Trinity and Mormon godhead

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mf,

Why are you trying to take things so literally? I get the feeling that you have no desire to understand or that you’ve decided the whole thing is nonsense and therefore cannot make sense at all. Trinitarians aren’t the only ones who have to struggle with the concept of personhood you know-- anyone who is alive does.
Honestly because I think Mormonism is very clear, and you are trying to make what is clear, unclear.

I don’t struggle with the concept of personhood at all. Human beings are people. The singular of people is person.

It’s that simple. If it has human being genes, it’s a person so that includes embryos.

Why do you struggle with that concept? Why do you always make things so hard? We have been through that question before as you know! Life does not have to be a lot of angst about “being a person”. Relax already! Quit being an existentialist, and you’ll be fine!
 
Rebecca: There are philosophies that didn’t originate in the west.

RA: Agreed. Like Christianity

MFB: Honestly because I think Mormonism is very clear, and you are trying to make what is clear, unclear.

RA: Mormonism makes “clear” what they allege is “clear” only by using methods that are inconsistent with both the biblical texts and biblical history. (And this is not even bringing into consideration numerous problems with changed doctrines/holy writ within Mormonism, and the historical origins of the faith.)

We can talk about any or all of these things, or you can read either one or both of my books on Mormonism and comment. Up to you. I mean no disrespect, but I have studied Mormonism rather extensively. I do wish you all the best in your journey.

R. Abanes
 
Honestly because I think Mormonism is very clear, and you are trying to make what is clear, unclear.

I don’t struggle with the concept of personhood at all. Human beings are people. The singular of people is person.

It’s that simple. If it has human being genes, it’s a person so that includes embryos.

Why do you struggle with that concept? Why do you always make things so hard? We have been through that question before as you know! Life does not have to be a lot of angst about “being a person”. Relax already! Quit being an existentialist, and you’ll be fine!
I think Mormonism is clear too. When did I imply otherwise? It’s clear but I also happen to think it’s dead wrong.

If you don’t struggle wit hthe concept of person, you aren’t thinking very deeply about the topic. This isn’t about making things hard-- I mean look at the philosophical literature out there about this. It’s an odd question!

Think about this-- if every seven years you have a different cells in your body, different molecules, what is it that makes you you?

If you get brain damaged and your personality completely and utterly changes, are you still you? What makes you you in that case?

mf I’m beginning to think you’r ea bit of a flake ;).
 
I think Mormonism is clear too. When did I imply otherwise? It’s clear but I also happen to think it’s dead wrong.

If you don’t struggle wit hthe concept of person, you aren’t thinking very deeply about the topic. This isn’t about making things hard-- I mean look at the philosophical literature out there about this. It’s an odd question!

Think about this-- if every seven years you have a different cells in your body, different molecules, what is it that makes you you?

If you get brain damaged and your personality completely and utterly changes, are you still you? What makes you you in that case?

mf I’m beginning to think you’r ea bit of a flake ;).
Seriously, if you really think this is all silliness, why have you been wasting my time?
 
Rebecca: There are philosophies that didn’t originate in the west.

RA: Agreed. Like Christianity
🙂

Philosophies that didn’t originate from Judeo-Christianity. Better?

In particular, I was thinking of the Indian philosophy samkhya and those found in the Upanishad. Though, being Catholic I AM Catholic, there are philosophies here that better describe certain concepts. Perhaps, more mature in their development. “Discipleship”, certainly is one.

The philosophy of being is very central, though, contrasts greatly in some areas to Christianity. The first and most important, that the divine being is found within oneself. Not a Christian belief or thought.
 
Rbecca,

If you like the concept of divine *being within us, look no further than the Christian concept of all of us being created in the image of God - the Imago Dei *inherent to all God’s children.

The problem with the Hindu concept of the *being *within us all, of course, is that it negates a personal God and diminishes “God” down to an impersonal essence not only throughout the universe, but also within our own selves (our very nature/being/essence). Hence, the concept we are “God” (i.e., actually one with all that is, and with each other, thereby making form an illusion).

This is all very problematic, according to both RC and Protestantism, which look to the Bible as the source of truth about the nature of God and humanity.

At best I think Hinduism merely supports the inter-connected aspect of all life, and important issue. But it does so by disturbing reality of our TRUE individuality, and by making “God” an impersonal force.

R.A.
 
Rebecca: There are philosophies that didn’t originate in the west.

RA: Agreed. Like Christianity

MFB: Honestly because I think Mormonism is very clear, and you are trying to make what is clear, unclear.

RA: Mormonism makes “clear” what they allege is “clear” only by using methods that are inconsistent with both the biblical texts and biblical history. (And this is not even bringing into consideration numerous problems with changed doctrines/holy writ within Mormonism, and the historical origins of the faith.)

We can talk about any or all of these things, or you can read either one or both of my books on Mormonism and comment. Up to you. I mean no disrespect, but I have studied Mormonism rather extensively. I do wish you all the best in your journey.

R. Abanes
Aha! You want to sell me a book!

Are you sure you are not Ed Decker? I have heard he has also fallen on hard times.

I have also studied Mormonism extensively, and studied every anti-Mormon argument I can lay my hands on. I disagree that it is inconsistent with the bible.

I have answered every one I have heard of here and elsewhere.

This is a thread on the trinity. Fire away. If you want to start a thread on another subject, be my guest.

If you want to argue opinions on biblical interpretation we can do that for a little bit, but that’s all it will be. It will be a waste of time.

Let me ask you one. How do you know the bible is true?
 
I think Mormonism is clear too. When did I imply otherwise? It’s clear but I also happen to think it’s dead wrong.

If you don’t struggle wit hthe concept of person, you aren’t thinking very deeply about the topic. This isn’t about making things hard-- I mean look at the philosophical literature out there about this. It’s an odd question!

Think about this-- if every seven years you have a different cells in your body, different molecules, what is it that makes you you?

If you get brain damaged and your personality completely and utterly changes, are you still you? What makes you you in that case?

mf I’m beginning to think you’r ea bit of a flake ;).
Well, I do have some dandruff, but my personhood is more than that. You have not comprehended the fullness of my being. Flakiness is simply a contingent quality I posess, but it is not my metaphysical essence 😉

If you get brain damage, you are a person with brain damage. My mother who is 85 has serious dementia. Her personality has changed somewhat, but in many ways, she is very much the same. She is still a person, and the same person she always was, just different. I really would not debate if she is the same person. She is my mother.

I might say “she is not the same person she used to be” but no one would say “What? check her name tag- She is not your mother?? Where did we put your mother? Who is this woman?”

We don’t really have issues of that kind unless we are talking about multiple personality disorder. And even then, it is the same person with multiple “personalities

So every seven years YOU are a different person? Maybe I should come back in seven years (ba-da- bum) 😃

I left academic philosophy because I felt it would be “inauthentic” in an existential sense to continue. Don’t know if you know Richard Rorty, but look him up if you want to see where I am coming from. I am convinced that deconstruction is where it’s at, but to do that for a living is ridiculous. It is a tool. Today saying that you “do philosophy” is like saying “I hammer”. To use that tool against people who are attacking my religion is a different thing. They had better get it perfectly clear or fergetaboudit. :cool:

Once it is clear, we can discuss the merits of the argument. But if I can’t even understand the argument, I will not be able to be convinced, and in my opinion, no one else should be.

The existence of much philosophical literature on any subject, to me, often a counter-indication of how important that subject is in real life.

People don’t argue about food clothing or shelter or if family is important.

Only atheists argue about if God is important, and they believe in a negative proposition “God does not exist”

Everyone knows you can’t prove a negative proposition, so how much faith does that take?

Atheists have to have more faith than I could ever muster! In a position that logically cannot be proven!

As far as thinking “deeply” the only deep I worry about is when hip boots are required, which is often around here.

My advice is to stop brooding and being “deep” and trying to fathom the unfathomable because it is contradictory at its core. Life is a lot more interesting worry about real problems instead of those that cannot be solved
 
Seriously, if you really think this is all silliness, why have you been wasting my time?
Take some responsibility kiddo
I could ask the same question. I am trying to convince you that you are wrong and I am right-- same thing you are doing. It is called examining the other person’s opinion.

If you think this is a collaborative effort at the construction of a theory of the trinity, I already have one, and you know that!
 
🙂

Philosophies that didn’t originate from Judeo-Christianity. Better?

In particular, I was thinking of the Indian philosophy samkhya and those found in the Upanishad. Though, being Catholic I AM Catholic, there are philosophies here that better describe certain concepts. Perhaps, more mature in their development. “Discipleship”, certainly is one.

The philosophy of being is very central, though, contrasts greatly in some areas to Christianity. The first and most important, that the divine being is found within oneself. Not a Christian belief or thought.
But more Mormon than Catholic
 
Rbecca,

If you like the concept of divine *being within us, look no further than the Christian concept of all of us being created in the image of God - the Imago Dei *inherent to all God’s children.
Agreed!! 🙂 It is in fact something I have expressed to others. That being a disciple of Jesus is following His Way. (Following a Way also very much something I understand from a Eastern philosophical POV.) And that clearly, where He leads is in fact a direct result of who we are created to be. The Catholic term “becoming Holy”…I completely embrace the becoming part. We work at becoming who we are meant to be. Which, of course, is a grace given to us by God, but requires our cooperation. Which cooperation I view a seeking to be who God created me to be. The divine, within.

When I speak in these terms I have a clear Eastern philosophy behind them, with an understanding of who I am, a Christian. A Catholic.

I should state, I practiced Iyenger yoga for many years (no longer). And studied the underlying philosophy which is that of Putanjali. Catholics would call it, discerning. I was actually discerning whether or not I wanted to be a disciple of those teachings. I found that I did not. I stayed in my atheism for a few years after that. But the practice of being has stayed with me, just, I focus that being on Jesus Christ.
The problem with the Hindu concept of the *being *within us all, of course, is that it negates a personal God and diminishes “God” down to an impersonal essence not only throughout the universe, but also within our own selves (our very nature/being/essence). Hence, the concept we are “God” (i.e., actually one with all that is, and with each other, thereby making form an illusion).
This is all very problematic, according to both RC and Protestantism, which look to the Bible as the source of truth about the nature of God and humanity.
At best I think Hinduism merely supports the inter-connected aspect of all life, and important issue. But it does so by disturbing reality of our TRUE individuality, and by making “God” an impersonal force.
Agreed! 👍
 
Take some responsibility kiddo
I could ask the same question. I am trying to convince you that you are wrong and I am right-- same thing you are doing. It is called examining the other person’s opinion.

If you think this is a collaborative effort at the construction of a theory of the trinity, I already have one, and you know that!
You’re trying to convince me by not taking my argument seriously and not attempting to understand what I’m saying? If you don’t get why it’s important, you aren’t going to get it. Simple as that.

Mormons in general don’t seem to understand why it matters. I suppose that how most Mormons manage to remain Mormons.
 
MFB: Aha! You want to sell me a book! Are you sure you are not Ed Decker? I have heard he has also fallen on hard times.

RA: Friend, really, there is no need to be nasty. Get them at the library, for all I care. or, go to a bookstore, get a cup of coffee, and read it in the store. Or borrow it. Again, I don’t really care.

MFB: I have also studied Mormonism extensively, and studied every anti-Mormon argument I can lay my hands on. I disagree that it is inconsistent with the bible.

RA: You, and others. That doesn’t mean you are right.

MFB: I have answered every one I have heard of here and elsewhere.

RA: An answer doesn’t equal truth.

R.A.
 
MFB: I am just tired of having my religion criticized by people holding positions that are incomprehensible …

RA: Oh, really? So, you are saying that for any doctrine to be true it must NOT be thought of as incomprehensible???

And, if I were you, I would be very very very very careful how you answer here.

As for the Trinity, it is perfectly comprehensible. In fact, I have no problem comprehending it just fine – as do many others. Understanding WHAT the Trinity is, is not the issue. But fully comprehending HOW the trinity is, is where our finite minds have a limit. These, of course, are very different things.
 
Agreed!! 🙂 It is in fact something I have expressed to others. That being a disciple of Jesus is following His Way. (Following a Way also very much something I understand from a Eastern philosophical POV.) And that clearly, where He leads is in fact a direct result of who we are created to be. The Catholic term “becoming Holy”…I completely embrace the becoming part. We work at becoming who we are meant to be. Which, of course, is a grace given to us by God, but requires our cooperation. Which cooperation I view a seeking to be who God created me to be. The divine, within.

When I speak in these terms I have a clear Eastern philosophy behind them, with an understanding of who I am, a Christian. A Catholic.

I should state, I practiced Iyenger yoga for many years (no longer). And studied the underlying philosophy which is that of Putanjali. Catholics would call it, discerning. I was actually discerning whether or not I wanted to be a disciple of those teachings. I found that I did not. I stayed in my atheism for a few years after that. But the practice of being has stayed with me, just, I focus that being on Jesus Christ.

Agreed! 👍
I have incorporated eastern mysticism into my belief system (mostly Daoism) for years and also meditate regularly. Oddly, my meditation techniques are related to Jewish Kabbalah techniques. I find all these compatible with Mormonism and even the Daoism conceptually with “opposition in all things”.

For all my protestations against “being” I strive to transform myself into a Christ- being through total surrender of my will and self.

But then you guys get me all worked up and the ego comes out again. :mad: 😉 It’s all your fault!
 
… get a cup of coffee, and read it in the store. Or borrow it. Again, I don’t really care.
HMMmm are you really sure you have studied what we believe?

Not likely I will have the time or desire to do any of the above, but if you want to talk about the trinity, here we are.

I think you fired the first salvo, “friend”
 
MFB: HMMmm are you really sure you have studied what we believe?

**RA: **🤓 er, most definitely. LoL. Oh, yes, most definitely. I have a huge library of LDS materials. My two books on the subject total 1,100 pages, including nearly 300 pages of just endnotes. I would venture to say that I know both LDS doctrine and history extremely well.

R.A.
 
MFB,

You are a card-carrying Mormon? I joined the thread very late, so I might have missed that early on. In fact, if you go back to my first post, when I posted that, it was not in response to anyone or anything. I only knew it was a Trinity thread.

MFB: For all my protestations against “being” I strive to transform myself into a Christ- being through total surrender of my will and self. But then you guys get me all worked up and the ego comes out again.

RA: I think you’ve been reading too much Eckhart Tolle. 😛
 
MFB: I am just tired of having my religion criticized by people holding positions that are incomprehensible …

RA: Oh, really? So, you are saying that for any doctrine to be true it must NOT be thought of as incomprehensible???

And, if I were you, I would be very very very very careful how you answer here.

Wow 3 "verys’?? OOO I’m scared now! You mean I might answer wrongly? Oh no! not make a mistake! Anything but that!. I make mistakes all the time and am not afraid of them. My ego is bad but not THAT bad! Obviously it depends on what you mean by “incomprehensible” and I stand by my quote. I am a mystic as are all Mormons so we have a healthy sense of what is incomprehensible and what is not. Reality is incomprehensible. Experience of reality is totally comprehensible. I am a pragmatist. Check out William James and Ludwig Wittgenstein to find out what I think about what is or is not incomprehensible. But you seem to be an educated guy. You have written books! You already know I am sure, so you know exactly how to demolish my position. I cannot conceive of anything which is both incomprehensible and “true” How could it be? Propositions taken on faith are neither true nor false by definition. Give me your best shot.

As for the Trinity, it is perfectly comprehensible. In fact, I have no problem comprehending it just fine – as do many others. Understanding WHAT the Trinity is, is not the issue. But fully comprehending HOW the trinity is, is where our finite minds have a limit. These, of course, are very different things.

Just examine it’s “howness”. I suspect it going to be you who are incomprehensible. You already are. “How the trinity is?” What does that mean? I am sure they are fine thank you very much, getting over the cold and feeling better! 😉 (dodging lightning bolts). But seriously, what else does that mean? "How the trinity is? "
 
MFB,

You are a card-carrying Mormon? I joined the thread very late, so I might have missed that early on. In fact, if you go back to my first post, when I posted that, it was not in response to anyone or anything. I only knew it was a Trinity thread.

MFB: For all my protestations against “being” I strive to transform myself into a Christ- being through total surrender of my will and self. But then you guys get me all worked up and the ego comes out again.

RA: I think you’ve been reading too much Eckhart Tolle. 😛
About as card carrying as you can get.
 
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