Tridentine Liturgy and the Precious Blood

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Hello,
I wouldn’t know. I don’t drink early in the morning. 🙂
Well, wait until evening and pour yourself a glass of wine. Take a tablespoon (a good healthy sip) of wine and drink it. Wait about 15-20 minutes and then see if you are too drunk to drive. 😉
 
When you answer the question from JMJ_Coder, which is related to yours above, then I think you will clarify what it is you are really saying, for you have implied more than once to Coder that we are not permitted.

The question again is:

“Do you have any commentaries on the Council that support your idea that the laity have no right or privilege to the Chalice?”

Thanks.

Boy Joysong—you really like to stretch it. You get an A + in this department.
 
Hello,

Well, wait until evening and pour yourself a glass of wine. Take a tablespoon (a good healthy sip) of wine and drink it. Wait about 15-20 minutes and then see if you are too drunk to drive. 😉
I don’t drink but I have a Lutheran friend who admitted to getting a little tipsy after receiving the “cup” in her Church.

Must have been that fast. 🙂
 
Hello,

That is not the meaning I got at all. A little late it says: “that laymen, and clerics when not consecrating, are not obliged, by any divine precept, to receive the sacrament of the Eucharist under both species” That seems to me that the meaning of “of divine right” is the same as this “by divine precept”. It seems to indicate that they are not bound by law to partake, though the celebrating clergy is. The celebrating clergy, by divine precept, must partake of both of the Sacred Species for the sacrifice to be complete and thus the Mass to be valid. But the laity and non-celebrating clergy are not bound to receive both (or either). There lack of communing doesn’t invalidate the Mass.

Do you have any commentaries on the Council that support your idea that the laity have no right or privilege to the Chalice?

Just to clear up what is meant by–divine right. Our Lord instituted the Holy Eucharist (Holy Communion)—this is the divine right that we (if properly disposed) have a right to receive. The Church cannot withdraw this divine right from Her people.

The Council of Trent states that by the discourse of John 6 – we are not bound of divine right to receive from the Chalice. The Church can withdraw the Chalice from the laity or offer the Chalice --it is Her decision.

Even now–that She has allowed the Chalice–the Church does not demand that every church offer the Precious Blood or that all the laity receive. She teaches that Holy Communion can be received via the Host alone, or the Host and Chalice, or the Chalice alone in certain circumstances.

A church can offer Holy Communion via the Host alone or both species. If you attend Mass where both are offered–it is your choice if you receive both. If you walk into a church that offers only the Host–this church is still offering you the divine right of Holy Communion–even if the Chalice is not offered.

What we the laity cannot do—is demand from the Church–that the Chalice be offered in every church–for we do not have a divine right to the Chalice. We can partake from the Chalice—IF the Chalice is offered or not—this is our choice.
 
Walking Home is correct, we have no constituient right to the chalice. The Church permits it to us, but She can withdraw it for good cause (our pastor has withdrawn the chalice during a particularly virulent flu season). It is also not offered to the lay faithful when at the very large papal masses, for example.
 
Hello,
Just to clear up what is meant by–divine right. Our Lord instituted the Holy Eucharist (Holy Communion)—this is the divine right that we (if properly disposed) have a right to receive. The Church cannot withdraw this divine right from Her people.

The Council of Trent states that by the discourse of John 6 – we are not bound of divine right to receive from the Chalice. The Church can withdraw the Chalice from the laity or offer the Chalice --it is Her decision.

Even now–that She has allowed the Chalice–the Church does not demand that every church offer the Precious Blood or that all the laity receive. She teaches that Holy Communion can be received via the Host alone, or the Host and Chalice, or the Chalice alone in certain circumstances.

A church can offer Holy Communion via the Host alone or both species. If you attend Mass where both are offered–it is your choice if you receive both. If you walk into a church that offers only the Host–this church is still offering you the divine right of Holy Communion–even if the Chalice is not offered.

What we the laity cannot do—is demand from the Church–that the Chalice be offered in every church–for we do not have a divine right to the Chalice. We can partake from the Chalice—IF the Chalice is offered or not—this is our choice.
I still don’ know if I totally agree with your definition of ‘divine right’ in the context used at Trent. But let me tell you my viewpoint.

Do we have an inherent right to the Chalice, not necessarily. We have a right to the sacraments (canon 214). That means, barring anything that impedes us, we have a right to receive the Eucharist. The Church cannot deny us that. We receive the whole of the Sacrament in the tiniest particle of the Host and the smallest drop of the Cup. So, we receive the Host and our rights have been fulfilled. Beyond that, the Church has the authority to regulate. For instance, the Church cannot deny us absolution in the Sacrament of Penance (provided no impediments), but She can regulate it so that you would have to go to the Altar, kiss the Book of the Gospels and confess in the Sanctuary. The Church has that authority. Likewise, the Church has the authority to regulate how we receive Communion, provided we receive access to the full graces in the Sacrament. She could just as easily say that only the Chalice is to be given and the Host only received by the Priest. I doubt this will be done for numerous practical reasons.

The reception of Communion under one kind goes back to around the eleventh century. The text from Trent, says to me, that laity are not bound to receive from the Chalice, not expressly forbidding it (though this became the norm). At the Second Vatican Council, the use of the Chalice to distribute to the laity was more freely given, up to the discretion of the Bishop. Again, the Church can do this. She can say that we cannot receive from the Cup and She can say that we must receive from the Cup - so long as somehow (the norm is through the Host) we are give the whole of the Sacrament.

So recap:

We receive the whole of the Sacrament, access to all the graces, the entire Jesus - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity - in the smallest particle of the Host and the smallest drop of the Cup.

We have a right to receive the Sacrament (fulfilled in reception of the smallest amount of either Species).

Beyond providing this right, the Church has the authority to regulate the Sacraments as She sees fit. (i.e. grant access to both Species).

The Church currently allows for the reception of both Species, under the discretion of the local Ordinary.

Reception of both Species is a fuller sign (symbolism not efficacious grace) of the Sacrament.

This allowance should presumably still be if and when the Motu Proprio is issued.

The most practical solution for the reception of Communion under both Kinds is via intinction (my thought).

I can’t see any good reason why the Precious Blood should be deprived to those faithful who so choose to receive It in the Church today.
 
Hello,

I still don’ know if I totally agree with your definition of ‘divine right’ in the context used at Trent. But let me tell you my viewpoint.

Do we have an inherent right to the Chalice, not necessarily. We have a right to the sacraments (canon 214). That means, barring anything that impedes us, we have a right to receive the Eucharist. The Church cannot deny us that. We receive the whole of the Sacrament in the tiniest particle of the Host and the smallest drop of the Cup. So, we receive the Host and our rights have been fulfilled. Beyond that, the Church has the authority to regulate. For instance, the Church cannot deny us absolution in the Sacrament of Penance (provided no impediments), but She can regulate it so that you would have to go to the Altar, kiss the Book of the Gospels and confess in the Sanctuary. The Church has that authority. Likewise, the Church has the authority to regulate how we receive Communion, provided we receive access to the full graces in the Sacrament. She could just as easily say that only the Chalice is to be given and the Host only received by the Priest. I doubt this will be done for numerous practical reasons.

The reception of Communion under one kind goes back to around the eleventh century. The text from Trent, says to me, that laity are not bound to receive from the Chalice, not expressly forbidding it (though this became the norm). At the Second Vatican Council, the use of the Chalice to distribute to the laity was more freely given, up to the discretion of the Bishop. Again, the Church can do this. She can say that we cannot receive from the Cup and She can say that we must receive from the Cup - so long as somehow (the norm is through the Host) we are give the whole of the Sacrament.

So recap:

We receive the whole of the Sacrament, access to all the graces, the entire Jesus - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity - in the smallest particle of the Host and the smallest drop of the Cup.

We have a right to receive the Sacrament (fulfilled in reception of the smallest amount of either Species).

Beyond providing this right, the Church has the authority to regulate the Sacraments as She sees fit. (i.e. grant access to both Species).

The Church currently allows for the reception of both Species, under the discretion of the local Ordinary.

Reception of both Species is a fuller sign (symbolism not efficacious grace) of the Sacrament.

This allowance should presumably still be if and when the Motu Proprio is issued.

The most practical solution for the reception of Communion under both Kinds is via intinction (my thought).

I can’t see any good reason why the Precious Blood should be deprived to those faithful who so choose to receive It in the Church today.

The Church can regulate the use of the Chalice —because it is not a divine rite that the laity receive. We are not forbidden—when the Chalice is offered. The Church is not giving you a right to the Chalice—She is giving you a choice—of how to receive—if the Chalice is offered.

You can’t see any good reason-----How about the Church’s authority. She regulates–and decided this matters. How are you deprived—when the Chalice is not the ours by divine right to begin with.
 
The Tridentine Liturgy does not provide for the laity to receive communion in both kinds, and never did.

I suppose if the magesterium thought it was a good idea, the Tridentine Mass could be changed to allow it and an appropriate prayer could be written for the priest to say when he administers it.

But it really would no longer be the “Mass of 1962” any more , would it? It would be the newly changed Tridentine Mass of 2007, with that new change. I don’t think that the lat(name removed by moderator)hiles would be really pleased with it, so I don’t think that the magesterium is going to make this change. In addition, this change would seemingly require that 2 priests be present at indult masses to administer both kinds(the Tridentine Rite does not have EM’s). The logistical problems with this would have to be overcome as well.
 
The Tridentine Liturgy does not provide for the laity to receive communion in both kinds, and never did.
I suppose if the magesterium thought it was a good idea, the Tridentine Mass could be changed to allow it and an appropriate prayer could be written for the priest to say when he administers it.
Could someone help me out here? Are the Tridentine Catholics under a bishop, or are they independent of the Magisterium? Does the diocesan bishop have authority over your liturgies? If so, are the permissions which are encouraged in current documents [reception under both species] not meant to be followed by your clergy unless they personally decide to offer both species? Just curious.

Do I hear you saying that this rite is exempt from rubrics that the N.O. use?
 
Could someone help me out here? Are the Tridentine Catholics under a bishop, or are they independent of the Magisterium? Does the diocesan bishop have authority over your liturgies? If so, are the permissions which are encouraged in current documents [reception under both species] not meant to be followed by your clergy unless they personally decide to offer both species? Just curious.

Do I hear you saying that this rite is exempt from rubrics that the N.O. use?
It is logically impossible to have a Tridentine rite mass that follows norms set down after Trent. So standing instructions concerning communion under both kinds, for instance, wouldn’t apply to Tridentine Masses. At the moment a bishop could insist on celebration of a Latin Rite Mass similar to Trent but with a few changes, and ban the Tridentine rite, and he’d be arguably following the spirit of John Paul II’s instructions to be “generous” in allowing celebration of the old rite. However really he would please no one, so as far as I know no one has taken that path.
 
Hello,

Does anyone know, if the indult is granted and many go back to the Tridentine Liturgy, will the Precious Blood be distributed to the faithful.
No, the Precious Blood will not be distributed. It was never a part of the Tridentine Liturgy and will not be.

In order for the Blood to be a part of the Mass, the Liturgy would have to change. At that point it will stop being the Tridentine Liturgy and become something else, such as an altered Latin Liturgy. Traditionalists and Tradition itself simply won’t allow it.

Subrosa
 
No, the Precious Blood will not be distributed. It was never a part of the Tridentine Liturgy and will not be.
Now don’t take this the wrong way, but is the distribution of the Host a part of ANY Catholic liturgy? All that is essential are the actions of the priest, I thought.
 
No, the Precious Blood will not be distributed. It was never a part of the Tridentine Liturgy and will not be.

In order for the Blood to be a part of the Mass, the Liturgy would have to change. At that point it will stop being the Tridentine Liturgy and become something else, such as an altered Latin Liturgy. Traditionalists and Tradition itself simply won’t allow it.

Subrosa
Actually, the Church could easily permit this. She has the authority. It would also be in keeping with Tradition if she decided to do so. Some “traditionalists” would simply have to get over it.
 
Actually, the Church could easily permit this. She has the authority. It would also be in keeping with Tradition if she decided to do so. Some “traditionalists” would simply have to get over it.
There’s no point speculating on something that might not happen. It would be just like saying that the Novus Ordo might become the new indult, only allowed to be said privately, with a full return to the TLM. See what I mean? Speculation is pointless.
 
There’s no point speculating on something that might not happen. It would be just like saying that the Novus Ordo might become the new indult, only allowed to be said privately, with a full return to the TLM. See what I mean? Speculation is pointless.
Not remotely the same. For one thing, it’s incorrect for traditionalists to assert as though it’s fact (though that never stops them) that the Traditional Mass NEVER allowed reception by the laity of the Chalice. I KNOW, factually, that popes permitted it to some rulers on the days that they were crowned and when on their deathbeds. I’ve HEARD that the religious also rec. on the days of their solemn professions, high feasts, etc.

Also, there may well be people who attend the TLM who cannot tolerate wheat and will be unable to receive the Host. I’d be willing to bet that accomodation would be made. Why? Because “tradition” isn’t going to stand in the way of the Church doing what is right.
 
Not remotely the same. For one thing, it’s incorrect for traditionalists to assert as though it’s fact (though that never stops them) that the Traditional Mass NEVER allowed reception by the laity of the Chalice. I KNOW, factually, that popes permitted it to some rulers on the days that they were crowned and when on their deathbeds. I’ve HEARD that the religious also rec. on the days of their solemn professions, high feasts, etc.

Also, there may well be people who attend the TLM who cannot tolerate wheat and will be unable to receive the Host. I’d be willing to bet that accomodation would be made. Why? Because “tradition” isn’t going to stand in the way of the Church doing what is right.
You know, JKIRK, in many of your posts, you make derogatory references to traditionalists, like we are all clones of each other, and we are all out to sabotage the present day church. Sorry, but that has been my interpretation of many of your posts.
 
It is logically impossible to have a Tridentine rite mass that follows norms set down after Trent. So standing instructions concerning communion under both kinds, for instance, wouldn’t apply to Tridentine Masses. At the moment **a bishop could insist **on celebration of a Latin Rite Mass similar to Trent but with a few changes, and ban the Tridentine rite, and he’d be arguably following the spirit of John Paul II’s instructions to be “generous” in allowing celebration of the old rite. However really he would please no one, so as far as I know no one has taken that path.
In answer to my question then, is the bishop of the diocese in authority of the TLM and the manner of its celebration and/or rubrics? Thanks, Malcolm.
 
You know, JKIRK, in many of your posts, you make derogatory references to traditionalists, like we are all clones of each other, and we are all out to sabotage the present day church. Sorry, but that has been my interpretation of many of your posts.
In the last post, I said that “traditionalists” like to make factual assertions when they often aren’t factual. You only have to read through these forums to see that. That’s not all traditionally minded Catholics, so don’t pick up a rock that doesn’t have your name on it. I didn’t use the word “clones” nor sabotage nor was I thinking of either. YOUR “interpretation” may well be the problem.
 
In answer to my question then, is the bishop of the diocese in authority of the TLM and the manner of its celebration and/or rubrics? Thanks, Malcolm.
Ultimately yes. If you have a complaint about the manner in which a TLM is celebrated then, after the priest himself, the first call is the bishop, as it would be with any Mass. In practise the Tridentine rite is designed deliberately to give the priest almost no room for anything that could be considered an abuse, so you don’t get a constant trickle of complaints and grievances.

Now I am no canon lawyer, but let’s say that hypothetically a bishop said that the TLM could be celebrated, but only if the Precious Blood was distributed. It would no longer really be a TLM, but I think the bishop would have the right to do that. However it hasn’t happened and it is unlikely to happen.
 
Now I am no canon lawyer, but let’s say that hypothetically a bishop said that the TLM could be celebrated, but only if the Precious Blood was distributed. It would no longer really be a TLM, but I think the bishop would have the right to do that. .
I don’t think that a bishop would have the right to do that, as it would be making a change in the rite.

Of course he could if he got an indult from the Vatican, the indult for the TLM is for the mass of 1962 which the hybrid you are talking about isn’t.
 
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