Trinity and Mathematics?

  • Thread starter Thread starter YHWH_Christ
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Vico said:
God is absolutely simple.
Click to expand...
That is the question being raised by Muslims and Jews and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I guess that they would contend that an absolutely simple God would be One God who is One Person. One God who is three different Persons is not absolutely simple according to them because it introduces a factor of three different Persons whereas you have One God at the same time. Even the Catholic Church split historically on this issue at the time of Arius. It is more simple to have One God who is One Person. Would you agree or not? This One Person is the One God. Once you introduce the factor of three, it seems like you are weakening your argument about simplicity because as factors are introduced (such as being composed of three different Persons) things become less simple.
 
Last edited:
AlNg said:
40.png
Vico:
God is absolutely simple.
Click to expand...
That is the question being raised by Muslims and Jews and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I guess that they would contend that an absolutely simple God would be One God who is One Person. One God who is three different Persons is not absolutely simple according to them because it introduces a factor of three different Persons whereas you have One God at the same time. Even the Catholic Church split historically on this issue at the time of Arius. It is more simple to have One God who is One Person. Would you agree or not? This One Person is the One God. Once you introduce the factor of three, it seems like you are weakening your argument about simplicity because as factors are introduced (such as being composed of three different Persons) things become less simple.
Click to expand...
Relations do not import composition. See Aristotle Metaphysics 4. The Catechism states:
255 The divine persons are relative to one another . Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: “In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance.” 89 Indeed “everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship.” 90 “Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son.” 91

89 Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 528.
90 Council of Florence (1442): DS 1330.
91 Council of Florence (1442): DS 1331.
Click to expand...
Perichoresis is the penetration and indwelling of the three divine persons reciprocally in one another. There is only one divine will in the Holy Trinity.
 
Last edited:
Elias said:
Well I can easily point out what you believe, but I would quickly get banned for being uncharitable to a Muhammadian. So I will leave you with this.

John 1
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth
Click to expand...

  1. [And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ]. Al_ımran(3)​

  2. His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, “Be,” and it is. Ya-Sin(36)​

Word became fresh. The word of God. It was God who ordered the “Be” word.
Click to expand...
 
Elias said:
Matthew 28
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Click to expand...
We(one) profess in name of God(Allah) and Muhammad to be Muslim. And we(one) take full ablutions (baptism is a kind of ablutions) for absolution and get into religion.

God is God and Muhammad is a human as Jesus were.
Click to expand...
 
Elias said:
Matthew 28
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Click to expand...
Holy Spirit was very importand for Jesus and his religion.

  1. And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed. Al-Baqarah(2)​

Click to expand...
 
YHWH_Christ said:
So I’m confused. Is mathematics apart of creation? Then how could God be three in one? Does this imply that mathematics is fundamentally beyond our universe? Are substances really just real manifestations of some mathematical value? God fundamentally is three. This is his substance. Threeness. Yet it is a single substance. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God is three in one is a tautology. So does this mean that God is limited by mathematics?
Click to expand...
I’ve read some private revelation that said God’s number is…333… so you can contemplate that. 🙂
 
Last edited:
YHWH_Christ said:
Is mathematics a part of creation?
Click to expand...
Mathematics is a human construct based on premises. The truth of any mathematical statement depends on the premises that are in effect. Different premises give different results.
  • 1 + 1 = 0 (mod 2)
  • 1 + 1 = 1 (symbolic logic)
  • 1 + 1 = 2 (base 3 or greater)
  • 1 + 1 = 10 (base 2)
  • 1 + 1 = 11 (base 1)
All of those statements are correct given the stated premises.

Here is a story:
When truth was born, it was visited by a magical fairy and blessed with three qualities: the ability to be absolute, the ability to be objective, and the ability to refer to the external world. The condition for this blessing was that truth could only exhibit a maximum of two of those qualities simultaneously. Therefore it could be absolute and objective, but not refer to the external world (mathematical truth). It could be objective and refer to the external world, but not absolute (scientific truth). Finally, it could be absolute and refer to the external world, but not objective (aesthetic truth).
Click to expand...
HTH
 
AlNg said:
40.png
Vico:
There is only one divine will in the Holy Trinity.
Click to expand...
What is meant when Jesus said: “Not my will, but Thine be done”?
Click to expand...
Jesus Christ has two wills, one divine and the other human. The sixth Council of Constantinople decreed that it must be said that there are two wills in Christ.
 
The Trinity isn’t a mathematical equation that 3 = 1. God is one being who is three persons, and three persons who are one being.

Note that there’s a “unit” difference there, and that the words being and person don’t mean the same thing.

We don’t say God is one being who is also three beings.

And we don’t say God is one person who is also three persons.

As for the mystery, yes, the Trinity is a mystery. But I don’t think that statement should be used as a cover all. What is a mystery is what such an existence as one eternal, immutable being who is three persons who fully share the same divine Intellect and Will is like. It’s very foreign to our perspective and we can’t exactly imagine what it’s like to put ourselves in God’s metaphorical shoes, so to speak.

So the Trinity is not illogical or a contradiction and it’s not a mathematical equation. We can comprehend it to a degree. But to imagine the experience of living such a mode of existence? That’s where our imaginations hit their limits.
 
Last edited:
rossum said:
40.png
YHWH_Christ:
Is mathematics a part of creation?
Click to expand...
Mathematics is a human construct based on premises. The truth of any mathematical statement depends on the premises that are in effect. Different premises give different results.
  • 1 + 1 = 0 (mod 2)
  • 1 + 1 = 1 (symbolic logic)
  • 1 + 1 = 2 (base 3 or greater)
  • 1 + 1 = 10 (base 2)
  • 1 + 1 = 11 (base 1)
All of those statements are correct given the stated premises.
Click to expand...
This is just “blowing smoke” over the issue. Yes, we use certain symbols by convention to convey certain premises and operations, and those symbols may overlap. Listing out various statements that use different operations and counting systems only shows the language is a human construct, not the premises they represent.
 
AlNg said:
40.png
Vico:
Jesus Christ has two wills
Click to expand...
Are the two wills in perfect harmony or can they differ?
Click to expand...
In theory they could differ. The human will operated independently insofar as it is not coerced. But it did willingly cooperate with the will of God, even when Jesus Christ felt frightened through his human nature.

What we say about the Trinity though is that it’s not three minds all in synch or in perfect harmony. God is one mind that all three persons fully share as their own. They aren’t just one in the sense that they are in agreement, there is only one divine mind and will.
 
STT said:
40.png
Vico:
The Holy Trinity is one essence with three persons of relation, never apart.
Click to expand...
If person is something then God is not simple.
Click to expand...
God is absolutely simple. The relations are essence.

Catechism
251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.82

252 The Church uses (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
STT said:
40.png
Vico:
God is absolutely simple. The relations are in the essence.
Click to expand...
Is person something? Person is God.
Click to expand...
The persons are all the same “thing” (to use crude terminology). The opposition between them is simply relational. There is no other real distinction between the persons but their relations. It’s God’s simplicity in fact that intellectually allows us to speculatively understand why the procession results in what we call persons or hypostases. If God was not simple that would not be so.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top