Tridentine or Novus Ordo: Which is 'Older'?

[palmas85]

Thank you for doing my thinking for me, but I think differently than you.
Why do you feel my appreciation of the 1960 year old Apostolic kiss/sign of peace is Morbid?

Where is the Sign of Peace in the 1500’s or 1962 Tridentine Mass?

                                                                                  Why do you opine that the way the Sign of Peace as 'still  done'  in the Tridentine Mass probably a lot closer to the way it probably was done originally?

Why do you call the Tridentine Mass Traditional? What about the 1500 years earlier Masses?

How do you venture that the Intercessory prayers of earliest times were very different from those now?

Lol. Speculation is Free. But why nitpick? I don’t have time to pick nits. Studying Far more informative, over here. :dancing: :extrahappy:

                                                                                           Vivat Jesus.

Tony

I’m sure you do. You have proven it.

 

[Sailka]

Sailka;4214681:

Well, you have proven that you have no knowledge or very limited knowledge of the Traditional Mass my friend. Trust me the Kiss of Peace is there, I promise you that.

Your fascination is pretty obvious. It is really the only drum that you have been banging in this whole debate.

I nitpick when people decide to enter these forums with a pretty obvious agenda and then prove that their knowledge of the subject that they are pursuing is limited at best and outright lacking at worst,

                                                                                           Hello again, friend. Felt ignored you not opining my nits.

Have year plus education in Pre and Post 1962 Tridentine Mass. Not including years experience in both.

                                                                                           Where is the Sign of Peace in the Tridentine Mass? I usher it weeekly now, and remember the  Pre-1962  Tridentine  Mass.

What is my Agenda? My Reason for all my posts are to Inform, correct errors, and help others. Do you feel am radical Novus Ordoer liberal, or socialist?

Nationally recognizede Several times in correcting top name News sources.

Am more than glad to publically apologize for any Fundamental Error posting of mine, not including typos. Don’t know how to type. (Don’t tell anyone.)
Tony

 

[I_Believe]

What is my Agenda? My Reason for all my posts are to Inform, correct errors, and help others. Tony

Help me then brother. Got any ibuprofen ? I’m getting a headache.

This is one crazy thread.

Are you trying to define the word traditional ?

 

[Sailka]

Help me then brother. Got any ibuprofen ? I’m getting a headache.

This is one crazy thread.

Are you trying to define the word traditional ?

                                                                                           Good try.   We're seeing how many different ways we can use traditional.    Your ideas?   We're just having fun.  Too  serious gives you  headaches  
                                                 :bowdown2:              Tony

 

[CassiusLonginus]

Where is the Sign of Peace in the Tridentine Mass?

You mean, in spite of your years of training and experience that you don’t know??? How is this possible with your supposed qualifications? I think I know the answer, however…

What is my Agenda? My Reason for all my posts are to Inform, correct errors, and help others.

And yet your scholarship is laughable and you do nothing but muddy the waters. You have no idea what you’re talking about, and most of your claims are just downright false. I have already pointed out your errors in my previous posts, as have other posters. “Inform” and “correct errors” and “help others”??? At this rate, maybe you should attemp “keeping mouth shut” and “maybe quit lying about so-called qualifications”

Do you feel am radical Novus Ordoer liberal, or socialist?

No, but rather that you were deceived by somebody, or are trying to deceive us.

Am more than glad to publically apologize for any Fundamental Error posting of mine

Then maybe you should go back and re-read poeple’s responses to your ludicrous claims. Obviously you don’t know the origins of the traditional Mass, you are oblivious of the fact that it is more than five hundred years old, and are clueless that 99% of the Novus Ordo isn’t more than about 40 years old, among other things.

 

[patrick457]

                        How are we shoulder to shoulder with the Priest in Tridentine?     We only look at his back, non-participatingly, trying to find in English what he is praying so beautifully in Latin.

Sailka,
First of all, I appreciate your thoughts on posting these up.

However, if I may disagree with you, the custom of ‘the priest having his back on the people’ is rather common on ALL liturgies. The Eastern (and Western) liturgies are celebrated with the priest facing the same direction as the people (my preferred term for it). The priest does not face the people, rather like them he is facing on the East.

Plus, we’re not the only ones scrambling to find out what the priest is saying. Even during the early centuries people who spoke street or ‘vulgar’ Latin would be puzzled at the liturgy and its form of Latin (Ecclesiastical Latin, which is quite similar to yet quite different from Classical Latin) which is quite distinct from what they use in everyday life. Over time this distinction would become more and more apparent as vulgar Latin evolved into the Romance languages in southern Europe and gave way to Germanic languages in the north, while literary Latin became more and more ‘debased’, so to speak.

(3) The Novus Ordo of 1960’s research and liturgical modification was not centered on “modernizing”, but on making the Mass Understandable, few knowing Latin, and bring back earliest rites mentioned in (2).(3) The Mass and Eucharist are the 2 greatest gifts of the Holy Spirit that Our Lord gave us, and Recognized such from the Last Supper itself. (4) Recognizing what is In the Novus Ordo and their histories makes the Very complex Tridentine Far more emotionally amnd spiritually enriching to me. Think of who, why the “Sign of Peace” was initiated. Helps.

1.) The Forma Ordinaria was, and is, meant to be celebrated in Latin. Using the vernacular is only the exception to the rule.

2.) ‘Old’ does not necessarily mean ‘better’. Just because Jesus and the Twelve or the Early Christians did this or that does not necessarily mean that we should start copying it verbatim. A lot of time has passed since then; we should be considerate of the evolution that the Church (and the Liturgy) had undertook then,

3.) Think about why the “Pax” was abandoned from common use.

 

[palmas85]

palmas85;4214724:

                                                                                           Hello again, friend. Felt ignored you not opining my nits.

**
Have year plus education in Pre and Post 1962 Tridentine Mass. Not including years experience in both.

                                                                                           **Where is the Sign of Peace in the Tridentine Mass? I usher it weeekly now, and remember the  Pre-1962  Tridentine  Mass.

---

What is my Agenda? My Reason for all my posts are to Inform, correct errors, and help others. Do you feel am radical Novus Ordoer liberal, or socialist?

Nationally recognizede Several times in correcting top name News sources.

Am more than glad to publically apologize for any Fundamental Error posting of mine, not including typos. Don’t know how to type. (Don’t tell anyone.)
Tony

Way to go champ!!! Priceless, utterly priceless

 

[maurin]

maurin;4214790:

I really believe it did much more than to contribute to the Church’s loss of authority. We have lost the three hours Jesus hung from the Cross.

At the Mass of the Ages we are at the foot of the Cross on Calvary, shoulder to shoulder with the Priest, Mary, John…

At this new Mass we are sitting around a table…sharing our stories.

It’s quite sad, really.

                                                                                                                                                                                 How have we lost the 3 hours Our Lord Hung on the  Closs?   Isn't the Mass the Last Supper Feast?

How was the Tridentine Mass of 500 years the Mass of the Ages? What about the previous 1500 years?
How are we shoulder to shoulder with the Priest in Tridentine? We only look at his back, non-participatingly, trying to find in English what he is praying so beautifully in Latin.

How are we sitting around the table sharing stories at the Novus Ordo? As Usher at all Masses, I would motion silence to anyone chatting, and If they continue, I would ask them to Leave.
Vivat Jesus.
Tony

I don’t mean this unkindly, Tony, but maybe after a couple of more years’ education in both Forms you’ll understand them a little better.

All you have shown in most of these posts is your lack of understanding, especially of the Mass of the Ages.

I would recommend to you a book by Archbishop Fulton Sheen (he is, I believe, a darling of us all!?), called “Calvary and the Mass.” Amazon sells it. You may want to give it a read. It’s only around 60 or so pages. It WILL be SO worth your time!

 

[japhy]

Sailka: First, please learn how to use this forum’s posting mechanism. Typos I can understand, but the hanging

and [/LIST things are needlessly irritating.

How was the Tridentine Mass of 500 years the Mass of the Ages? What about the previous 1500 years?

You have apparently not studied enough history. Please read The Organic Development of the Liturgy by Dom Alcuin Reid; or go to Liturgica.com and read about the history of liturgical development there.

The “Tridentine” Mass was nearly identical to the Roman Mass as celebrated 50 years before, and shockingly similar to the Roman Mass as celebrated for previous centuries. The Roman Canon was in existence by the late 4th century; and while the “Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus” includes a Eucharistic Prayer, the author says it serves as a model, and is for use at the Mass in which a bishop is installed… but nowadays we hear Eucharistic Prayer II (which is based on the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus) almost all the time. Did you know that some of the members of the Consilium wished that this prayer would be used without the Sanctus? That is rank archeologism and antiquarianism.

Sure, the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus might be older than the Roman Canon, but it fell out of use. Perhaps it fell out of use because something better came along.
Sailka;4214894:

How are we shoulder to shoulder with the Priest in Tridentine? We only look at his back, non-participatingly, trying to find in English what he is praying so beautifully in Latin.

That is typical ignorant cliche. The person in the pew in front of me… I see only his back… so maybe he should turn and face me? At least during the liturgy of the Eucharist, it was the earliest tradition that everyone would face east together (priest included!). We’re not looking at his back, because we’re not looking at his back, we’re looking at what is in front of him, what is coming from the East. We are gazing upon the Eucharist when he lifts it up for us to adore and worship.

And “non-participatingly”? There is participation (and not just of the interior and sacramental kinds) in the usus antiquior; it became more and more common to have “dialogue” Masses, and the people were encouraged to take part in the Gregorian chants and responses of the ordinary of the Mass.

Vatican II called for a continued education of the people, by their pastors, in Gregorian chant and Latin. Read the Vatican II constitution on the liturgy.

 

[Sailka]

You mean, in spite of your years of training and experience that you don’t know??? How is this possible with your supposed qualifications? I think I know the answer, however…

And yet your scholarship is laughable and you do nothing but muddy the waters. You have no idea what you’re talking about, and most of your claims are just downright false. I have already pointed out your errors in my previous posts, as have other posters. “Inform” and “correct errors” and “help others”??? At this rate, maybe you should attemp “keeping mouth shut” and “maybe quit lying about so-called qualifications”

No, but rather that you were deceived by somebody, or are trying to deceive us.

Then maybe you should go back and re-read poeple’s responses to your ludicrous claims. Obviously you don’t know the origins of the traditional Mass, you are oblivious of the fact that it is more than five hundred years old, and are clueless that 99% of the Novus Ordo isn’t more than about 40 years old, among other things.

                                                                                          Good Morning.  Why do you create false all negative charges?  Only a couple of "Traditionalists"  here are all false attackers.  :)    Catholics I know are In Love ith our Lord, and His  Church. You suggest you are in love with Your opinions only, which are baseless  in Fact.

                                                                                           Don't know that the Mass is 2,000 years old, not   500  or 1500  or 50?

                                                                                           Why do  you think you know better than the Church, Magesterium,   Bishop that  the Novus Ordo   is not   Genuine Traditional Mass?   

                                                                                           Why do you only call the Tridentine Mass authoriozed 500 years ago as 'traditional'?    Who not those of St Gregory 1500 years ago? or the Last Supper feast as I call it in the Second Century?   
                                                                                           Here's a Positive, realistic attitude pill am loaning you today.  I have not  taken any medication lifetime.  Live  the Lord's way, not mine.

(Clue, clue)
Tony

 

[japhy]

Don’t know that the Mass is 2,000 years old, not 500 or 1500 or 50?

Don’t you know that what you continually call the “Tridentine” Mass and assert is only 500 years old is much older?

Why do you think you know better than the Church, Magesterium, Bishop that the Novus Ordo is not Genuine Traditional Mass?

I agree with what Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger and Msgr. Klaus Gamber said. You can read some comments of Ratzinger here (with my commentary here). The late Msgr. Gamber has a book titled The Reform of the Roman Liturgy that has a foreword written by Ratzinger (an excerpt of which is here).

Why do you only call the Tridentine Mass authoriozed 500 years ago as ‘traditional’? Who not those of St Gregory 1500 years ago? or the Last Supper feast as I call it in the Second Century?

I’ll say it one last time. The “Tridentine” liturgy is of the same “make and model”, as it were, as the Gregorian liturgy. The liturgy that was produced by the Consilium between 1963 and 1969 is not.

For what reason do you call it a “Last Supper feast”? What do you mean to imply by use of the word “feast”? St. Paul seems to have wanted the church in Corinth to separate their agape from their Eucharist.

You write awfully cryptically sometimes.

 

[pnewton]

Don’t you know that what you continually call the “Tridentine” Mass and assert is only 500 years old is much older?.

The original poster seems to have a double standard. He wants to date the TLM from the council or Trent when the Mass (1000 years old) was standardized. Yet then the poster wants to date the “Novus Ordo” back to the first century for the sake of a few added elements. What gives?

Then a big point is made of re-defining “traditional” while use the phrase “novus ordo.” I am thorouhly confused.

 

[mercygate]

I am surprised that this thread has lasted this long. In all honesty, why do you think it was posted in the first place?

I mean lets think about it. What possible good could ever come from this thread?. On the face of it it is pretty obvious what is going on and what the poster intended.

At least it is to me, but then again I’ve been on this board for a long time, back before the crash, and I’ve seen several threads along these exact same lines, using the exact same examples and all aiming in the exact same direction.

Too much time gets wasted on these exercises.

Ah yes! The Great Crash of ought-six!

Now back to topic!

 

[Sailka]

The original poster seems to have a double standard. He wants to date the TLM from the council or Trent when the Mass (1000 years old) was standardized. Yet then the poster wants to date the “Novus Ordo” back to the first century for the sake of a few added elements. What gives?

Then a big point is made of re-defining “traditional” while use the phrase “novus ordo.” I am thorouhly confused.

Good morning again. Popular, almost universal usage of “traditional” has been to the Tridentine Mass. It concerns me that even the Council of Bishops always calls Tridentine ‘traditional’, apparently because it was the approved form of Mass for 500 years. One Massive problem with it is that it needed to be updated vernacularly to local understood language, not Latin only. And not everyone can read.

                                                                                            I never 'dated the Novus Ordo to the first century', and it was not  'just a couple elements' reintroduced From the first two  centuries.   Preciselly the Opposite.   I listened on Radio 1960's as the Earliest Mass was researched  by the Vatican.   The Kiss of  Peace was said to be brought back as the Handshake by western culture. Congregation prayerful participation With the Priest was a major improvement, and was obviously done somehat in earliest masses.  I have disliked the Host in Hand option intenselly, but  realize that must have been the way in first centuries,  And obey my Church's decisions, not mine.   I have always received on tongue, and not let it touch my teeth, as was taught  in grade school  by Sister Dionysius, RIP.   And significant prayers by thePriest have  literally been brought  back from the first 2 centuries.     And I listened on Radio  as   "The Prayer" by the Faithful  was broughgt back.  Was thought to  be the Lord's Prayer, now beautifully said openly by all, also charismatically. Beautiful to Families, Friends  hold hands saying it.  Were Many things brought back from   Priest only backside in Tridentine,  from earliest centuries, abandoned by   the Tridentine.

Indeed, it is not widelly known that the Pre-1962 reforms Tridentine mass was Silence always, no response until the Latin ‘go, the Mass is ended’,

The essentials of the Mass have never changed, The details have, in 2000 Years. Several ‘Details’ have always been in the Mass from earliest days, like the Greek Kyrie, Christe Eleison, in honor of our Eastern brothers.

Yes, I have used “traditional” generically. What is Traditional Depends on which of 20 centuries one speaks.

                                                                                           Vivat Jesus.  Love our Ideal Faith, and Our Lord's 7 Sacraments,  and the Incredible  Real  Presence Eucharist.  Jesus, Mary, everything  I  have is yours.
     :signofcross:   Tony
                                                                                           PS:  Am Full traditional, not (ist).  I never turn my back on my Lord, leaving Eucharistic Adoration back out, always  Facing Him.     Great Practise, which 'speaks  loudly'  to others

 

[japhy]

One Massive problem with it is that it needed to be updated vernacularly to local understood language, not Latin only. And not everyone can read.

Too bad the translations we have in the US are atrocious. How many people actually do understand what’s going on and being said at the Mass?

Vatican II spoke of a Mass celebrated in Latin, with permission to use the vernacular in certain parts. You don’t need to be able to read to memorize (and understand) responses.

The Kiss of Peace was said to be brought back as the Handshake by western culture.

Why did we have to update the Kiss of Peace? Why can’t it be done in a more collected manner? Instead we have people walking all over the church to say hello to people, sometimes delaying the “Lamb of God” or (worse) continuing it during the “Lamb of God”.

And significant prayers by thePriest have literally been brought back from the first 2 centuries.

WHICH PRAYERS? Please tell us. What about the significant prayers of the priest that had been used since the 6th century that were REMOVED?

Were Many things brought back from Priest only backside in Tridentine, from earliest centuries, abandoned by the Tridentine.

I can’t even UNDERSTAND what you are writing. Please, type more slowly, check your spelling and grammar. Collect your thoughts better.

Yes, I have used “traditional” generically. What is Traditional Depends on which of 20 centuries one speaks.

What if we are referring to ALL the centuries? Tradition is what is handed on to us.

 

[pnewton]

I never ‘dated the Novus Ordo to the first century’

Then what is the point of this whole thread? If you know the current form of the Mass is only forty years old, why did you pose the original question.

 

[palmas85]

Then what is the point of this whole thread? If you know the current form of the Mass is only forty years old, why did you pose the original question.

You know the point of the thread. Its the same as it always is. These posters put forth the opinion that the Pauline Rite is closer to the original liturgies of the Church than is the Traditional Mass. They’ve trotted this horse out every so often since the early 70’s and it never works cause it just isn’t true.

 

[RyanML]

You know the point of the thread. Its the same as it always is. These posters put forth the opinion that the Pauline Rite is closer to the original liturgies of the Church than is the Traditional Mass. They’ve trotted this horse out every so often since the early 70’s and it never works cause it just isn’t true.

The truth is, many of those involved in the liturgical innovations during and after the Council did so for ecumenical reasons. According to Fr. Annibale Bugnini (later Archbishop), the New Rite was

“to strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants.” (L’Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965.)

This is in opposition to the Council’s understanding of true ecumenism:

This Sacred Council exhorts the faithful to refrain from superficiality and imprudent zeal, which can hinder real progress toward unity. Their ecumenical action must be fully and sincerely Catholic, that is to say, faithful to the truth which we have received from the apostles and Fathers of the Church, in harmony with the faith which the Catholic Church has always professed, and at the same time directed toward that fullness to which Our Lord wills His Body to grow in the course of time. Unitatis Redintegratio, 24

 

[japhy]

The truth is, many of those involved in the liturgical innovations during and after the Council did so for ecumenical reasons. According to Fr. Annibale Bugnini (later Archbishop), the New Rite was “to strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants.” (L’Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965.)

I’d use the original (Italian) text, and make the context known:
Gli studiosi penseranno a mettere in luce le fonti bibliche e liturgiche da cui derivano o alle quali sdi ispirano i nuovi testi, elaborati col cesello dai Gruppi di studio del “Consilium”. E diciamo pure che non di rado il lavoro è proceduto “cum timore et tremore” nel dover sacrificare espressioni e concetti tanto cari, e ormai per la lunga consuetudine familiari. Come non rimpiangere per esempio quel “ad sanctam matrem Ecclesiam catholicam atque apostolicam revocare dignetur” della settima orazione?

E tuttavia l’amore delle anime e il desiderio di agevolare in ogni modo il cammino dell’unione ai fratelli separati, rimovendo pietra che possa costituire pur lontamente un inciampo o motivo di disagio, hanno indotto la Chiesa anche a quei penosi sacrifici.
The last part is translated better as: “Love for souls and the desire to facilitate in every way the road to union with our separated brothers, by removing anything that could possibly constitute an impediment or make them feel ill at ease, has induced the Church to make even these painful sacrifices.” The change being referred to was the change in language of the Good Friday prayers, which (as the 1962 liturgy attests to) uses the terms “heretics” and “schismatics”.

 

[Sailka]

Then what is the point of this whole thread? If you know the current form of the Mass is only forty years old, why did you pose the original question.

To discover the different forms/eras/histories of the Mass, and to dispel the notion that the Tridentine Mass is THE Traditional, correct form of the Mass. It is neither, historically.

Vivat Jesus
Tony