Tridentine Mass

[Psalm45_9]

Check out this link:

coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/

It is for the Missal of 1965, the first Missal that Vatican II instituted.

It seems that the SSPX hates this missal more then the missal of 1970.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Psalm45:9:

It seems that the SSPX hates this missal more then the missal of 1970.

Why?

 

[Psalm45_9]

Dr. Bombay:

Why?

I don’t really know. I think it is because it still resembles the Missal of 1962, but psalm 42 was removed. The priest says “Corpus Christi” to the faithful as they recieve communion instead of the old version. The Confetitor was shortened, that type of stuff. I’ve heard that some don’t like it because it is viewed as a missal to make way for the 1970 missal. I don’t think that was the intention of the Missal of 1965 at all.

 

[benedictusoblat]

JimG:

Just Summarizing here.
Reasons for Preferring TLM:

Gregorian Chant
Priest faces tabernacle.
No sign of peace.
Altar rail.
Bells.
Incense
Latin
More reverence.
Silence
Minimal socialization among worshipers.
People don’t use orans posture.
It’s a liturgy, not a show.
Same language everywhere in the world.
No communion in the hand
No altar girls
Kneeling for communion.
The last gospel.

I don’t attend a TLM Mass, but these are pretty much all excellent reasons.

The odd thing is that most of them could be used in and applied to the current Mass, except perhaps the position of the priest and the last gospel. (Altar girls & kneeling for communion would require approval by the USCCB). My own (Novus Ordo) parish uses altar rails and the bells, incense on occasion, and Latin for parts of the Mass, and is generally pretty reverent. It sure wouldn’t hurt to work on using more of these things in the current Mass.

(Actually I think that the TLM does have a sign of peace, but not for the congregation.)

All great reasons. But the most important reason may well be found in the Mass prayers themselves. Pick up both a modern missalette and a 1962 missal (or older, it’s okay). Read the prayers of the ordinary of the Mass quietly and meditatively. Read the most commonly used Eucharistic Prayer from the missalette, or even the 1st which is the most like the old Mass. When you are done, no one will need to tell you the real difference, it will be obvious.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

Psalm45:9:

Here are my reasons:

1. Gregorian Chant helps me focus on the mystery of the mass. Although Gregorain Chant can be used in the current mass and the current mass can be sung, most churches do not follow this.

G.C. is frequenty used during the Pauline Mass.
Psalm45:9:

1. The priest faces the tabernacle most of time, this demonstrates who we are focusing on in mass. If the current mass is celebrated correctly, it can be very reverent (EWTN). However with the priest facing me and all of the responses, my focus sometimes gets lost. Although the current liturgy can be celebrated with the priest facing the tabernacle, this is not usually followed.

The Pauline Mass may be celebrated ad orientum.
Psalm45:9:

1. There is no sign of peace. Although there is nothing theologically wrong with this, sometimes it turns the mass into a Hallmark commercial.

The one may omit the sign of peace during Pauline Mass. Thanks be to God that most do not.
Psalm45:9:

1. Use of the altar rail. Although the altar rail can still be used, most churches seldom follow this. I find kneeling much more reverent towards the Blessed Sacrament.

Do you feel “more Catholic?” The stated norm of the Catholic Church suits me just fine.
Psalm45:9:

1. Use of the bells. Although the bells are supposed to be used, some churches again do not follow this. The use of the bells in the tower ringing durring the Gloria has been surpressed to the Paschal Tridiuum (Which many churches do not do). In my mind nothing demonstrates the power of the Gloria more, then the bells in the tower ringing.

Sanctus bells may be rung during the celebration of the Pauline Mass. The bells are not rung during the Gloria year round in the Tridentine Mass.
Psalm45:9:

1. Use of incense. Incense is a pysical symbol of our prayers ascending to God. Again, although its use has not been surpressed, most churches do not use it, restricting it only to funerals. Luckily my pastor uses it on Solemn ocassions.

Incense may be used at the Pauline Mass.
Psalm45:9:

1. Use of Latin. The use of Latin demonstrates what the word Catholic means. Although the current mass can be celebrated compleatly in Latin, again, most churches do not do this. Luckily at our high mass, we still sing the traditional Kyrie, Gloria, and Agnus Dei. I’m trying to get them to sing the Nicene Creed next.

Latin may be used at the Pauline Mass.
Psalm45:9:

That’s pretty much my preference. Note: all of the things I prefer at mass can be used in the current liturgy, but most do not do this. So until there’s a church by me that does this, I remain in my preference.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

cargopilot:

Boy, that does pretty much cover it. Bravo.

I would like to add the much greater reverence found at the TLM. I’ll admit, I’d love to find a so-called Novus Ordo Mass that has the behavior found at the TLM. After the TLM, I really feel that I’ve been to Mass.

Try watching Mass anytime on EWTN… What you won’t find however is the bitter “I hate the modernistic NO Mass” commentary on the steps of the chapel, however…

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

1. the TLM requires respect and reverance without asking.
2. it is a ceremony, not a show
3. ONE CAN UNDERSTAND THE MASS BETTER BECAUSE NO MATTER WHERE A CATHOLIC GOES IN THE WORLD IN THE LATIN RITE THE LAGUAGE OF THE MASS IS THE SAME UNLIKE WHAT THE SUPPORTERS OF THE NOVUS ORDO SAID WOULD BE BETTER.
4. communion is NOT ALLOWED IN THE HAND.
5. no altar girls
6. silence
7. the protestant reformers hated it
8. CODIFIED BY A SAINT.
9. The beautiful last Gospel
10. knelling for communion
11. Awesome music

Are you serious?

 

[betrublu2Him]

dumspirospero:

First, I would like to echo the sentiments of my friends above…they pointed out some excellent reasons and I agree with them…Secondly though, I would like to point out we are beating a dead horse to death…this is like the gazzillionth post about the preference of the TLM over the NO or vice-versa.

i know you mean well…about the beating the horse…but, really, i am new to all of this and the more i read, the better! just think, too, some people like myself may not get the opportunity to read the same old questions like this one. i have found that i learn more about my faith, my church, my religion just by reading posts like these…

 

[dumspirospero]

I understand…good luck on your journey for the answers to all the questions you have…let me know if I can help you in any way along the way

i know you mean well…about the beating the horse…but, really, i am new to all of this and the more i read, the better! just think, too, some people like myself may not get the opportunity to read the same old questions like this one. i have found that i learn more about my faith, my church, my religion just by reading posts like these…

 

[betrublu2Him]

dumspirospero:

I understand…good luck on your journey for the answers to all the questions you have…let me know if I can help you in any way along the way

Thank you! :bowdown2:

 

[Scotty_PGH]

Pariah Pirana:

Try watching Mass anytime on EWTN… What you won’t find however is the bitter “I hate the modernistic NO Mass” commentary on the steps of the chapel, however…

Nobody in this thread said anything about hating the NO Mass. What an awful accusation to make. Thanks for adding nothing to this thread.

Posts like this make me :yawn:

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

Before thinking of the Tridentine Mass as some sort of silver-bullet, please consider the following from a senior priest:

"The Old Mass

---

Stop! Take off the rose-colored glasses and face a reality of 20/20 hindsight. I began serving “the old Mass” in 1939. I am now 73 years old, 45 years a priest, having begun my seminary studies in 1950. As a kid knowing the perfect recitation of all the Latin Mass responses, we dealt with mumbled praying of many priests. In the old days there were parishes that were known as “whiz churches”: Sunday Mass, in and out in 20 minutes.

Young priests were told the motto: “Get them out fast”. In college I was too embarrassed to invite my dormitory roommates to Sunday Mass - the blatant lack of piety was a scandal. Rarely do I look back and remember edifying experiences as being the norm. But, yes, there were some.

In my experience today the gains outshine the losses. Yes, I know where craziness exists and horror stories are a fact. But the gains were tremendous. Yes, we are still growing/becoming what we should be. Change begets excesses – the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, yet eventually resting in the middle… The recent writings and promulgations of our Holy Father give us hope, e.g., the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (USCCB Website), Sacrosanctum Concilium, and Ecclesia de Eucharistia.

Don’t despair. If there is craziness in your parish, pray for your bishop, write lovingly to the offending priest and copy it to the diocesan liturgical committee. Don’t you be crazy too – document accurately the observation of misdirection.

Having been a pastor for 27 years, in a variety of multicultural parishes, I have witnessed, in these changing times, the evolution of a profoundly rich contemporary Mass that is celebrated within the rules.

Would I go back to pre-Vatican II days? No way. I reverence the past, but live and work in the richness of the present, championing orthodoxy and “working to beat hell!”

Be patient. Treat all with charity, pray unceasingly and know that truth will conquer. As the Adoremus Bulletin tells us: “The Holy Father asks bishops and liturgists to build on the ‘riches’ of the reform while also pruning ‘serious abuses’ with ‘prudent firmness’”. (“The Foundations of Liturgical Reform”, March 2004)

Father Andre J. Meluskey
Senior Priest, St. Patrick Church
Carlisle, Pennsylvania"

adoremus.org/0704ReadersForum.html****

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

Scotty PGH:

Nobody in this thread said anything about hating the NO Mass. What an awful accusation to make. Thanks for adding nothing to this thread.

Posts like this make me :yawn:

Unfortunately such comments are all too common outside many “tlm churches.”

It’s remarkable to me that people refer to different Catholic parishes as “tlm churches” or “NO churches.” I honestly don’t know if it’s simple ignorance, or if they are trying to infer something far more corrosive…

 

[tcraig]

Genesis315:

I have a much easier time focusing at the TLM, especially on the Real Presence. The new Mass was supposed to foster active participation, but it has the opposite effect for me. My mind tends to wander. I feel like I’m just waiting to receive Communion, but at the TLM I feel like everything is building up towards the pinnacle and it makes Communion all the more special. Time just flies at the TLM (and it’s usually longer than the regular Masses I go to).

It also just feels like I am being a part of something bigger than myself. It’s so different than the rest of the world, it just feels more ancient and sacred–it’s like an escape from the world for a little bit to just be with Christ. Not that the current form of the Mass is not sacred, it’s just the TLM’s sacredness really shines through with it’s more mystical feel I guess.

I also like how the priest faces the same way as the people. We all face Christ. I especially like how when He holds up the Host and Chalice at the consecration he holds them up to Christ on the Cross.

Finally, I love the chant during High Mass and the prayers after low Mass.

I would agree with all of these reasons. Another big one (for me) is that the TLM bears no resemblance to my former Methodist service, which the NO does. The NO feels very protestant to me.

Something else about the TLM is the bond that I feel with so many other Catholics who have gone before me. It’s one of the reasons I stuck with the King James Bible when I was a protestant - I didn’t necessarily believe that it was a superior translation (though certainly a beautiful one), but I liked the “connection” I had with other Christians who had read it and loved it before me. At the TLM, I feel a similar connection with the many who have gone on before me. As Genesis315 stated, it’s “something bigger”.

Finally, I feel that the TLM fits the theology of the Church better than the NO. I don’t really know how to explain this, but it’s more than the music, the Latin … everything. I simply believe that the TLM communicates that it is really and truly Jesus Christ before you, upon the altar, much more effectively than the NO.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pariah Pirana:

G.C. is frequenty used during the Pauline Mass.

The Pauline Mass may be celebrated ad orientum.

The one may omit the sign of peace during Pauline Mass. Thanks be to God that most do not.

Do you feel “more Catholic?” The stated norm of the Catholic Church suits me just fine.

Sanctus bells may be rung during the celebration of the Pauline Mass. The bells are not rung during the Gloria year round in the Tridentine Mass.

Incense may be used at the Pauline Mass.

Latin may be used at the Pauline Mass.

All of which I said, did you read my posts? From my very first post, way at the bottom:
Psalm45:9:

Note: all of the things I prefer at mass can be used in the current liturgy, but most do not do this. So until there’s a church by me that does this, I remain in my preference.

I said until a church near me does all of this, I remain in my preference, the 1962 missal.

 

[GodBlessJoanie]

WOW!

I wish I had a Tridentine Mass close to where I live. You are blessed!

 

[Psalm45_9]

All of my quotes are from my very first post in window #2
Pariah Pirana:

G.C. is frequenty used during the Pauline Mass.

Psalm45:9:

Although Gregorain Chant can be used in the current mass and the current mass can be sung, most churches do not follow this.

The church I attended while at college never used Gregorian chant.
Pariah Pirana:

The Pauline Mass may be celebrated ad orientum.

Psalm45:9:

Although the current liturgy can be celebrated with the priest facing the tabernacle, this is not usually followed.

Pariah Pirana:

The one may omit the sign of peace during Pauline Mass. Thanks be to God that most do not.

I did forget to mention that, I have attended a NO mass that did not have the sign of peace.
Pariah Pirana:

Do you feel “more Catholic?” The stated norm of the Catholic Church suits me just fine.

No, because the norm of the Eastern Rites has always been to recieve standing. However, being a Latin Rite Catholic, I have found kneeling before the blessed sacrament much more reverent. The sign of peace is not used in the Eastern Rites though, should I tell them that they’re less Catholic then me?
Pariah Pirana:

Sanctus bells may be rung during the celebration of the Pauline Mass. The bells are not rung during the Gloria year round in the Tridentine Mass.

Which is what I said, most churches do not do this.
Pariah Pirana:

Incense may be used at the Pauline Mass.

Psalm45:9:

Again, although its use has not been surpressed, most churches do not use it, restricting it only to funerals. Luckily my pastor uses it on Solemn ocassions.

Pariah Pirana:

Latin may be used at the Pauline Mass.

Psalm45:9:

Although the current mass can be celebrated compleatly in Latin, again, most churches do not do this.

Now with all of that said what is the topic of this thread?

marty1818:

I was wondering, for all those who prefer the Tridentine mass over the Novus Ordo mass, why this is.

Psalm45:9:

Note: all of the things I prefer at mass can be used in the current liturgy, but most do not do this. So until there’s a church by me that does this, I remain in my preference.

This is not a thread over if the current liturgy better then the older liturgy. This is over why people prefer the Missal of 1962. My reasons were because although the N.O. did not surpress my preferences, many Novos Ordo churches in my area do not have all of these only the Indult Tridentine parish.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pariah Pirana:

Before thinking of the Tridentine Mass as some sort of silver-bullet, please consider the following from a senior priest:

"The Old Mass

Stop! Take off the rose-colored glasses and face a reality of 20/20 hindsight. I began serving “the old Mass” in 1939. I am now 73 years old, 45 years a priest, having begun my seminary studies in 1950. As a kid knowing the perfect recitation of all the Latin Mass responses, we dealt with mumbled praying of many priests. In the old days there were parishes that were known as “whiz churches”: Sunday Mass, in and out in 20 minutes.

Young priests were told the motto: “Get them out fast”. In college I was too embarrassed to invite my dormitory roommates to Sunday Mass - the blatant lack of piety was a scandal. Rarely do I look back and remember edifying experiences as being the norm. But, yes, there were some.

In my experience today the gains outshine the losses. Yes, I know where craziness exists and horror stories are a fact. But the gains were tremendous. Yes, we are still growing/becoming what we should be. Change begets excesses – the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, yet eventually resting in the middle… The recent writings and promulgations of our Holy Father give us hope, e.g., the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (USCCB Website), Sacrosanctum Concilium, and Ecclesia de Eucharistia.

Don’t despair. If there is craziness in your parish, pray for your bishop, write lovingly to the offending priest and copy it to the diocesan liturgical committee. Don’t you be crazy too – document accurately the observation of misdirection.

Having been a pastor for 27 years, in a variety of multicultural parishes, I have witnessed, in these changing times, the evolution of a profoundly rich contemporary Mass that is celebrated within the rules.

Would I go back to pre-Vatican II days? No way. I reverence the past, but live and work in the richness of the present, championing orthodoxy and “working to beat hell!”

Be patient. Treat all with charity, pray unceasingly and know that truth will conquer. As the Adoremus Bulletin tells us: “The Holy Father asks bishops and liturgists to build on the ‘riches’ of the reform while also pruning ‘serious abuses’ with ‘prudent firmness’”. (“The Foundations of Liturgical Reform”, March 2004)

Father Andre J. Meluskey
Senior Priest, St. Patrick Church
Carlisle, Pennsylvania"

adoremus.org/0704ReadersForum.html****

I know where I saw this before, the user Dominvs Vobiscvm posted this. Actually the sentiment seems almost to be the same. But this thread is not over if the older liturgy is better then the current, it is over why do people prefer the older liturgy.

 

[lyoncoeur]

Pariah Pirana:

G.C. is frequenty used during the Pauline Mass.

The Pauline Mass may be celebrated ad orientum.

The one may omit the sign of peace during Pauline Mass. Thanks be to God that most do not.

Do you feel “more Catholic?” The stated norm of the Catholic Church suits me just fine.

Sanctus bells may be rung during the celebration of the Pauline Mass. The bells are not rung during the Gloria year round in the Tridentine Mass.

Incense may be used at the Pauline Mass.

Latin may be used at the Pauline Mass.

Pariah Pirana, et, al;

This post describes the chief {in my opinion} benefit to the TLM, there are much fewer “may be’s” & “frequently used’s” in the TLM it is set in stone, as it were, and little variation…this is part of what I find comforting…and UNIVERSAL about it.

When I go to a TLM I KNOW that I am praying WITH and in UNISON with everyone else there, AND I also KNOW that wherever else the TLM is being celebrated that day, it is the same as it is in my little parish. No flipping from Eucharistic prayer I, II, III or IV, no backtracking the readings only to realise that the lector has chosen {or been directed} to read the short, medium or full version of the scripture readings.

just my .02

Cheers!

 

[Santa_Cruz]

lyoncoeur:

Pariah Pirana, et, al;

No flipping from Eucharistic prayer I, II, III or IV, no backtracking the readings only to realise that the lector has chosen {or been directed} to read the short, medium or full version of the scripture readings.

:yup: Yep another reason I love the TM Mass, but don’t misunderstand me.
I attend the TM Mass on Sundays but I attend the Sat.Mass at an NO Church. Sort of like supporting your Home Town Band.

My problem if finding a daily mass that is early enough for me to attend. I visited a church today that has a 6:15 am Mass, but when I walked in …there was a bowl set out and it was filled with the Eucharist. Oh My GOD, the body of Christ in a bowl like potatoe chips or something.

I couldn’t stay I was too upset.