Trinity and Mathematics?

[lelinator]

Where did you get the information from? A mind that is essentially limited can only draw from the information it receives or has.

If we consider that one of the hallmarks of both reality, and consciousness, is coherency, i.e order. And we understand that order is in essence information, all that we have to do is figure out where that order/information comes from. The simplest explanation is that order naturally and inevitably arises out of chaos.

The conscious mind doesn’t need to generate nor possess any information, because the mind, along with the coherent reality in which it perceives itself to exist, is the result of that information, not the cause of that information, nor the source of that information.

The mind and its accompanying reality are the effect, not the cause. The cause may simply be the natural and inevitable process of order arising out of chaos.

 

[lelinator]

Assertions are not rebuttals.

And this is where our discussions always come to an end. I asked you to replace one simple word, for the sake of clarity, and rather than even attempt to do that you accused me of resorting to assertions.

Can you understand why I’m usually hesitant to get into a discussion with you?

 

[AlNg]

The Trinitarian G-d is the most essential dogma of Christian belief: without it, Christianity falls.

Jehovah’s Witnesses say they are Christians. Arians claimed to be Christians. Newton is buried in a Christian Church.

 

[JimG]

The Church teaches that God is One. There is only one God. There can only be One divine nature. Nature answers the question “what?” The nature of God is One.

“Person” answers the question “Who?” Person is the expression of nature.

I am one man. And I have one human nature. So, one person, one nature. But I am not two but one.

God is one Divine Nature, one Being, One Essence, fully expressed in Three Persons.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do not “share” the divine nature. Each Person wholly possesses the One divne nature. They are distinct Persons, but not distinct Beings.

For further information, I recommend starting with Frank Sheed’s book”Theology for Beginners.” and “Theology and Sanity.”

 

[Wesrock]

IWantGod:

God creating out of his love explains why a perfect necessary act of existence would create unnecessary things

But rather than using the term “love”, which some people might consider to be anthropomorphic and emotional mumbo jumbo, could you rephrase your argument in such a way as to replace the word love with something a little more concrete? So that we might better discern what it is that your proposing.

I’ve explained this elsewhere. Love can be understood in two ways:

• The sensible, emotive, feeling.
• The intelligible choice to will the good of another.

The former is not something the Divine Nature does. The second is. And we can logically deduce that God’s creative act is the intelligible choice to will the good of another, and furthermore that this does not add to God’s beatitude or own goodness, so is in the ultimate sense selfless.

 

[Wesrock]

@Wesrock, I really am interested in what you personally think of solipsism, and not so much what you think that Aquinas would think of solipsism.

I don’t think it’s a rational approach to philosophy of knowledge.

 

[Rhubarb]

I’m not a mathematician so it’s hard for me to use the right lingo when discussing it. But philosophy of mathematics was one of my favorite subjects at Uni.

Suffice it to say philosophers have been arguing since before Plato about why math works. And there is no great consensus today. They still fight over why it works and how it works.

 

[AlNg]

God is one Divine Nature, one Being, One Essence, fully expressed in Three Persons.

Muslims, Jews, and Jehovah’s Witnesses say that God is one Person. Can you prove that they are logically wrong from reason alone.
Also, I am not sure if the Hindu avatar means the same thing as the Christian Person. Hindus say that Vishnu (God) is one but has several avatars, the most known being Krishna, Rama, Narayana and Vasudeva.
So according to Hinduism, there are more than three Persons or avatars of God. Can you prove that there are only three Persons in God and no more than three?

 

[Vico]

JimG:

God is one Divine Nature, one Being, One Essence, fully expressed in Three Persons.

Muslims, Jews, and Jehovah’s Witnesses say that God is one Person. Can you prove that they are logically wrong from reason alone.
Also, I am not sure if the Hindu avatar means the same thing as the Christian Person. Hindus say that Vishnu (God) is one but has several avatars, the most known being Krishna, Rama, Narayana and Vasudeva.
So according to Hinduism, there are more than three Persons or avatars of God. Can you prove that there are only three Persons in God and no more than three?

There is a logical proof of the Holy Trinity, however, not all accept any particular logical proof. The idea presented by St. Thomas Aquinas is relational, that of God the Father, God the Son – the self-knowledge that proceeds from the Father – and the Holy Spirit – the love proceeding from the relationship between both. Four internal relations of which three have real distinction. Council of Florence: “everything is one where there is no distinction by relative opposition”.

In Christianity there are three categories related to person:

• a divine reality: Father, Son, or Holy Spirit *
• an angel (which when fallen a called a demon)
• a human being

* The Holy Trinity is revealed in what was witnessed and recorded.

The three Divine realities are relations, each identified with the Divine Essence. …it was recognized that the words hypostasis , prosopon , and persona were equally applicable to the three Divine realities.

Geddes, L. (1911). Person. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm

Since in Christianity, a human is a composite of body and soul, with human nature, and The Holy Trinity is divine nature, when Jesus Christ was created the Son assumed a human nature such that Jesus Christ is true God and man with two wills and two natures.

From my study of Asian religions, an avatar, or descent, has various definitions depending upon the particular religion (such as Sikhism) or philosophy (such as Buddhism).

 

[EndTimes]

While, as a Jew, I agree with your Muslim viewpoint, what do you expect Christians to say? Do you expect people on a Catholic forum to be convinced by an Islamic believer (or a Jewish believer) and say that you are correct, Jesus was only a man, and not divine?

Not so fast. .

Since Jesus/Isa , born of the Virgin Mary/Maryam - was “fathered” by God’s/Allah’s Breath/Spirit,
Jesus/Isa is supremely distinguished from and above all other men fathered by a Human father because now it is God/Allah who has “fathered/Created” Jesus/Isa in human form…

_

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

Here we go again. One of these kind of threads.

 

[EndTimes]

Here we go again. One of these kind of threads.

You means the kind which make some go Plotz?

 

[openmind77]

Also, I am not sure if the Hindu avatar means the same thing as the Christian Person. Hindus say that Vishnu (God) is one but has several avatars, the most known being Krishna, Rama, Narayana and Vasudeva

Actually Hinduism also has three main Gods - Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. The second person of these three is Vishnu who is the one who has Avatars - Rama, Krishna etc. So Hinduism has many, many personal Gods, but only three main ones.

 

[AlNg]

Actually Hinduism also has three main Gods - Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.

I did not know that Hinduism was a monolithic faith where everyone has to believe the same thing. I thought that there were different sects in Hinduism where people can choose the different interpretations. I thought that Krishna followers generally adhered to a monotheistic belief with Vishnu being the one Supreme God but with many other lesser deities.
I was speaking of the Dvaita school of Vaishnavism which holds that Vishnu is the Supreme God. However, there are other denominations which teach the Trimurti which is one God but with three different functions. Brahma is the creator, Vishnu is the preserver and Shiva is the destroyer. However, Vaishnavism generally does not teach Trimurti but says that Shiva and Brahma are forms of Vishnu. Anyone can read the following Vedic Scriptures and see that they speak of Vishnu as the supreme Brahman: Mahanarayanopanishad, Narayaropanishad, Mahopanishad, Shubhalopanishad .

 

[EndTimes]

Krishna - is a term cognate with Kristos… Christ … Lord…
The story of Krishna has some resemblences to that our our Lord
This doesn’t mean the source of the Gospel account is Hindu
Apostle Thomas landed in India - 2000 years ago.

Just saying…

 

[EndTimes]

Love can be understood in two ways:

God is LOVE … AGAPE…

For Starters…

Spirit of Wisdom
Spirit of Understanding
Spirit of Counsel
Spirit of Fortitude
Spirit of Knowledge
Spirit of Godliness
Spirit of Fear of the Lord

 

[openmind77]

I did not know that Hinduism was a monolithic faith where everyone has to believe the same thing. I thought that there were different sects in Hinduism where people can choose the different interpretations. I thought that Krishna followers generally adhered to a monotheistic belief with Vishnu being the one Supreme God but with many other lesser deities.
I was speaking of the Dvaita school of Vaishnavism which holds that Vishnu is the Supreme God. However, there are other denominations which teach the Trimurti which is one God but with three different functions. Brahma is the creator, Vishnu is the preserver and Shiva is the destroyer. However, Vaishnavism generally does not teach Trimurti but says that Shiva and Brahma are forms of Vishnu. Anyone can read the following Vedic Scriptures and see that they speak of Vishnu as the supreme Brahman: Mahanarayanopanishad, Narayaropanishad, Mahopanishad, Shubhalopanishad

You quite right that Hinduism is not a monolithic faith and everyone is not required to believe in the same thing. However all Hindus believe in the three main Gods - the difference between sects is which one is considered the supreme among them.

As you said Vaishnavites consider Vishnu as the Supreme one. Shaivites consider Shiva as the supreme one. Some Shaktas may even say that the Goddess is supreme.

But as far as I know, no one says that Shiva and Brahma are forms of Vishnu - the three are always considered to be distinct and separate.

 

[EndTimes]

But as far as I know, no one says that Shiva and Brahma are forms of Vishnu - the three are always considered to be distinct and separate.

Garbhodakaśāyī Vishnu is an expansion of Mahā Vishnu . In Gaudīya Vaishnavism the Sātvata-tantra describes three different forms of Vishnu as: Mahā Vishnu , Garbhodakaśāyī Vishnu and Ksirodakaśāyī Vishnu (Paramātmā). Each form has a different role in the maintenance of the Universe and its inhabitants.

---

There are many faiths/religions/belief-systems -
which contain in various measure - portions of TRUTH…
Including the full Truth as is revealed via JESUS who is TRUTH

 

[mhmtas63]

There are many faiths/religions/belief-systems -
which contain in various measure - portions of TRUTH…
Including the full Truth as is revealed via JESUS who is TRUTH

“JESUS who is TRUTH” …

Truth of what? I think the truth of your conjectures!

 

[EndTimes]

Truth of what?

It’s not … Truth of what.

Jesus IS Truth…