Tridentine Solemn High Mass

[Iohannes]

The New Mass is called the Novus Ordo because it is the New Mass and has not yet stablized. I am not sure if it will stabilize.

I do not hear anyone whining about the misnomer “Tridentine”.

 

[Iohannes]

WBB:

I guess it all boils down to why you go to Mass in the first place. I have never attended a Tridentine Mass. I don’t attend Mass to “feel” anything. I also don’t attend Mass for the external environment that is presented or the aesthetics of the church building. I attend Mass for one reason and one reason only…because God is good! Regardless of the homily, the music, the lack of music, the incense or lack thereof, the altar, the risen Christ on the cross, the tabernacle in a side place, the screaming children, the creaking pews, the Brady Modern church building with green carpet, I attend Mass because God is good and deserving of all my love. For this reason, I am never disappointed when I attend Mass because it is not about pleasing me but about me being pleasing to God.

“Lex Orandi, Lex Crendendi”

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

The New Mass is called the Novus Ordo because it is the New Mass and has not yet stablized.

Pope Paul VI said, rather explicitly, that the 1970 Missal is not a “New Mass”:

. . .

The second question is: What exactly are the changes?

You will see for yourselves that they consist of many new directions for celebrating the rites. Especially at the beginning, these will call for a certain amount of attention and care. Personal devotion and community sense will make it easy and pleasant to observe these new rules. But keep this clearly in mind: Nothing has been changed of the substance of our traditional Mass. Perhaps some may allow themselves to be carried away by the impression made by some particular ceremony or additional rubric, and thus think that they conceal some alteration or diminution of truths which were acquired by the Catholic faith for ever, and are sanctioned by it. They might come to believe that the equation between the law of prayer, *lex orandi * and the law of faith, lex credendi, is compromised as a result.

It is not so. Absolutely not. Above all, because the rite and the relative rubric are not in themselves a dogmatic definition. Their theological qualification may vary in different degrees according to the liturgical context to which they refer. They are gestures and terms relating to a religious action–experienced and living–of an indescribable mystery of divine presence, not always expressed in a universal way. Only theological criticism can analyze this action and express it in logically satisfying doctrinal formulas. The Mass of the new rite is and remains the same Mass we have always had. If anything, its sameness has been brought out more clearly in some respects.

. . .

In the new rite you will find the relationship between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist, strictly so called, brought out more clearly, as if the latter were the practical response to the former. You will find how much the assembly of the faithful is called upon to participate in the celebration of the Eucharistic sacrifice, and how in the Mass they are and fully feel themselves “the Church.” You will also see other marvelous features of our Mass. But do not think that these things are aimed at altering its genuine and traditional essence.

. . .

**So do not let us talk about “the new Mass.” ** Let us rather speak of the “new epoch” in the Church’s life.

Yes, there is a twinge of “hopeless optimism” in this Address by the Holy Father. But I think the gist of it is true: the Missa Normativa is not, in and of itself, essentially different from the Missa Tridentina.

I would agree that it is flawed only insofar as 1) there is way too much room for variation; 2) vernacular translations stink; 3) related to [1], Latin and Gregorian chant are only “highly reccomended options.”

When celebrated in a traditional manner, it’s still the same Mass.

And yes, the word “Tridentine Mass” is a misnomer; the difference is Novus Ordo has begun to acquire some negative connotations, so more and more people seem to be using the phrase Missa Normativa, as the Cantians do in their Rule.

 

[WBB]

“Lex Orandi, Lex Crendendi”

I am not sure of the point you are trying to make with lex orandi, lex crendendi.

 

[legeorge]

I love going to the nearby Traditional Latin Mass. They do the Asperges at evey Sunday High Mass, but not at low Masses. I have been going there more and more often. I find it much more Spiritually fulfilling than our usual parish’s Mass. I do feel like I am a part of something larger, or heavenly, when I go there. I can imagine the angels around us, celebrating with us. It is a nice change from the liturgical abuses we have all become so accustomed to. I also find that the people there are on the same page with regard to following the teachings of the Church. I actually do not have the largest family at the Latin parish like we do at our current one. We are even considering joining this Church.

WBB, I don’t think it is wrong to attend Mass where you feel more engaged, uplifted, etc. We all go to Mass because we love God, and want to be closer to Him. We go to celebrate the Eucharist, and thank God for all his many many blessings. That doesn’t mean that you have to put up with wild liturgical abuses or other things that distract you from the Real Presence and the purpose of the Mass. If I am in an environment where everyone around me is lost in prayer and participation in the Sacraments, I admit, I leave Church feeling uplifted and spiritually fed. Sometimes it is hard to properly celebrate the Mass when you are distracted by EMsHC crowding the altar, or a Priest who speaks in lukewarm circles. I am guessing that you are way, way more disciplined than I am. I know that it should not matter. I know that the Eucharist is the main purpose of the Mass, and that as long as I receive a valid communion, that should suffice. But am I so wrong to want a little more? To feel like I am a part of the Body of Christ? To yearn for an environment at Mass that is truly respectful of what is happening there? I surely hope not.

 

[Iohannes]

WBB:

I am not sure of the point you are trying to make with lex orandi, lex crendendi.

Outwards appearances do matter when celebrating Mass.

 

[James0235]

Pope Paul VI said, rather explicitly, that the 1970 Missal is not a “New Mass”:

True. He did say that. But if Pope Paul VI gave me a duck and told me that it was not a duck I would still call it a duck. Because if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck then chances are that it is probably a duck.

James

 

[Inquisitor]

4.) Latin can be used within the Novus Ordo

1.) It’s never used.

2.) It’s never used.

3.) It’s never used.

4.) It’s never used.

I suppose I could go on. The Traditional Latin Mass is the future.

You’re simply mistaken. While the four may not be used in your parish, they are used elsewhere during the celebration of the Novus Ordo Mass.

 

[Inquisitor]

Iohannes:

The New Mass is called the Novus Ordo because it is the New Mass and has not yet stablized. I am not sure if it will stabilize.

I do not hear anyone whining about the misnomer “Tridentine”.

You’re simply mistaken.

 

[Iohannes]

Inquisitor:

You’re simply mistaken.

How so?

The liturgical scene is chaotic.

in the past 40 years we started having Communion-in-hand, altar girls, ripping out the high altars, renovations, liturgical dancers, lifeteen, gathering around the altar, charismatic masses.

 

[Benedictus]

When the 1970 Missal came out, it had the words Novus Ordo Missae printed on one of the first pages. It was a new Order of Mass, hence the name.

And, yes, Tridentine is a bit of misnomer.

 

[katolik]

WBB:

I guess it all boils down to why you go to Mass in the first place. I have never attended a Tridentine Mass. I don’t attend Mass to “feel” anything. I also don’t attend Mass for the external environment that is presented or the aesthetics of the church building. I attend Mass for one reason and one reason only…because God is good! Regardless of the homily, the music, the lack of music, the incense or lack thereof, the altar, the risen Christ on the cross, the tabernacle in a side place, the screaming children, the creaking pews, the Brady Modern church building with green carpet, I attend Mass because God is good and deserving of all my love. For this reason, I am never disappointed when I attend Mass because it is not about pleasing me but about me being pleasing to God.

The Traditional Latin Masses in the USA usually have many many children. I think the average number of children per family is about 4 childrenwith some who have 7,8,9 children there!!! and this is normal.

 

[katolik]

Pope Paul VI said, rather explicitly, that the 1970 Missal is not a “New Mass”:

Yes, there is a twinge of “hopeless optimism” in this Address by the Holy Father. But I think the gist of it is true: the Missa Normativa is not, in and of itself, essentially different from the Missa Tridentina.

I would agree that it is flawed only insofar as 1) there is way too much room for variation; 2) vernacular translations stink; 3) related to [1], Latin and Gregorian chant are only “highly reccomended options.”

When celebrated in a traditional manner, it’s still the same Mass.

And yes, the word “Tridentine Mass” is a misnomer; the difference is Novus Ordo has begun to acquire some negative connotations, so more and more people seem to be using the phrase Missa Normativa, as the Cantians do in their Rule.

Actually, the Missa Normativa depends on the diocese. A bishop basically declares the Missa Normativa in his diocese. Bishop Castro de Meyer had the Traditional Tridentine Latin Mass as the Normative Mass of his diocese up until 1981!

 

[katherine2]

katolik:

The Traditional Latin Masses in the USA usually have many many children. I think the average number of children per family is about 4 children[with some who have 7,8,9 children there!!! and this is normal.

Masses don’t have children.

Anyway, the Tridentine Mass near me has a disproportionately high number of unmarried men.
[/quote]

 

[katolik]

katherine2:

Masses don’t have children.

Anyway, the Tridentine Mass near me has a disproportionately high number of unmarried men.

Huh?
You contradict yourself and then tell me that there are a lot of priests at the TTLM near you. Isn’t a large number of priests a good thing?

 

[Iohannes]

IN my area, they are either elderly folks or young couples with children ready to take over churches!!

 

[amasimp]

Typically, the Asperges is only sung before the principle Sunday Mass. In a parish that only says the TLM, this is usually the High Mass. In Indult Parishes, the Latin Mass said is typically not the principle Sunday Mass for that parish so it is not required for the Asperges to be included.

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

amasimp:

Typically, the Asperges is only sung before the principle Sunday Mass. In a parish that only says the TLM, this is usually the High Mass. In Indult Parishes, the Latin Mass said is typically not the principle Sunday Mass for that parish so it is not required for the Asperges to be included.

Yes that’s how it is at our parish. We have two Sunday masses, one low and one high, and the asperges is done at the high Mass.

 

[WBB]

katolik:

The Traditional Latin Masses in the USA usually have many many children. I think the average number of children per family is about 4 children[with some who have 7,8,9 children there!!! and this is normal.

Hmm. Not sure of how this relates to what I posted.
[/quote]

 

[WBB]

Iohannes:

Outwards appearances do matter when celebrating Mass.

I never said they didn’t. All I meant was that the focus of our worship should be Jesus. For example, there are those who would say that the Tridentine Mass is in some way superior by virtue of the fact that it is in Latin; that Latin is more mysterious sounding and therefore must be more “holy” as though God prefers Latin to English or French or Spanish.

“But the hour is coming–indeed is already here–when true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth.” John 4:23 and “But you delight in sincerity of heart and in secret you teach me wisdom.” Psalm 51:6

This is what is pleasing to the Lord according to His Word…sincerity of heart not outward show. If the outward show is focused on Christ, then it will be sincere. But we cannot let little things distract us from the true purpose of our worship…the priest facing the people, the cantor (who is trying his or her best to praise the Lord with a screechy voice), a boring homily, etc. Regardless of those things, Jesus is still present when 2 or 3 are gathered in his name.