwhile we all said a rosary together. Still no priest. But then an announcement that an alternative priest had been found and would arrive in about 15 minutes.
Perhaps half dozen people in toto left before he arrived but the rest of us waited … 55 minutes late and well worth the wait.
How long would you sit quietly and wait for Mass to begin if your priest did not show up?
That’s what happened to us today. Priests are scheduled to say the Indult Mass on alternative basis at this time. Mass time came, no priest. They tried to locate him. Meanwhile we all said a rosary together. Still no priest. But then an announcement that an alternative priest had been found and would arrive in about 15 minutes.
Perhaps half dozen people in toto left before he arrived but the rest of us waited … 55 minutes late and well worth the wait.
B
Brennan_Doherty
Guest
There is a good article on the Tridentine Mass called,
"Youth behind resurgence of ancient Catholic ritual"
http://www.dailyherald.com/search/main_story.asp?intid=3825677
Here is a quote posted 9/26/04 on Envoy Encore’s Website:
The Catholic rite dating from the 5th century had almost faded into oblivion after Vatican reforms in the 1960s, which included an official ban on its use. But since Pope John Paul lifted the ban in 1984, it’s thriving in Volo and being revived across the country, with young families leading the way.
The Rev. Donald Dietz, a priest at St. Peter’s, says he’s seeing a growing number of young people coming to Volo from as far as Marengo and Palatine.
“It’s not just gray-headed folks. We’re getting younger families who were born after 1964. It’s an amazing thing to see,” Dietz said.
St. Peter’s is one of several churches offering the Mass in the dioceses that serve Chicago and its suburbs. Dietz says they have 150 people attending each Sunday, and the number is growing.
The two Chicago parishes are reporting increases, too. St. Thomas More Church on the South Side is getting 300 people a week. Nearly 1,000 folks show up to St. John Cantius on the Near West Side for two Sunday services. A fourth church, St. Gelasius near Hyde Park in Chicago, will offer daily and Sunday Latin Masses as soon as its building renovation project is complete.
(read article)
envoymagazine.com/EnvoyEncore/
Hope that is helpful! God bless.
"Youth behind resurgence of ancient Catholic ritual"
http://www.dailyherald.com/search/main_story.asp?intid=3825677
Here is a quote posted 9/26/04 on Envoy Encore’s Website:
The Catholic rite dating from the 5th century had almost faded into oblivion after Vatican reforms in the 1960s, which included an official ban on its use. But since Pope John Paul lifted the ban in 1984, it’s thriving in Volo and being revived across the country, with young families leading the way.
The Rev. Donald Dietz, a priest at St. Peter’s, says he’s seeing a growing number of young people coming to Volo from as far as Marengo and Palatine.
“It’s not just gray-headed folks. We’re getting younger families who were born after 1964. It’s an amazing thing to see,” Dietz said.
St. Peter’s is one of several churches offering the Mass in the dioceses that serve Chicago and its suburbs. Dietz says they have 150 people attending each Sunday, and the number is growing.
The two Chicago parishes are reporting increases, too. St. Thomas More Church on the South Side is getting 300 people a week. Nearly 1,000 folks show up to St. John Cantius on the Near West Side for two Sunday services. A fourth church, St. Gelasius near Hyde Park in Chicago, will offer daily and Sunday Latin Masses as soon as its building renovation project is complete.
(read article)
envoymagazine.com/EnvoyEncore/
Hope that is helpful! God bless.
L
legeorge
Guest
James 2:24, I think you should print out this thread and take it to your priest. Show him that there are many, many people out there who are not “wackos” that see the beauty and deep spirituality of the Tridentine Mass and find it a great gift on their journey to God. Why would he want to put down anything that helps people feel closer to God? I think that widespread liberalism in many churches across this country is pushing people toward the Latin Mass at full throttle. I, myself, have begun attending daily Mass at a local Tridentine parish. I have even been considering leaving my current parish and enrolling my family at the Latin church. However, this is a great change and will take a lot of prayer, discernment, and dialogue with my husband. I don’t feel like I should “give up” on my current parish. But that is another subject for another thread. We are a young family (me 31, hubby 33, and kids, 10, 6, 4, and 18 mos.) I am not pulled to the Tridentine Mass for “entertainment”. It is, rather, out of a spiritual thirstiness that I find difficult to quench in my current parish. I long for traditions and Truth. The priests at the Latin church are on the same page I am. They believe in NFP, pro-life activities, family values, boy altar servers, and CCD. These are just a few examples. I, being born in the early 70’s, never had the privelege of Tridentine Mass, nuns teaching in the Catholic Schools, or a culture that reflected true Christian values. These are the things that draw young people to the Latin Masses. There is plenty of “entertainment” in this world. We are looking for “Truth” and sometimes, the Tridentine parishes are the only place we can find it!
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legeorge
Guest
Brennan, thanks for the great link!! 
C
Chickamauga
Guest
I had come to believe that every Trid mass was great. However, the first Trid mass I attended was a real letdown, but I think it was because of that particular parish. Looking around at the architecure of the church, I got the feeling that this parish was in combat between the old and new. Nice stained glass windows, but it also had one of those rather Protestant-looking “risen Christ crosses” above the alter instead of a traditional crucifix. There was, however, a small standing crucifix off to one side of the alter, probably there just for the purpose of the Trid. The church also had a “glass booth” confessional area, first I’ve ever seen.
They have a couple of N.O. masses prior to this 11:00 am Sunday latin mass which they have every week. They only had about 15 people in the congregation. They passed out booklets to everyone to follow the mass in English. But that was part of the problem. I’m somewhat familiar with Latin (I’ve taught myself to pray the Rosary in Latin), but I could not keep up with the priest. He read it so fast it was unintelligable. Plus he mumbled. Now I know that part of the Trid mass is said in a very low voice, but not the whole thing!
When it came time for the homily the priest mentioned the Trid mass in passing in a rather negative manner. It almost sounded like he was scolding the parishoners because of their devotion to the Trid. He said something like “Does it really matter what mass you prefer to attend, Tridintine or Norvus Ordo?” He wasn’t smiling when he said it.
Well, I won’t be going back to that parish for mass anytime soon… N.O. or Trid! :nope: One of these days I’m sure I’ll see a Trid mass someplace where it will be as beautiful and moving as everyone says it is. :yup:
They have a couple of N.O. masses prior to this 11:00 am Sunday latin mass which they have every week. They only had about 15 people in the congregation. They passed out booklets to everyone to follow the mass in English. But that was part of the problem. I’m somewhat familiar with Latin (I’ve taught myself to pray the Rosary in Latin), but I could not keep up with the priest. He read it so fast it was unintelligable. Plus he mumbled. Now I know that part of the Trid mass is said in a very low voice, but not the whole thing!
When it came time for the homily the priest mentioned the Trid mass in passing in a rather negative manner. It almost sounded like he was scolding the parishoners because of their devotion to the Trid. He said something like “Does it really matter what mass you prefer to attend, Tridintine or Norvus Ordo?” He wasn’t smiling when he said it.
Well, I won’t be going back to that parish for mass anytime soon… N.O. or Trid! :nope: One of these days I’m sure I’ll see a Trid mass someplace where it will be as beautiful and moving as everyone says it is. :yup:
D
deogratias
Guest
:bigyikes: glad I wasn’t there.
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Psalm45_9
Guest
I asked my pastor if he could celebrate an indult Missa Normative? He had no idea what it was, he thought I was talking about the Tridentine Mass. I had to clarrify, he had no idea that there was such a thing. It shows you how much seminary explained things… Well anyways, the Indult-Missa Normative is not the Tridentine Liturgy, but it is the next best thing. Regretably, it was the original intent of Vatican II. He is considering celebrating one now.
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Panis_Angelicas
Guest
I think I would ask this priest if he thinks the Holy Father shares his sentiments regarding the TLM.
Then I would let him ruminate, cogitate, meditate, and marinate in some of the words which have come from the Vatican regarding the TLM.
The TLM is theologically equal to the Novus Ordo. This priest’s opinion is biased and does not reflect the opinion of the Church.
(And yes, “wackos?!” he certainly should be given a copy of Goodbye, Good Men!)
Then I would let him ruminate, cogitate, meditate, and marinate in some of the words which have come from the Vatican regarding the TLM.
The TLM is theologically equal to the Novus Ordo. This priest’s opinion is biased and does not reflect the opinion of the Church.
(And yes, “wackos?!” he certainly should be given a copy of Goodbye, Good Men!)
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