Oh please, Modernism has absolutely nothing to do with the issue. Modernism has to do wtih doctrinal issues, not disciplinary issues. These are not doctrinal issues.Excellent point!
They do not want it to end and that is the whole modernist agenda.
Precisely, but as usual some modernist will post the contrary.
Exactly, your suspicions are valid. It is a modernist mind trick.:hypno:
Reverse the paradigm and think of that progress in the reverse: we canât go from 99% Novus Ordo back to the Tridentine Mass uniformly overnight. Things need to be done step by step.
The audible parts from the Offertory onward are:
I donât think it ever did or ever will. Every day more and more grammatical deviations are accepted. âIâ is now in the objective case and there seems to be no more subjunctive case, amongst other nun-torturing errors. And how long do you think the word âvouchsafeâ would remain in the translation?
Which translation would you prefer? You have some missals that you can compare? I canât seem to find one that follows word for word the vernacular readings the priest gives at the sermon. Personally I find that a little distracting.
Which translation would you prefer? You have some missals that you can compare? I canât seem to find one that follows word for word the vernacular readings the priest gives at the sermon.
What is Modernism?
I thought thatâs what I said. Sorry for the lack of clarity on my part.
I didnât know there was a 1962 English translation. Some publisher should have grabbed the copyrights.
Thatâs exactly the problem with wanting the vernacular! When this discussion begins it takes us right back to 40 years ago. We had the Latin, no one ever complained about it cause we grew up with it and the English was right there on the missal page. Converts didnât complain. We knew what the Latin meant. Then ICEL came in and gave us banal and distorted translations, leaving out the sacred element! The documents saying certain Latin prayers, etc. would remain, Gregorian chant was to have a place in the Mass - it was all ignored. Lord have mercy!
No prob, just to be clear on what Trent said.
I feel as though Iâm trapped in a bad dream. Kirk, youâve been to a Traditional Mass. If it was done properly, you would not have heard most of the Mass unless you were one of the servers. That is the way it is done. So can you please explain to me given that fact why it would make a difference to you if it was said in Latin or the vernacular. You will not hear it anyway, except for a few phrasesâŚI agree! But Iâd offer it in the vernacular, as well.
I would probably agree. Isnât the 62 edition that one that most people follow? Wouldnât it be the most readily available?
Because that could change, too, Palmas. As has been pointed out, itâs a rubric and a discipline. It isnât Sacred Tradition handed down from the Apostles and âlow toneâ is a relative term anyway. It could be âlow tonedâ and heard by virtually everyone in the congregation, esp. with amplification being what it is today.
Thank you, Brendan, Iâve been trying to clarify that for that poster for some time. Well done.
Modernism, as condemned by Pius X, was a rather vague description of the philosophical underpinnings of a movement around the end of the 19th and beginning fo the 20th century. Two of the more prominent Catholics condemned for Modernism were a French priest, Alfred Loisy (1857 - 1940, excommunicated 1908) and George Tyrell , and Irish Jesuit priest (1861 - 1909; expelled from the Jesuits 1906 and suspended for sacraments or excommunicated 1907).
So I take it that you were around for a significant amount of time before Vatican 2; however, your experience and mine are different; people did not understand why the Mass had to be in Latin. People may not have complained loudly, but the rapid acceptance of the vernacular I submit gives a very different picture than what you paint of what people thought about the Mass in Latin. The comments I hear were similar to âwhat took so long?â.
Most Catholics that I know who grew up in the pre-conciliar Church prefer the language change.
Most Catholics that I know who grew up in the pre-conciliar Church long for a return to a more sacred liturgy, and realize that the current mass is grossly inferior to the pre-conciliar mass in that respect.
