Tridentine or Novus Ordo: Which is 'Older'?

[Sailka]

:coffeeread: The beautiful Tridentine Mass is perhaps too often called the Traditional Mass, even by Bishops. But how many know that it was formulated by the Council of Trent, to replace the too many ethnic and national and local versions, now threatened by the Reformation? It was the novus ordo’ of the 1500’s, but left out the “Kiss of Peace”/Sign of Peace begun by the Apostles.
Vivat Jesus Tony :nun1:

 

[MikeDunphy]

You are mistaken. The Ordinary of the 1570 Missal was almost identical to that of 1474. It was not formulated by the Council of Trent.

A short history of the Traditional Mass can be read online here.

:coffeeread: The beautiful Tridentine Mass is perhaps too often called the Traditional Mass, even by Bishops. But how many know that it was formulated by the Council of Trent, to replace the too many ethnic and national and local versions, now threatened by the Reformation? It was the novus ordo’ of the 1500’s, but left out the “Kiss of Peace”/Sign of Peace begun by the Apostles.

• Vivat Jesus Tony :nun1:

 

[Freshman88]

:coffeeread: The beautiful Tridentine Mass is perhaps too often called the Traditional Mass, even by Bishops. But how many know that it was formulated by the Council of Trent, to replace the too many ethnic and national and local versions, now threatened by the Reformation? It was the novus ordo’ of the 1500’s, but left out the “Kiss of Peace”/Sign of Peace begun by the Apostles.
Vivat Jesus Tony :nun1:

You’ve got to be kidding me.

Beyond the simple fact that this post will do nothing but inflame an already overly emotional forum, it has no references what so ever. What exactly are you basing this highly-skewed and deformed interpretation of liturgical events on?

Perhaps I’ll take your post seriously if you back up your post with some kind of sources.

 

[Rawb]

I don’t actually care which is older. That’s not the point with any Traditionalist I’ve ever spoken with.

I care about reverence, unity in worship, giving our best to God, and true Catholic teaching on all subjects, including the controversial ones.

 

[Sailka]

You’ve got to be kidding me.

Beyond the simple fact that this post will do nothing but inflame an already overly emotional forum, it has no references what so ever. What exactly are you basing this highly-skewed and deformed interpretation of liturgical events on?

Perhaps I’ll take your post seriously if you back up your post with some kind of sources.

                                                                                          Thank you so much for Questiong!  :thumbsup: .     Our tripled size This year new very traditional Parish   has been very  heavy on The Mass and its  History  >  The Last Supper Feast.     
                                                                                           The documentation of earliest Last  Supper  Feast  (as I call it) is in the remarkeable, documented as well as possible  *Mass of the early Christians*,   Mike Aquilina,  $12.95,  Our Sunday Visitor  Published a couple of years ago,  sold out.  

                                                                                           Among other points in that paperback:      The first "Last Supper  Feasts"  and Consecrations were by the Apostles only, as Our Lord  ordained only them.    Later,  as the Church grew  rapidly, the Apostles chose, ordained  new Bishops,  who allegedly about the year 100  needed many more Ordained in the 7 Apostolic Powers  assistants, so  did so to  their assistants, the  'Presbyters', later called Priests.

The LARCUM (Lutheran/Anglican/Rom Cath/United Methodist Conference of Virginia, with 11 Bishops was Very educational ecumenically last Winter. I asked the Catholic Liturgical Expert Priest How the Tridentine Mass originated. He explained, as have other Priest experts, that there was a problem in 1500’s besides the Reformation: too many national and local variations on the ‘Roman Mass’. The answer to both problems was the required universally in Latin Tridentine Mass, Very precise. Similarly said on EWTN, and locally.

I asked where the Sign of Peace* came from, of 50th Anniversary Priesthood 32 years Vatican Seminary professor Fr Henschey (sic) few years ago. He answered simply “from the Apostles”. Similarly so said on EWTN, few years ago, perhaps by Fr Pacwa, SJ, that the Apostles recognized the natural animosity/jealousy among a few at the “Last Supper Feasts”, and so began the Kiss of Peace of the Middle East Custom greeting, still done at Papal Masses. **
Vatican II researched the Earliest Masses heaviliy, (I Listened On Media as that was being done about 1970)) and brought back into the Novus Ordo** Mass not only the Westernized sign of peace handshake, but also some earliest portions of the Priests’ prayers from the First 2 Centuries in the (oldest?) “New Mass”. Those Priest’s prayers of earliest centuries are documented at length in the Above Book.
In General, it has always been said that the essentials of the Catholic Mass and Eastern Divine Liturgy have always been the Same: Liturgy of the Word (carried forward from the Last Supper Sadar (sic) very ritualized meal, and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
Additional documentation and comments are very welcome. Have felt sorry for ‘tradionalists’ who fought the far more ancient, far more misnomered “Novus Ordo” as heretical change, etc. RCC and Bishops know Best, not us know-it-sometimes amateurs. :tiphat: Vivat Jesus A true traditional Tony*

 

[Sailka]

I don’t actually care which is older. That’s not the point with any Traditionalist I’ve ever spoken with.

I care about reverence, unity in worship, giving our best to God, and true Catholic teaching on all subjects, including the controversial ones.

                                                                                           Exactly, brother in Christ. It has been said that the two greatest gifts to mankind by Our Lord  have been   the "Last Supper Feast"  (Mass)  and the Eucharist, with Confession the qualifier.  These from First Century, and the hallmark of  of Eastern,  and Roman Catholic Liturgy,  all containing the same elements in very historic manner.

Exactly! Every “Traditionalist” have talked with online has resisted any evidence, and blocked my true evidence. They had their own room, not permitting any comment other than their ideas. Are sometimes called the Pius the 13th Society. We try to respect their opinions, but expect respect for ours and the Magesterium.

Vivat Jesus Tony

 

[Rawb]

The LARCUM (Lutheran/Anglican/Rom Cath/United Methodist Conference of Virginia, with 11 Bishops was Very educational ecumenically last Winter. I asked the Catholic Liturgical Expert Priest How the Tridentine Mass originated. He explained, as have other Priest experts, that there was a problem in 1500’s besides the Reformation: too many national and local variations on the ‘Roman Mass’. The answer to both problems was the required universally in Latin Tridentine Mass, Very precise. Similarly said on EWTN, and locally.

This is a very dubious source. Not one that we’d be able to double check, and the priest was involved in ecumenical talks. All experience I’ve had with contemporary ecumenical priests and liturgical experts would have me request an alternative source for this claim.

I asked where the Sign of Peace came from, of 50th Anniversary Priesthood 32 years Vatican Seminary professor Fr Henschey (sic) few years ago. He answered simply “from the Apostles”. Similarly so said on EWTN, few years ago, perhaps by Fr Pacwa, SJ, that the Apostles recognized the natural animosity/jealousy among a few at the “Last Supper Feasts”, and so began the Kiss of Peace of the Middle East Custom greeting, still done at Papal Masses.

Also dubious, but one can easily find reference to a precursor to the sign of peace here: newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

which is St. Justin Martyr’s “First Apology” written about 66AD. A quote:

Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss.

Shows the precursor to the Sign of Peace, though then it was a kiss. (Emphasis mine, btw)

Additional documentation and comments are very welcome. Have felt sorry for ‘tradionalists’ who fought the far more ancient, far more misnomered “Novus Ordo” as heretical change, etc. RCC and Bishops know Best, not us know-it-sometimes amateurs. Vivat Jesus A true traditional Tony

Most, if not all, the Traditionalists on this forum do not believe the Novus Ordo is heretical. We prefer the older rites, including the Tridentine Mass, not because it more accurately portrays the Mass said by the early Church, but for a variety of reasons, including reverence, teachings, and beauty.

 

[Sailka]

I don’t actually care which is older. That’s not the point with any Traditionalist I’ve ever spoken with.

I care about reverence, unity in worship, giving our best to God, and true Catholic teaching on all subjects, including the controversial ones.

                                                                                           How  well you describe the works of the Holy Spirit, in detail, Sir, on your great website!                                                               And it is Lord's 2000 year old Church, His Sacraments, His inspired Liturgies, everything  Catholic that  brings toughest Men to tears.    
                                                                                          Vivat Jesus                         
                   Tony                      :crossrc:

 

[CassiusLonginus]

This is a joke, right?

 

[I_Believe]

:coffeeread: The beautiful Tridentine Mass is perhaps too often called the Traditional Mass, even by Bishops. But how many know that it was formulated by the Council of Trent, to replace the too many ethnic and national and local versions, now threatened by the Reformation? It was the novus ordo’ of the 1500’s, but left out the “Kiss of Peace”/Sign of Peace begun by the Apostles.
Vivat Jesus Tony :nun1:

The purpose was to establish a universal Rite. Exception was made to allow the mendicant orders to retain their Rites. The term Traditional Mass was only used after the NO was introduced.

 

[eelpis]

The EF is from the 6th century the OF is from the 60’s (as are the hippies, who are old now )

 

[patrick457]

:coffeeread: The beautiful Tridentine Mass is perhaps too often called the Traditional Mass, even by Bishops. But how many know that it was formulated by the Council of Trent, to replace the too many ethnic and national and local versions, now threatened by the Reformation? It was the novus ordo’ of the 1500’s, but left out the “Kiss of Peace”/Sign of Peace begun by the Apostles.
Vivat Jesus Tony :nun1:

In a sense, the Forma Extraordinaria was the Forma Ordinaria of its time; on the other sense, it is not quite so.

The Pax was actually present in many rites/uses during the Medieval period. And it disappeared from common use not only in the Pian Form, but also in the Eastern Rites as well. The Catholic Encyclopedia tells us:

From a very early date, also, the abuses to which this form of salutation might lead were very carefully guarded against. Both in the East and the West women and men were separated in the assemblies of the faithful, and the kiss of peace was given only by women to women and by men to men.

Then in about the twelfth or thirteenth century the use of the instrumentum pacis, or osculatorium, known in English as the “pax-board” or “pax-brede”, was gradually introduced. This was a little plaque of metal, ivory, or wood, generally decorated with some pious carving and provided with a handle, which was first brought to the altar for the celebrant to kiss at the proper place in the Mass and then brought to each of the congregation in turn at the altar rails. But even this practice in course of time died out, and at the present day the Pax is only given at High Mass, and is hardly anywhere communicated to the congregation. The celebrant kisses the corporal spread upon the altar (he used formerly in many local rites to kiss the sacred Host Itself) and then, placing his hands upon the arms of the deacon, he presents his left cheek to the deacon’s left cheek but without actually touching it. At the same time he pronounces the words Pax tecum (Peace be with thee); to which the deacon replies, Et cum spiritu tuo (And with thy spirit). The deacon then conveys the salute to the sub-deacon, and the subdeacon to the canons or clergy in the stalls.

The Western Church, however, has not been the only one to discover that the ceremony of the Pax could not be decorously maintained when manners had grown less austere. Among the Greeks hardly a trace of the original salute is preserved. Just before the Creed, which itself precedes the Anaphora, the celebrant says, “Peace be to all”, and then he kisses the gifts (veiled), while at the same time the deacon kisses his own orarion, or stole. In the Syrian rites, the deacon touches the priest’s hands, then moves his own hands down his face and gives them to be touched by someone else. In this way the salute is passed on. Dean Stanley declares that in the Coptic Rite the kiss is still passed among the people from lip to lip, but the truth seems to be that each one merely bows to his neighbour and touches his hand.

As an aside, I’ve once done a series of posts on the Roman Mass as laid out in the Ordo Romanus I (late 6th-early 7th century?) and in the St. Amand Ordo (from the 9th century). The whole thing is out here.

 

[Freshman88]

                                                                                           The documentation of earliest Last  Supper  Feast  (as I call it) is in the remarkeable, documented as well as possible  *Mass of the early Christians*,   Mike Aquilina,  $12.95,  Our Sunday Visitor  Published a couple of years ago,  sold out.

 

[Sailka]

This is a joke, right?

Where is any joke in my Documentation in #5? Name one joke, brother. Calling the 1500’s Tridentine Mass oldest? Sounds kinda new to me. What about First 2 Centuries?
Vivat Jesus :harp:
Tony

 

[Freshman88]

Calling the 1500’s Tridentine Mass oldest?

Are you saying that some think that it is the oldest when compared to just the NO? Or the oldest of all the liturgies?

 Sounds kinda new  to me.  What about First 2 Centuries?

What exactly about the first two centuries?

 

[cam100]

OK, people, let’s not get into a big flame-throwing fight here.

The beautiful Tridentine Mass is perhaps too often called the Traditional Mass, even by Bishops. But how many know that it was formulated by the Council of Trent, to replace the too many ethnic and national and local versions, now threatened by the Reformation? It was the novus ordo’ of the 1500’s, but left out the “Kiss of Peace”/Sign of Peace begun by the Apostles.

It is true that the Tridentine mass is not identical to the mass as celebrated by the first Christians. The Tridentine mass is a product of organic development, as Pope Benedict XVI has explained. That’s a good thing. But to call it the “Novus Ordo of the 1500’s” is quite an exaggeration. The thing about the Novus Ordo that bothers many traditional Catholics is that it was created by a committee, rather than being the product of organic development. Yes, it does bring back some things from the ancient past that were left behind by the Tridentine mass. It also has a lot of new creations. It’s not simply an ancient form that has been re-established.

With regard to the Tridentine Mass supplanting other forms, it should be mentioned that only forms less than 200 years old were actually forced to be replaced by the Tridentine missal. The reason for this was that the ideas of the Protestant Reformation were beginning to taint local variations of the mass. Older forms were permitted to remain, but over time they were mostly replaced out of convenience.

So, the fact is that there is some truth behind your declarations, but I think you’ve taken it a bit too far.

 

[Sailka]

Are you saying that some think that it is the oldest when compared to just the NO? Or the oldest of all the liturgies?
What exactly about the first two centuries?

:coffeeread: Well, Yes. Apparently all Bishops and traditionalISTS label Tridentine Mass as traditional, ignoring that the Vatican II researched heavily Novus Ordo brought back some of the Earliest liturgy, prayers by the Priest from the First 2 Centuries. Like theSign/Kiss of Peace initiatiated by the Apostles, apparenntly. The Tridentine Mass had no congregational Sign of Peace.

My # 5 also references some earliest Mass prayers of the Priest, abbreviated from those in the first 2 Centuries, brought back in the 1970’s Novus Ordo.
Tony

 

[RyanML]

Pope Pius XII offered his opinion about returning to more primitive forms of liturgy in his encyclical Mediator Dei:

1. Assuredly it is a wise and most laudable thing to return in spirit and affection to the sources of the sacred liturgy. For research in this field of study, by tracing it back to its origins, contributes valuable assistance towards a more thorough and careful investigation of the significance of feast-days, and of the meaning of the texts and sacred ceremonies employed on their occasion. But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform; were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer’s body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See.

1. Clearly no sincere Catholic can refuse to accept the formulation of Christian doctrine more recently elaborated and proclaimed as dogmas by the Church, under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit with abundant fruit for souls, because it pleases him to hark back to the old formulas. No more can any Catholic in his right senses repudiate existing legislation of the Church to revert to prescriptions based on the earliest sources of canon law. Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circumstances and situation.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Pope Pius XII offered his opinion about returning to more primitive forms of liturgy in his encyclical Mediator Dei:

Encyclical vs. A Constitution of the 21st Ecumenical Council of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Hmmmm…

Just a thought.

 

[Freshman88]

:coffeeread: Well, Yes. Apparently all Bishops and traditionalISTS label Tridentine Mass as traditional, ignoring that the Vatican II

First, I’m going to assume you mean Traditionalist bishops when you say all bishops. Anyway, one thing you have to learn is that “traditionalist” is a very loose term, and there is no consenus among traditionalists on many issues.

Secondly, how does labelling the Tridentine mass as “traditional” ignore Vatican II? Did Vatican II say otherwise?

researched heavily Novus Ordo brought back some of the Earliest liturgy, prayers by the Priest from the First 2 Centuries. Like theSign/Kiss of Peace initiatiated by the Apostles, apparenntly. The Tridentine Mass had no congregational Sign of Peace.

Including ancient practices does make the mass itself ancient. The fact remains that the NO was made by a committee in the 60s.

My # 5 also references some earliest Mass prayers of the Priest, abbreviated from those in the first 2 Centuries, brought back in the 1970’s Novus Ordo. Tony

There are also ancient prayers to be found in the Tridentine mass as well.