Tridentine Liturgy and the Precious Blood

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

The Church can regulate the use of the Chalice —because it is not a divine rite that the laity receive. We are not forbidden—when the Chalice is offered. The Church is not giving you a right to the Chalice—She is giving you a choice—of how to receive—if the Chalice is offered.

You can’t see any good reason-----How about the Church’s authority. She regulates–and decided this matters. How are you deprived—when the Chalice is not the ours by divine right to begin with.

I still am not 100% certain of your definition of divine right and whether I agree with it or not.

And the Church’s Authority at Vatican II loosened the norms for Communion under both Species.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

No, the Precious Blood will not be distributed. It was never a part of the Tridentine Liturgy and will not be.

In order for the Blood to be a part of the Mass, the Liturgy would have to change. At that point it will stop being the Tridentine Liturgy and become something else, such as an altered Latin Liturgy. Traditionalists and Tradition itself simply won’t allow it.

Subrosa

It was part of the Latin rite before the 11th century. The Tridentine Liturgy promulgated after the Council of Trent was an organic development and consolidation of the rites of the West and didn’t change much, unlike the current Mass.

And the Liturgy can change. Vatican can and should apply to the Tridentine Liturgy. It must not stagnate, but must move forward in its natural organic evolution (this is not what the N.O. is, BTW).

 

[Walking_Home]

Hello,

I still am not 100% certain of your definition of divine right and whether I agree with it or not.

And the Church’s Authority at Vatican II loosened the norms for Communion under both Species.

---

The Church loosened the norms—but did not give you an entitlement to the Chalice. She does not mandate the Chalice across the entire Church, or mandate that each and everyone receive. You can receive when it is offered—but you are not entitled to demand that it be offered.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

What is to stop a priest from offering the chalice at a Tridentine Mass? Nothing. It can be done right now. Anything the Church allows can be done at a Tridentine Mass.

I have served the Tridentine Mass and have seen a priest give Communion in the hand. He was a visiting priest and it was an Easter Sunday High Mass. The only difference is the priest can make the decision not to allow Communion in the hand at a Tridentine Mass. There is no requirement to allow Communion in the hand at a Tridentine Mass.

How long does a person have to fast before receiving Communion at a Tridentine Mass? From midnight on? 3 hours? 1 hour?

The answer is 1 hour. The Church has said that the fast before receiving Communion is 1 hour. This applies to ALL Masses in the Latin Rite.

Extra-ordinary Communion Ministers could also be used at a Tridentine Mass because the Church allows them.

The question is will there be Communion under both species offered at a Tridentine Mass? Very unlikely since it wasn’t done for centuries before Pope Paul VI once again allowed it.

The disciplines in force for Holy Communion in 1962 are going to be observed at almost 100% of all Tridentine Masses. The reason is because the faithful who attend the Tridentine Mass are want to observe those disciplines. Nobody would receive Communion from anyone other than a bishop, priest, or deacon at a Tridentine Mass, so don’t expect to ever see an extra-ordinary minister. The ones who hold out their hand to receive Communion are usually younger people who are attending the Tridentine Mass for the first time and have been taught to always receive in the hand rather than on the tongue. I have served Tridentine Masses where a teenager comes up to the rail for Communion, holds out his hand, and is told to receive on the tongue by the priest. The teenager is usually shocked but does receive on the tongue.

You can always ask the priest to offer Communion under both species at a Tridentine Mass. I don’t think he will do it because hardly anyone would receive from the chalice, but you have nothing to lose by asking for it.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Hello,

I don’t know about you, but I have never met anyone who was impaired after Communion. You have a sip, you’re not guzzling down a whole bottle.

Priests and EMCH’s receive what’s left over. I’m sure a few have been a bit tipsy, or “Drunk on the Lord” a few times.

It’s better than the alternative – throwing the Precious Blood down the drain.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

What is to stop a priest from offering the chalice at a Tridentine Mass? Nothing. It can be done right now. Anything the Church allows can be done at a Tridentine Mass.

I have served the Tridentine Mass and have seen a priest give Communion in the hand.

So at what point does it cease to be a Tridentine Mass?

 

[BobP123]

So at what point does it cease to be a Tridentine Mass?

Actually there is no such thing. It’s the old Latin Mass going back to the 3rd or 4th century. Trent specified no new rites would be introduced into the Church and what we have today was codified by Pius V around the same time. And that extended to other pre-1370 rites as well. Yet we don’t, for example, call the Byzantine Rite or Ambrosian Rite Tridentine Masses yet they have the same Tridentine foundation.

Or am I wrong here?

 

[Patrick2340]

I don’t think we should go back to praying the Rosary during the Mass.

I only pray my Rosary during the Novus Ordo, not the Tridentine Mass.

 

[mgrobertson79]

I will not receive from the cup because it is only the EMs have the cup, I will only receive from a Priest. Same thing with parishes which only use altar girls, I will only go to Mass there once. That is what happened to Vocations.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

I will not receive from the cup because it is only the EMs have the cup, I will only receive from a Priest. Same thing with parishes which only use altar girls. That is what happened to Vocations.

According to the rubrics, the Deacon is the Minister of the Cup. So, if things are done as they should be (EMHC’s are the exception, not the rule!) then the Deacon should distribute the Precious Blood - though a Priest can also.

 

[HailMary]

I only pray my Rosary during the Novus Ordo, not the Tridentine Mass.

I would focus on the Liturgy if I were you. You are obligated to participate in the Divine Liturgy, not to pray the Rosary. In fact, if you are doing either of the two, I assure you cannot do both at the same time.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I would focus on the Liturgy if I were you. You are obligated to participate in the Divine Liturgy, not to pray the Rosary. In fact, if you are doing either of the two, I assure you cannot do both at the same time.

I am sure whether you may say the rosary at an NO Mass or not. It is certainly disapproved of.
At a Traditional Mass it is not positively encouraged, but it is perfectly acceptable. Within reason you can do your own thing.

In both cases you fulfil your obligation to attend Mass by being physically present at the celebration, not by saying words or performing gestures. At bit like the women at the foot of the cross.

 

[HailMary]

In both cases you fulfil your obligation to attend Mass by being physically present at the celebration, not by saying words or performing gestures.

Being physically present is not enough.
John 4:24

God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth.

Just like saying the words of the Rosary is not enough to reap benefit from it.
And I also maintain that you are not “celebrating” the Mass if you are not saying the parts where the congragration is indicated.

At bit like the women at the foot of the cross.

I’m not following you here.

 

[BobP123]

I would focus on the Liturgy if I were you. You are obligated to participate in the Divine Liturgy, not to pray the Rosary. In fact, if you are doing either of the two, I assure you cannot do both at the same time.

One is obligated to attend a Catholic Rite on a Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation. It is preferred that he participates though this is not necessary for spiritual advantage as outlined by Canon Law.

I don’t personally say the Rosary during Mass and I don’t want to sound harsh here, but if it really bothers you that someone isn’t “participating” according to your standards, then you are free to complain to your priest or bishop about it.

 

[mgrobertson79]

Hello,

According to the rubrics, the Deacon is the Minister of the Cup. So, if things are done as they should be (EMHC’s are the exception, not the rule!) then the Deacon should distribute the Precious Blood - though a Priest can also.

Generally at the local parish here, the EM’s receive from the Deacon and then take the cup(there are 4 of them)to the people. The Deacon then sits.

 

[Rykell]

I don’t personally say the Rosary during Mass and I don’t want to sound harsh here, but if it really bothers you that someone isn’t “participating” according to your standards, then you are free to complain to your priest or bishop about it.

Actually, Bob, the standards are set by the V-II Council, as you know. The bishops in formulating the call to active participation had lamented the olden practice which often resulted in a quasi-private liturgy. Not a good idea to complain, but rather to inform them in a charitable, tactful manner. Many of these folks are just not educated regarding their role in liturgy.

How we do this instructing, though, does not present an easy answer, for the very ones who need to hear it, will seldom attend a parish education class. A word now and then from the clergy might help, provided it does not take away the duty to expound the Sunday readings in the homily. These people are usually very sincere, but sincerely not informed.

To hardline “traditionalists”, of course, such an idea is anathema, but the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith points out what many of the Council Fathers were particularly concerned about:

that the celebration of the old liturgy had slipped too much into the domain of the individual and the private, and that the communion between priests and faithful was insufficient. This should be seen particularly as a comment on the ordinary way in which the Low Mass was celebrated, which could be done with very little reference to the people on the other side of the communion rail. Indeed, it should be noted that the great majority of the Bishops at the council, including the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, were convinced that a certain reform of the liturgy was highly desirable and willingly signed the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy. The matter of its implementation is a separate question.
(From the link below)

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Generally at the local parish here, the EM’s receive from the Deacon and then take the cup(there are 4 of them)to the people. The Deacon then sits.

This is something you may want to discuss in the Liturgy and Sacraments Forum - it is an abuse, contrary to at least paragraphs 157 and 158 of Redemptionis Sacramentum.

 

[HailMary]

One is obligated to attend a Catholic Rite on a Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation. It is preferred that he participates though this is not necessary for spiritual advantage as outlined by Canon Law.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we read

2180 The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: “On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass.” “The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.”

So the real question is, does simply attending Liturgy, and not uniting yourself (as a living sacrifice), not saying the responses, the Creed, the Lords Prayer, the rite of Peace, etc, count as “participating”. I think not.

I don’t personally say the Rosary during Mass and I don’t want to sound harsh here, but if it really bothers you that someone isn’t “participating” according to your standards, then you are free to complain to your priest or bishop about it.

What are your standards? I am relying on the advice of priests and people that very much understand Liturgical worship.

The word Liturgy, according to the Catechsim means:

1069 The word “liturgy” originally meant a “public work” or a “service in the name of/on behalf of the people.” In Christian tradition it means the participation of the People of God in “the work of God.” Through the liturgy Christ, our redeemer and high priest, continues the work of our redemption in, with, and through his Church.

God Bless

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

So the real question is, does simply attending Liturgy, and not uniting yourself (as a living sacrifice), not saying the responses, the Creed, the Lords Prayer, the rite of Peace, etc, count as “participating”. I think not.

When people stary using words like “uniting youself as a living sacrifice” to refer to the repetition of a few responses I get worried. I think for a mystic or a contemplative nun the idea maybe has some merit, but the average guy is in danger of fooling himself with that sort of talk.

I’ve been to Mass in Arabic. I was quite definitely attending a Catholic Mass, but I couldn’t understand any of the prayers.