Tridentine Mass Attractions

[JimR-OCDS]

The Tridentine Mass, the 1962 version of which has been officially declared the (authorized) extraordinary form of the Roman Rite of Mass is the Roman Rite Mass which appears in typical editions of the Roman Missal published from 1570 to 1962.

It was a product from the Council of Trent.

The part that can be traced to the 1st Century is no different than the Novus Ordo, and that is the words of the Consecration.

Jim

 

[BridgetN]

I disagree. Strongly! The TLM has it’s name for a reason.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

1. The rites should be distinguished by a noble simplicity; they should be short, clear, and unencumbered by useless repetitions; they should be within the people’s powers of comprehension, and normally should not require much explanation.

I don’t see anything in section 34 that addresses Latin or the vernacular. I think it is not referring to Latin vs vernacular there at all. Section 36 discusses Latin and the vernacular.

Also as you also posted;

1. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language.

Lastly;

1. To ensure that adaptations may be made with all the circumspection which they demand, the Apostolic See will grant power to this same territorial ecclesiastical authority to permit and to direct, as the case requires, the necessary preliminary experiments over a determined period of time among certain groups suited for the purpose.

The experimentation by the Conference of Bishop found the vernacular was quickly accepted and preferred, so it’s the norm today.

Jim

Ah yes, quickly accepted and preferred! It was just that simple,wasn’t it…

 

[KATRINA_68]

My Saint Joseph Daily Missal has an imprimatur 1959 Francis Cardinal Spellman, with Latin on the left page, English on the right. Is this what you’re referring to?

 

[KATRINA_68]

I have to agree that attendance would decline. There wasn’t much of a turnout at our Parish for the one Latin Mass Father did. However, at one of the Masses, we sing Agnus Dei, and the choir occasionally does a Latin Hymn. There is also more singing without instruments. So it is a quieter Mass. Recently I attending Mass at a different time, and felt bombarded by the choir which included a bass guitar.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Zelie Martin had no choice but pray the Rosary during Mass, she didn’t understand Latin.

In fact her husband Louis Martin, tried t become a Monk before they met, but he had to leave because he wasn’t educated in classic Latin.

Jim

I would argue that it’s a good thing that Louis Martin had to discontinue his study with the monks.
If the monks wouldn’t have used Latin, presumably they would have spoken French.Then he would have had no problem joining the monastery, but then he wouldn’t have married and been the father of St. Therese, right?
So, just another reason to love Latin!!!

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

I have to agree that attendance would decline. There wasn’t much of a turnout at our Parish for the one Latin Mass Father did. However, at one of the Masses, we sing Agnus Dei, and the choir occasionally does a Latin Hymn. There is also more singing without instruments. So it is a quieter Mass. Recently I attending Mass at a different time, and felt bombarded by the choir which included a bass guitar.

Why would attendance necessarily decline? There seem to be plenty of Catholics who show up because they are obligated to. So, if there was only Latin Mass, they would still be obliged to show up, right?

 

[KATRINA_68]

Perhaps I didn’t understand you. If Father would do another Latin Mass, fewer would attend. Diehards like me would go, but some who had never been to one were curious, but weren’t keen on it. My generation grew up with Latin Mass.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Oh - - I think I am confused. I was thinking I was on a different thread! (“What if there were no Vatican II reforms”).
Sorry!

 

[billy15]

I’d say what attracts me to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass is that I feel we are more connected to our forebearers in the Latin Rite. While the Missal of 1962 is virtually unchanged from what was decreed during the Council of Trent, the Latin Rite has grown and evolved since well before then. What I appreciate most about the EF is that it is much rarer (but not impossible) to see abuses happen due to the way the rubrics are and the lack of options. It’s also a place where we more often see the beautiful music of the Latin Rite in Gregorian Chant.

We’re also much more likely to encounter the Latin liturgical language in the EF than in the OF. Only once in a while will you hear the liturgical language of the Latin Rite in the OF. But in the EF, we see how we are connected to Catholics throughout nearly 20 centuries in praying in our liturgical language. I feel a stronger sense of unity with the past and the current Church Triumphant in heaven, and with other Catholics, when I attend the EF of the Mass, if that makes sense. Our liturgical patrimony is important, as it is the way we give glory to God, and although it’s possible to see this liturgical patrimony on full display for our Lord in the OF, it’s only an option. In the EF, these liturgical traditions are not optional. However, I don’t attend the EF regularly anymore, and mostly attend the OF Mass now.

If you have any other specific questions, or would like me to elaborate on anything, please feel free to ask.

 

[Augustinian]

Zelie Martin had no choice but pray the Rosary during Mass, she didn’t understand Latin.

Not true. Even those who didn’t understand Latin could still follow the Mass by paying attention to the priest’s movements. Not all communication is verbal.

Further, in the Traditional Latin Mass, they didn’t have 3 year cycles of readings. The old school arrangement was to have the same propers every year for the same Sunday.

 

[stpurl]

Call me a curmudgeon but Jim, if you don’t have something nice to say about the EF, how about trying not saying ANYTHING?

This is a thread about the attractions of the TLM. Obviously you are not attracted. Fine, nobody denies you your ‘right’ to indifference/dislike, but that right doesn’t trump the right of those who are attracted to have a ‘brief shining moment’ where no "Latin-hating’ is allowed. . .

But just on ONE little thread, it might be nice, when the thread specifically is geared to ‘likes’ and ‘positives’, not to have the clockwork appearance of “How can you people POSSIBLY be attracted by the TLM? Don’t you know it’s so inferior to a Mass I can understand? Don’t you know all the bad things about it? Blah blah blah blah blah”

The weather is gloomy enough. Can the TLM haters kindly not rain on our parade on one thread???

 

[Casilda]

I’ve heard it said that the absence of sacredness in music and language at mass makes it seem as though God is being brought down to the level of man. Men won’t go out in search of God because they think they know Him already.

Very insightful

 

[billy15]

JimR-OCDS:

Zelie Martin had no choice but pray the Rosary during Mass, she didn’t understand Latin.

Not true. Even those who didn’t understand Latin could still follow the Mass by paying attention to the priest’s movements. Not all communication is verbal.

Further, in the Traditional Latin Mass, they didn’t have 3 year cycles of readings. The old school arrangement was to have the same propers every year for the same Sunday.

That’s actually a really good point. I never studied Latin, but caught on pretty quickly to what was going on at Mass when I attended the EF regularly at my former archdiocesan parish. This was all while wrangling my very energetic one year old! I also picked up quite a bit of Latin in those two years just from attending the EF. I honestly do wonder how much more I would’ve picked up if exposed to it from infancy.

But you also bring up a good point about the yearly cycle of readings. I think this is a positive as well. While I do enjoy the wider array of readings in the OF calendar, particularly the Old Testament readings at daily Mass, I have to say that things flow much smoother in the EF calendar because of the yearly cycle. If you look at the various Eastern Rites of the Church, they are also on a yearly cycle. For instance, in the Byzantine Rite, the readings are always the same, with each Sunday during certain times of the year, like the Easter season, getting particular names. Like this Sunday, the Second Sunday after Easter, is always called the “Sunday of the Ointment Bearers” for obvious reasons. We don’t see this in the OF of the Latin Rite with the cycles of years A B and C. But after attending the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the EF of the Latin Rite more often, I’ve become more appreciative of the genius behind a one year cycle of readings and propers.

 

[Casilda]

I’ve become more appreciative of the genius behind a one year cycle of readings and propers.

Having transferred into the Eastern Catholic Syriac Maronite Church of Antioch, I appreciated this one year cycle as well. It quickly becomes familiar.

http://maronite-heritage.com/Calendar.php

I was so happy finding that the festive season of Pentecost as opposed to ordinary time is still recognized in Maronite liturgies. My Lutheran friends say they still hold to Pentecost season but they have the three year cycle of readings.

 

[ProVobis]

Yes, in fact some Sundays are identified by the first word(s) of the Introit. Gaudete, Quasi modo, etc.