Trinity and Mormon godhead

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The Trinity at first does appear to be illogical, an unnecessary complication. When I first heard it, I thought, huh? Why not just God?

The Trinity was an unnecessary complication for the ancient Hebrews, who had to contend with a multiplicity of pagan gods. The oneness of their God had to be emphasized.

But with Christian revelation, more of the nature and the structure of the Godhead was revealed. It was revealed that the Godhead had a structure, and, it is a structure that logically would also be echoed in God’s creation.

Because Scripture tells us that it is proper to look to God’s creation to learn about the God who created it. “The heaven’s reflect the glory of Thy handiwork.” And, Romans 1:20, “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through that which has been made, so that they are without excuse.”

Is there anything in creation, in nature, that could correspond to the Trinity? I believe there is. My background is mechanical engineering, so I look to principles in physics that may compare. For me, they are in Newton’s Laws of Motion.

Newton’s third law states, “For every action there is an equal reaction.” That is, for every force there is an equal counterforce. There is no force existing in isolation, no action that does also not have a reaction. Simply no such thing. Doesn’t exist. Just like the sound of one hand clapping.

To understand this idea, when you are sitting you are exerting a force, your weight, against the chair. The chair in turn is exerting a counterforce, a reaction, on you. Action and reaction. Note that this pair of forces are equal, are simultaneous, and exist in the same place. Also, in a sense, your weight can be thought of as “father” to the counterforce, the force against your butt, and counterforce as “son.”

We begin to see the relationship, the necessity of the relationship, between the Father and the Son.

Since God is force, is action, there must also be a counteforce, a reaction, for God. What can that be but God Himself? It is God Himself, but also something that can be conceptually separated from God as well.

That something is the Son. The Son of God, the equal counteforce to God, the Father.

There can be, therefore, no such thing as a singular Jehovah, or Allah. To create and exist, the duality of the Father and the Son must be, by necessity. A singular figure cannot exist, nor create.

But what of the Holy Spirit? Newton’s second law, the dynamic one, explains the Holy Spirit. (“And a mighty wind swept across the face of the waters”) The Holy Spirit is dynamic, is motion, is acceleration.
The second law states that an acceleration is produced between the interaction between force and reaction force, just as in a rocket. Acceleration is equal to the force divided by mass (mass providing the inertial reaction force corresponding to the Son). The Holy Spirit is then motion, and the energy in the universe.

The originator of all force is the Father, but that force cannot exist without the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the consequence of the interaction of the Father and Son. All essence can be seen to come from the Father, but the Holy Spirit from them both. (This seems to favor the filioque clause in the creed.) God is a personal God, so each of these is a person. A Trinity.

God must, by necessity, be structured. That structure is revealed in creation.
 
Dang. I sat here for 5 minutes trying to come up with a real good zinger for a comeback, and couldn’t come up with any. That is really disconcerting considering being omniscient and all. 🤷

You should ask my wife about my omniscience. 😉

You have to realize that for all my wit charm and good looks, I am not a kid anymore, and one gets to a point in life where the questions really do go away. That definitely doesn’t mean I have the answers that others ask, just that I have been fortunate to be blessed with a pretty calm certitude about how God works and my place in the universe. You also get to a point where you really feel you don’t have to impress anyone, or take a position because others think you should.

I think it’s called being an onery old cuss, or perhaps early onset Alzheimers. 😃

And all this trying to get the language right just comes from too much Wittgenstein, and the lack of patience with talking about stuff that doesn’t make a difference from too much William James.
I know plenty of … ahem… well seasoned folks who are thoughtful as you are who have not lost a sense of wonder and astonishment at life. I don’t think this is an issue of age. It’s something else, a forgetfulness of what the question really entails maybe. I stopped having existential crises years ago, but I don’t forget what it was that triggered those responses. It keeps me in awe of God and his creation. Everytime I think I make a solid advance, and I do make advances, it only opens up a new can of worms. I realize through increased knowledge, or even exchanges like these, that I know even less than I thought I did. A lack of that in a person, no matter how well seasoned, seems troublesome.
 
I know plenty of … ahem… well seasoned folks who are thoughtful as you are who have not lost a sense of wonder and astonishment at life. I don’t think this is an issue of age. It’s something else, a forgetfulness of what the question really entails maybe. I stopped having existential crises years ago, but I don’t forget what it was that triggered those responses. It keeps me in awe of God and his creation. Everytime I think I make a solid advance, and I do make advances, it only opens up a new can of worms. I realize through increased knowledge, or even exchanges like these, that I know even less than I thought I did. A lack of that in a person, no matter how well seasoned, seems troublesome.
I meant to reply to this, but somehow it got lost in the shuffle.

Well I am well seasoned, but not yet pickled completely 😉

I just turned 60 in July, so as with any of those birthdays ending in a zero, it has been a time of reflection. Of course, I feel about half that age, but I am far smarter than I was at 30. Slower, but smarter

I think I understand your point, but all I am saying is that my world view is now developed to the point where there are fewer and fewer cans of worms that I have not already dealt with.

There is a difference between wonder and awe at the universe, and surprise. When I see an amazing sunset, I can just thank God for it rather than wondering about who the artist was, or why he painted such a picture.

I hope I haven’t troubled you too much! 😉
 
**MFB: **And this is how Richard Abanes knows that the bible is true, for all his protestations against mysticism.

RA: I would greatly appreciate it if you didn’t put words in my mouth. I am fairly mystical – to a certain degree – in my personal faith. I speak to God, and he speaks to me. I hear his voice, and I answer. The Lord also has spoken to me both by dreams and visions. SO, please, don’t tell people I believe or don’t believe certain things. TY. 👍

RA
 
**MFB: **And this is how Richard Abanes knows that the bible is true, for all his protestations against mysticism.

RA: I would greatly appreciate it if you didn’t put words in my mouth. I am fairly mystical – to a certain degree – in my personal faith. I speak to God, and he speaks to me. I hear his voice, and I answer. The Lord also has spoken to me both by dreams and visions. SO, please, don’t tell people I believe or don’t believe certain things. TY. 👍

RA
Didn’t mean to do that.

Would you please tell me then how you know the bible is the word of God?
 
MFB: Would you please tell me then how you know the bible is the word of God?

RA: Divine revelation, historical accuracy, internal consistency, anecdotal evidence – combined as checks and balances.

RA
 
MFB: Would you please tell me then how you know the bible is the word of God?

RA: Divine revelation, historical accuracy, internal consistency, anecdotal evidence – combined as checks and balances.

RA
So in the case of personal revelation, dreams etc of a personal nature, how do you know these are from God? And on the other side, you cited historical accuracy. Aren’t there many interpretations of history? How do you know which is correct?
 
MFB,

This is a long conversation over a cup of coffee, tbh, my friend.

But all I can say is that it wouldn’t take long for me (and indeed, it didn’t take long for me) to look at the *BOM *and see it for the fraudulent document that it is – and on a number of levels.

RA
 
MFB,

This is a long conversation over a cup of coffee, tbh, my friend.

But all I can say is that it wouldn’t take long for me (and indeed, it didn’t take long for me) to look at the *BOM *and see it for the fraudulent document that it is – and on a number of levels.

RA
So you don’t want to answer me? I’m a patient guy. 😃

Not to mention good looking. 😉

(It would have to be something other than coffee) :cool:
 
So you don’t want to answer me? I’m a patient guy. 😃

Not to mention good looking. 😉

(It would have to be something other than coffee) :cool:
I’d even come to you - I am up in southern LA county just up the 5 from where you hang out.
 
**MFB: **I am up in southern LA county just up the 5 from where you hang out.

RA: I don’t do that with online acquaintances. You might have the wrong chat room. :rotfl:

RA
 
**MFB: **I am up in southern LA county just up the 5 from where you hang out.

RA: I don’t do that with online acquaintances. You might have the wrong chat room. :rotfl:

RA
That was if you didn’t want to discuss it here for whatever reason.

Suppose I convert you? :rotfl:
 
MF: Suppose I convert you?

RA: I can assure you, that will *not *happen. 😃

RA
 
**Stephen: **the mormon godhead seems finite like us

RA: Actually, what’s really interesting is…you’re right.

If you look at the body of other lectures and writings of Smith, you will see that according to Smith the only thing truly eternal is something he called “intelligence” or “Intelligences.”

Both us *and *“God” were created out of this cosmic element. From eternal “intelligence(s)” we were formed by Heavenly Father and his wife, Heavenly Mother, via regular procreation in the heavenly realms (just as we procreate children here on earth).

After being conceived spiritually, just as we are conceived physically, we were born in heaven as spirit babies. There, in God’s celestial home, near a star named Kolob, we were raised to maturity, after which time we came to earth to continue our “eternal progression” to godhood.

This “eternal progression” is the same path walked by Heavenly Father, who after being born somewhere a spirit baby himself, was born as a man on a planet somewhere. He lived, died, was resurrected, and then went on to become a god just like we can become a god, and just like all other gods before us have done.

In other words, we are all just one big, happy, God-species family trying to progress our way to godhood, after which time we’ll have our own Celestial wife (but you have to land her while on earth, guys, sorry), our own Celestial kingdom, and then our own Celestial family who will worship us as we worship our Heavenly Father.

Cool, huh? 🍿

RA
see
ONE NATION UNDER GODS - Mormon History
INSIDE TODAY’S MORMONISM - Mormon Doctrine
 
The whole Mormon thing of limiting God serves only to deifiy man. Anthropomorphosis of God.
 
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