Tridentine Mass in English?

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I realize that there’s no provision for a Tridentine Mass in English, but if one were to translate the rubrics and say the Mass in English, would the Mass still be valid?
 
themodgairsofte said:
I realize that there’s no provision for a Tridentine Mass in English, but if one were to translate the rubrics and say the Mass in English, would the Mass still be valid?
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Yes, but illicit. Since the Roman Canon already has multiple English translations, one can most certainly use one of those and be assured of a valid Mass. However, because the edition does not have an approved translation, any such Mass would be highly illicit. But it will most certainly be valid.

Not that it’s anything strange: Divine Worship: The Missal has both Novus Ordo and traditional elements and an Ordinariate priest can easily (and licitly) select the Tridentine options (prayers at the foot of the altar, traditional Offertory, last Gospel) and essentially end up with an English Tridentine Mass, with elements from the Book of Common Prayer added, all with full Church approval.
 
For ceremonial, the closest you would get would either be the Ordinariate Usage (Divine Worship) which has a lot of the Tridentine ceremonial and always on a Sunday uses the full Roman Canon or a Latin Novus Ordo. For the later, if it used the full Roman Canon and was Ad Orientem there is not a lot of difference to the Tridentine.
 
Another vote for the Ordinariate Mass. Its roots are in the Tridentine.
 
themodgairsofte said:
I realize that there’s no provision for a Tridentine Mass in English, but if one were to translate the rubrics and say the Mass in English, would the Mass still be valid?
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The rubrics require low tones, if not quiet tones, at the Consecration and other parts of the Mass. What good would it do to have them in English? It seems the contemplative nature of the Tridentine Mass would be most undermined.
 
Why??? It’s easy to learn enough Latin to follow the TLM. Just takes some repetition.

Plus there are missals with the vernacular on one side and Latin on the other. :cool:
 
Tomdstone said:
Ego non credo.
Latin est non facile. Est difficile ad intelligere Latin.
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Heh, well Latin is easier than you think. Perhaps you haven’t tried too much?

In any case, it is fairly simply to get a Latin-English missal and read along, using the Latin side to see where the priest is and using the English side for your own comprehension.

Or alternatively, you could just close the missal, close your eyes, and meditate, which is what the Tridentine Mass is optimized for anyay.
 
Don’t anyone get me wrong. I’m not complaining about the Latin, or anything like that. I have taken 9 years of Latin so far, and love the language, and Masses in the language.

All I’m interested in is whether or not it’d still be valid, and it looks like it would be. 🙂

@Tomdstone, Latina non difficile est intelligere, si te disceas illum. Item, non necesse est ponere “ad” prius “intelligere”, quia verbum “to” in Anglica amplexus est in “-ere” verbi. 😉
 
As others have said, valid but illicit. Ordinariate mass is the closest thing to the conditions you describe.
ProVobis said:
The rubrics require low tones, if not quiet tones, at the Consecration and other parts of the Mass. What good would it do to have them in English? It seems the contemplative nature of the Tridentine Mass would be most undermined.
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I’m very supportive of the use of liturgical language, but how does this make any sense? There are plenty of Apostolic traditions that currently do secret prayers in vernacular.
 
MorEphrem said:
As others have said, valid but illicit. Ordinariate mass is the closest thing to the conditions you describe.

I’m very supportive of the use of liturgical language, but how does this make any sense? There are plenty of Apostolic traditions that currently do secret prayers in vernacular.
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Including the Novus Ordo, by the way.

And what does it matter? Any priest who illicitly says the Tridentine Mass in English will probably say the Canon out loud anyway like the Anglicans did.
 
porthos11 said:
Yes, but illicit. Since the Roman Canon already has multiple English translations, one can most certainly use one of those and be assured of a valid Mass. However, because the edition does not have an approved translation, any such Mass would be highly illicit. But it will most certainly be valid.
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Hmmm.

According to DeDefectibus, it depends.
CHAPTER II DEFECTIVE FORMULA
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V. 1. DEFECTS may arise in respect of the formula, if anything is wanting to complete the actual words of consecration. The words of consecration, which are the formative principle of this Sacrament, are as follows: Hoc est enim Corpus meum; and: Hic est enim calix Sanguinis mei, novi et aeterni testamenti; mysterium fidei, qui pro vobis et pro multis effundetur in remissionem peccatorum. If any omission or alteration is made in the formula of consecration of the Body and Blood, involving a change of meaning, the consecration is invalid. An addition made without altering the meaning does not invalidate the consecration, but the Celebrant commits a mortal sin.
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ProVobis said:
Hmmm.

According to DeDefectibus, it depends.
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According to that, a translation to English would not invalidate it, because the meaning is the same (presuming a correct translation). But it would be a mortal sin for the priest.

Awful to think about. This thread is morbid. 😃
 
dshix said:
According to that, a translation to English would not invalidate it, because the meaning is the same (presuming a correct translation). But it would be a mortal sin for the priest.
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But if there are no approved translations…, oh, never mind. Let’s not even think English. 🙂
 
Tomdstone said:
I thought that there were translations approved by bishops of the Old Catholic church?
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If you’re referring to imprimaturs, all that means that is it is not doctrinally wrong, but it doesn’t say the meaning was not changed. All translations are at best imperfect. But then I don’t know the powers of Old Catholic church bishops.
 
themodgairsofte said:
…I have taken 9 years of Latin so far, and love the language…
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SRSLY? 👍

Zounds! Highest regards for your studies! What tenacity!
Of course, a question arises…
Will you have to seek out a new instructor for Latina X -or- will the Latina IX guy just keep on teaching at a higher class fee, charging more for the next course? 😃

I’m envisioning a class of two or three where the students are as proficient as the professor?!
 
ProVobis said:
If you’re referring to imprimaturs, all that means that is it is not doctrinally wrong, but it doesn’t say the meaning was not changed. All translations are at best imperfect. But then I don’t know the powers of Old Catholic church bishops.
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Here’s what the north american Old Roman Catholic webpage says:
“The Old Roman Catholic Church has continued to worship and to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass according to the ancient and revered Tridentine Rite as it has since its separation from the See of Rome. This Tridentine Rite is the common possession, heritage and patrimony of both Roman Catholic and Old Roman Catholic faithful, and is preserved with great love and care by the Old Roman Catholic Communion. While it was common in times past to celebrate this Rite of the Mass in the Latin language solely, the tradition and now immemorial custom of the Old Roman Catholic Church is to permit the Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular tongue while conforming in all things to the accurate translation of the ancient prayers and to observe the traditional rubrics in its celebration.”
naorcc.org/#!worship/c1u8n
 
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