Tridentine Solemn High Mass

[WBB]

legeorge:

WBB, I don’t think it is wrong to attend Mass where you feel more engaged, uplifted, etc. We all go to Mass because we love God, and want to be closer to Him. We go to celebrate the Eucharist, and thank God for all his many many blessings. That doesn’t mean that you have to put up with wild liturgical abuses or other things that distract you from the Real Presence and the purpose of the Mass. If I am in an environment where everyone around me is lost in prayer and participation in the Sacraments, I admit, I leave Church feeling uplifted and spiritually fed. Sometimes it is hard to properly celebrate the Mass when you are distracted by EMsHC crowding the altar, or a Priest who speaks in lukewarm circles. I am guessing that you are way, way more disciplined than I am. I know that it should not matter. I know that the Eucharist is the main purpose of the Mass, and that as long as I receive a valid communion, that should suffice. But am I so wrong to want a little more? To feel like I am a part of the Body of Christ? To yearn for an environment at Mass that is truly respectful of what is happening there? I surely hope not.

It is not wrong to feel uplifted and spiritually fed. My question is what if you don’t? Is God any less present in that sacrifice of the Mass? You don’t have to have a Mass in Latin for it to be truly respectful of what is happening there. You do need proper catechesis. Now, having said that, I don’t have a problem with the Latin Mass, but I prefer when the Mass is in English. Am I wrong? I also don’t like abuses in the liturgy, but again, this is due largely to poor catechesis. Teach people the proper way to participate in Mass, and it will be respectful.

 

[mgy100]

The Tridentine Mass based upon 1500 years Church history, basically wiping out geographical masses and aligning them with the ancient Roman rite.
The New Mass, only what, 35 years old, missing what, 70% of the prayers of what is essentially the ancient Mass, the one said throughout our Roman Catholic history (brought together as one ritual during the Council of Trent).
Oh yeah, I am not a weirdo, Tridentine mass person like others have called those who celebrate this mass in this post. I don’t have 9 kids. I am Roman Catholic. The Pope is my hero, I have a Political Science degree, and was taught in a major public university that Pope John Paul II is one of history’s greatest politicians (and totally believe it). I just prefer the Tridentine Mass, and you know what, according to the Pope, I am allowed to do so.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Bishop Castro de Meyer had the Traditional Tridentine Latin Mass as the Normative Mass of his diocese up until 1981!

The late Bishop Meyer was a disobedient schismatic, on a par with Cardinals Mahoney and Kaspar. It was he who led Campos into schism (it’s back in union with Rome now). He kept the former Missal unlawfully.

 

[porthos11]

mgy100:

I just prefer the Tridentine Mass, and you know what, according to the Pope, I am allowed to do so.

And that is definitely your privilege.

What I can’t stand are those who would go so far as to say that the “Novus Ordo” “stinks” or is “bastardized” or “Protestantized”. The 2000 Missal is the Normative Missal, and it is indeed beautiful and reverent, and is the OFFICIAL Eucharistic Liturgy of the Roman Rite. So to call the current rite names is to spit in God’s face and the face of the Church. And if it’s good enough for the Church, it’s good enough for me. I am a Catholic. What the Church says I do, I do.

I am not privileged to hear a Tridentine Mass; there are none here. So the Normative Mass is the ONLY one I can love. There are many others like me. We shouldn’t be insulted by those who are more privileged, and neither should the liturgy we love.

 

[Iohannes]

DominvsVobiscvm:

The late Bishop Meyer was a disobedient schismatic, on a par with Cardinals Mahoney and Kaspar. It was he who led Campos into schism (it’s back in union with Rome now). He kept the former Missal unlawfully.

Campos was never in schism, they were irregular at one time, but never in schism.

How is this possible:
-Did not have to convalidate the Marriages.
-no penalties for “simony” for collecting money during their “illicit” Masses.
-confession were valid.

DV, I do not think you did not understand what went on in Brazil during that time, and why they had to do and what they had to do in order to preserve the Traditional Mass until finally, Rome offered something better than Ecclesia Dei.

 

[Iohannes]

katolik:

Actually, the Missa Normativa depends on the diocese. A bishop basically declares the Missa Normativa in his diocese. Bishop Castro de Meyer had the Traditional Tridentine Latin Mass as the Normative Mass of his diocese up until 1981!

And afterwards, the new Bishop stop having the Traditional Mass, in doing so, alienated tens of thousands of faithful.

They were ultimately right to resist in the end, Rome capitulated and gave them an Apostolic Administration, with the right of the Faithful and priest to have the Traditional Mass, soo much better than the indult option.

Another interesting fact is that there are more people who attend the Traditional Mass in Brazil than in the United States

 

[bear06]

Iohannes:

Campos was never in schism, they were irregular at one time, but never in schism.

How is this possible:
-Did not have to convalidate the Marriages.
-no penalties for “simony” for collecting money during their “illicit” Masses.
-confession were valid.

DV, I do not think you did not understand what went on in Brazil during that time, and why they had to do and what they had to do in order to preserve the Traditional Mass until finally, Rome offered something better than Ecclesia Dei.

I’ve gone over this before. No, their marriages and confessions weren’t valid. When they were regularized the Pope had to sanate the marriages and confessions which means to remove the invalidity of. The Church has a history of doing this for mass returns that pre-dates VII. They also had to accept the mass of VII (not say).

 

[Iohannes]

bear06:

I’ve gone over this before. No, their marriages and confessions weren’t valid. When they were regularized the Pope had to sanate the marriages and confessions which means to remove the invalidity of. The Church has a history of doing this for mass returns that pre-dates VII. They also had to accept the mass of VII (not say).

THat does not make sense at all.

You are basically reducing the sacraments as if they are magic.

Your argument on the marriage front nullifies the very concept of defect of form. If a Catholic is married without permission outside of the Church the Pope can’t simply wave some sort of magic wand and retroactively validate the marriage.

The very idea is preposterous, and it strikes at the foundation of our Holy Faith. Can a Pope retroactively validate an invalid Mass? A Mass at which he wasn’t even present? It’s bad enough that we now tacitly accept the bizarre notion that the Pope can transcend space at his mega-Masses and zap the Eucharist from a quarter of a mile away, but the suggestion that he can transcend TIME is offensive to the dignity of the Papacy. It is a cartooning of the Catholic Church.

You saying the Pope governs by fiat. Not only fiat but WHIM! You are not addressing the simony issue either, when a person donates a stipend for a Mass to be said for an intention, if the Mass is either invalid or illicit the acceptance of the stipend constitutes simony… which USED to be a serious offense.

It reminds me of those monks at Mt. Athos were one day they declare each other’s orders invalid and the next day its mystically valid again.

 

[OrthoCath]

If there is any Church in the World that uses Gregorian Chant with the Novus Ordo would you please post a link to its name. Otherwise I don’t believe you.

 

[Iohannes]

OrthoCath:

If there is any Church in the World that uses Gregorian Chant with the Novus Ordo would you please post a link to its name. Otherwise I don’t believe you.

There is an Abbey that does a magnficent Latin Novus Ordo. But it is soo rare to see such a thing in the New Mass.
They do not allow altar servettes or any liturgical wierdness.

Their Masses are extremely close to the Juxta typica of the Novus Ordo, with the exception of the Ad Orientem option.

abbeynews.net/

Here is their music page:
abbeynews.net/music/index.htm

Also one more thing, THEY **KNEEL ** FOR HOLY COMMUNION at their Novus Ordo Mass!!!

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ370.HTM

This is a link to a page of Dave Armstrong’s website that describes what he calls “My Traditional Novus Ordo Parish”. They use Latin and vernacular, still have altar rails , etc…

 

[mtr01]

OrthoCath:

If there is any Church in the World that uses Gregorian Chant with the Novus Ordo would you please post a link to its name. Otherwise I don’t believe you.

You can actually see it for yourself in the masses broadcast on EWTN.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

OrthoCath:

If there is any Church in the World that uses Gregorian Chant with the Novus Ordo would you please post a link to its name. Otherwise I don’t believe you.

I attended a evening Mass at Westminster Cathedral in London in 1992 that was NO with Gregorian Chant. Google the cathedral.

 

[katherine2]

St. Matthew’s Cathedral in Washington, DC (weekly) and the Cathedral of SS. Peter & Paul in Philadelphia (monthly)

 

[katolik]

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ370.HTM

This is a link to a page of Dave Armstrong’s website that describes what he calls “My Traditional Novus Ordo Parish”. They use Latin and vernacular, still have altar rails , etc…

I know this parish… It’s in the same cluster as the Detroit TLM.

 

[katolik]

DominvsVobiscvm:

The late Bishop Meyer was a disobedient schismatic, on a par with Cardinals Mahoney and Kaspar. It was he who led Campos into schism (it’s back in union with Rome now). He kept the former Missal unlawfully.

When will Cardinals Kasper and Mahoney get their decrees of excommunication?

 

[Voice_Of_Reason]

Iohannes:

How so?

The liturgical scene is chaotic.

in the past 40 years we started having Communion-in-hand, altar girls, ripping out the high altars, renovations, liturgical dancers, lifeteen, gathering around the altar, charismatic masses.

The sad thing is, the above is all too common. But if you want a TLM, you have to fight day and night pray that if one is granted it isn’t in the middle of nowehere and at 6:00 AM like where the TLM nearest me, I’m in the Orlando area, and the nearest TLM Indult is in St. Petersburg. Then again, there’s one in Jacksonville in a pretty nice old church with a high altar.

 

[mgy100]

So true, the nearest tlm is 110 miles away from me. I would love to see one done in my diocese. It would be the greatest. I know the support would be there. I could muster the troops to keep it alive if a parish was allowed to say tlm here. It wouldn’t be a problem at all. I am a leader by nature, sorry to sound stuck up, but I know so many people that want this. I will and can organize it, and bring many people to the table that would do this. All I need is a priest and permission and a church that hasn’t turned in it’s essential altar, rails, etc. for scrap. The biggest thing is a priest that is dedicated to the Tridentine mass. He is the biggest and most important thing. I’d literally kiss his feet. The dedication to learning the Tridentine mass is not totally on the people, it is to the Priest who takes time out of his life to commit himself to learning/re-learning the Latin and the rubrics. After the priest, it is the choir that learns/re-learns the gregorian chant (in comparison to the sacrifice Father has to make this is minor). Then us, the people have to be committed to attending and learning the mass week after week. It is a communual experience, just like anything else, but the odds are not in our favour. Also, besides finding a Priest who will take on the responsibility of the Tridentine mass, we have to convince the Bishop to grant him the Indult. I don’t know what is harder, getting the Priest that will do it or getting the Bishop to grant us an Indult.

One more thing, what is to say the next Pope totally bans the Tridetine mass. It could happen. Totally could happen.
I pray for and thank God that we are lucky that the Bishops, Priests, and laity that dedicate their time and life to continuing the Tridentine mass exist. As much as people say the Tridentine Mass totally seperates the laity from the ceremony, today it sure does take a community to make the Tridentine mass happen.
Quote that.

 

[bear06]

Iohannes:

THat does not make sense at all.

You are basically reducing the sacraments as if they are magic.

Your argument on the marriage front nullifies the very concept of defect of form. If a Catholic is married without permission outside of the Church the Pope can’t simply wave some sort of magic wand and retroactively validate the marriage.

The very idea is preposterous, and it strikes at the foundation of our Holy Faith. Can a Pope retroactively validate an invalid Mass? A Mass at which he wasn’t even present? It’s bad enough that we now tacitly accept the bizarre notion that the Pope can transcend space at his mega-Masses and zap the Eucharist from a quarter of a mile away, but the suggestion that he can transcend TIME is offensive to the dignity of the Papacy. It is a cartooning of the Catholic Church.

You saying the Pope governs by fiat. Not only fiat but WHIM! You are not addressing the simony issue either, when a person donates a stipend for a Mass to be said for an intention, if the Mass is either invalid or illicit the acceptance of the stipend constitutes simony… which USED to be a serious offense.

It reminds me of those monks at Mt. Athos were one day they declare each other’s orders invalid and the next day its mystically valid again.

Buddy, I’m not reducing anything nor would I ever say the Pope is acting on a whim. What part of this exactly do you not accept? Do you not accept the term sanate? That the Church has a history of doing this? Even the SSPX gives the definition on their “Angelus” site. I don’t know that it is used with masses or simony, didn’t ask, but it is often used with marriage and apparently confessions according to the canon lawyers (by the way, did I mention that they are Traditionalists?) who are experts in the SSPX arena. In fact, one of them used to be in SSPX until he got educated.

You’ve got to realize that a priest must have faculties in a diocese to officiate at wedding and to hear confessions or they are not valid. Go ahead and keep up with this outrageous claim that the SSPX is not in schism but you can’t deny that they do not have faculties.

 

[bear06]

OrthoCath:

If there is any Church in the World that uses Gregorian Chant with the Novus Ordo would you please post a link to its name. Otherwise I don’t believe you.

St. Margaret Mary’s Oakland, CA
St. Mary’s, Walnut Creek, CA (this mass is only once a month)

I’ve heard of people calling others stupid but calling people liars is disgusting.