Trinity and Mormon godhead

[TOmNossor]

Again, here is my statement:

No ECF before Nicea when talking about human deification (human theosis / “men becoming gods”) placed any limits on the FINAL state of deified man. Instead, they along with modern LDS boldly stated that through the grace of Christ we would become gods. They did not say “but only in the communicable attributes.” After Nicea it became increasingly popular to state that there were limits upon what it meant for humans to become gods.

Charity, TOm

Charity, TOm

 

[BDawg]

Hello, Richard,

T: “Official LDS doctrine” as you have REPEATEDLY been told is contained in the LDS standard works.

RA: Well, that’s what i keep saying. I stick to the Standard Works and authoritative quotes. But apparently FARMS/FAIR think differently since now they are pulling in all kinds of other sources like the ECF (and their own arguments) that are found nowhere in the Standard Works. (And, besides, Heavenly Mother is in none of the Standard Works, and you believe in her.)

I’m not sure what your point is. Are you disputing something that Tom said about Mormon doctrine? What?

For instance, I told Ashley that she misrepresented our doctrine by saying that Mormons believe that we will be gods independent of the Father. I quoted Brigham Young twice to establish my point. Why did I do that? Because if I am trying to establish what Mormons believe, our scriptures and prophets are good sources.

It seemed to me, however, that Tom was making a historical argument about how Christians INITIALLY interpreted theosis. If that’s the argument, then what sources are there to support his claims? I suppose he could cite a) the New Testament, b) the ECFs, c) a few other pieces of ancient Christian literature, and d) modern patristics scholars.

And that’s exactly what he did.

On the other hand, quoting LDS general authorities to establish what the early Christians believed would be…idiotic.

I’m sure it would be ever so nice for you if all the LDS folks here agreed to only lob you idiotic arguments to bat down, but frankly, we don’t like you that much.

If you really want to make us your buddies, why don’t you try actually responding to our arguments, rather than making up silly ones to respond to?

 

[BDawg]

Just an observation…

But it seems to me that with all this discussion of “deification” and “reward” that mormonism is lacking the central, underlying theme and primary teaching of Christ. Not only Christ, but the message God has been impressing upon us from the beginning of time…

Where is LOVE in all of this? Where is the self sacrificing, self giving, humble and pure love that our Father asks of us?

Hello, Ashley,

The kind of love you are talking about is exactly what we believe it takes to “overcome the world” and sit with Jesus and the Father on their throne (Rev. 3:21).

Thank you for asking.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

B: we don’t like you that much. If you really want to make us your buddies, why don’t you try actually responding to our arguments, rather than making up silly ones to respond to?

RA: Sad… Very well, whatever.

RA

 

[Tonks40]

So let’s say that we’re all meant to become “gods.”

I thought Adam and Eve, at the beginning of creation, before sin entered the world, were created EXACTLY as God intends for us all to be, correct?

So…if they were already as God intended them… why would satan tempt them to become gods? Wouldn’t they have already BEEN gods?

And you can try to tell us that the catholic notion of theosis is just like the mormon idea of deification, but you fail to accept that it IS.NOT.THE.SAME.

Ashley - this is one of the best refutations of this Mormon doctrine I’ve seen.

Hm…where’s that verse??..ah yes…

GEN 3:5 “No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad.”

Why was this not addressed by our Mormon friends here?

 

[AshleyBelle]

(My original post by AshleyBelle
So let’s say that we’re all meant to become “gods.”

I thought Adam and Eve, at the beginning of creation, before sin entered the world, were created EXACTLY as God intends for us all to be, correct?

So…if they were already as God intended them… why would satan tempt them to become gods? Wouldn’t they have already BEEN gods?

And you can try to tell us that the catholic notion of theosis is just like the mormon idea of deification, but you fail to accept that it IS.NOT.THE.SAME.

Certainly not in LDS thought and I do not think in Catholic thought either. I would need to review what Keating said on this, but I doubt he would accept it either.
If Adam and Eve pre-fall are absolutely equivalent to post-resurrection humanity this introduces a volume of problems for Catholicism IMO. Certainly Catholic philosophers will reject this idea.
So, the LDS does not believe that Adam and Eve pre-fall is the same as deified humans. I really do not think any Catholic theologian believes Adam and Eve pre-fall are the same as Saints in heaven either. Are you sure you want to assert this?

Yes, I want to assert this, and yes I am asserting this.

God created us perfectly. He didn't make a mistake and later decide that when we go to heaven we will be perfect in a different way. He created us AS HE INTENDED us to be...which is how we will be restored to Him in heaven.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Ashley - this is one of the best refutations of this Mormon doctrine I’ve seen.

Hm…where’s that verse??..ah yes…

Why was this not addressed by our Mormon friends here?

Thank you for the amazing compliment!

It was addressed by our mormon friends, although they have blatently said they “don’t much care for us” so I’m sure they don’t appreciate us calling them “friend…”

God bless you

 

[BDawg]

RA: Whatever Tom, right. It’s always us who are so ignorant. The RCC and the EO who inherited teh very term theosis don’t know nything about what they’re talking about. Stop hi-jacking words like theosis in an effort to justify Smith’s heresy. Sorry. That’s the truth.

Hello, Richard,

It seems to me that Tom was quoted a Catholic historians to make one of his points. He noted that he didn’t agree with everything this scholar said, but that most of it was very enlightening. Snow and I both approvingly quoted Anglican historians.

So really, it isn’t “RCC and EO,” or even Protestants who don’t know anything about it. It’s people who don’t actually read many books about early Christian doctrinal history. Like you.

Let me point out another aspect of your ignorance that you have just displayed. You accuse us of “hijacking” a word like “theosis.” Actually, the word just refers to “the process of becoming a god.” The Christians were not the first ones to use words like this, and neither were they the last. That being the case, it seems silly to argue about who owns the word.

Instead, why not argue about whose idea of what theosis entails is more correct?

 

[TOmNossor]

Yes, I want to assert this, and yes I am asserting this.

God created us perfectly. He didn’t make a mistake and later decide that when we go to heaven we will be perfect in a different way. He created us AS HE INTENDED us to be…which is how we will be restored to Him in heaven.
Well, I am pretty sure you should not be asserting this.
Daniel Keating is an Associate Professor of Theology at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit. Part of the reason I got his book is that Father Thomas Weinandy, a Catholic author highly respected by me and by folks who count, wrote a bit for the back cover of Keating’s book.

It would seem the Keating directly refutes your statement on page 108:

The story of the Fall of our race as it comes to us in Genesis is marked by the ironic promise made by the serpent to Eve: “When you eat of [the fruit] your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God” (Gen 3:5). Just as the devil would later tempt Christ, the Second Adam, with a distorted view of his divine sonship (“If you are the Son of God,” Mt 4:3), so he beguiles Eve with a distorted account of God’s purpose (“If you eat, you will be like God”). There is a certain truth lodged in the serpent’s words. It was indeed the purpose of God that the human race become like God. This is what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God. In this respect the devil’s seduction was especially effective. He dressed up the path to disobedience with a promise that represented God’s true purpose for our race

. But instead of attaining to likeness to God through obedience and fear of the Lord as we were intended to do, we set out on our own path to “become like God,” imitating the disobedience of the devil, and reaping the fruit of death instead of partaking of the tree of life.

In addition to this, I might be able to find an ECF who claims that pre-fall Adam was not the same as heavenly resurrected Saints, but that might be tougher.

I should be able to find such a thing in other Catholic authors. The Glories of Divine Grace by Scheeben I think has something on this.

Finally, you have stated that you believe Catholic Saints in heaven like Adam choose to fall from grace as Adam did. That of itself would seem to be logically problematic.
Charity, TOm

 

[Snow]

So let’s say that we’re all meant to become “gods.”

I thought Adam and Eve, at the beginning of creation, before sin entered the world, were created EXACTLY as God intends for us all to be, correct?

I suppose that God accomplishes what God wants to accomplish - so yes.

So…if they were already as God intended them… why would satan tempt them to become gods? Wouldn’t they have already BEEN gods?

That’s kind of a nonsensical thought. Perhaps God intended them to be one way initially and then though a process of learning and developing and trying and failing and exercising faith, etc, to become another way.

God obviously sent man to earth for a reason and man comes into the world and life differently than he exits. That’s by God’s design is it not?

And you can try to tell us that the catholic notion of theosis is just like the mormon idea of deification, but you fail to accept that it IS.NOT.THE.SAME.

I haven’t read any LDS post that claimed that Patristic theosis was the same as LDS exaltation. Can you please tell who claimed that - in which post?

And of course it all comes down to authority. Catholic teaching comes directly from the apostles.

Can you please tell me which of apostles taught the Trinity, including homoousius as decreed in the Creeds of the 4th and 5th century?

Mormon teaching comes from … ?

Apostles

 

[AshleyBelle]

Well, I am pretty sure you should not be asserting this.
Daniel Keating is an Associate Professor of Theology at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit. Part of the reason I got his book is that Father Thomas Weinandy, a Catholic author highly respected by me and by folks who count, wrote a bit for the back cover of Keating’s book.

It would seem the Keating directly refutes your statement on page 108:

In addition to this, I might be able to find an ECF who claims that pre-fall Adam was not the same as heavenly resurrected Saints, but that might be tougher.

I should be able to find such a thing in other Catholic authors. The Glories of Divine Grace by Scheeben I think has something on this.

Finally, you have stated that you believe Catholic Saints in heaven like Adam choose to fall from grace as Adam did. That of itself would seem to be logically problematic.

Saints in heaven choose to fall from grace??? Nowhere have I asserted this idea.  The Saints in heaven are in perfect communion with God, and share in His nature just as Adam and Eve shared at the BEGINNING of creation.  I'm not talking about the saints falling, unless your'e trying to assert that the serpent somehow sneaks in heaven, bypasses all the angels, and snatches the saints one by one even though they are PERFECT AND HOLY like our Father..... The devil has no power, Christ made sure of that.

Charity, TOm

And I read the catholic author you quoted, and unless I stretch my brain to skew my thinking the way you seem to want me to, I see in no way how it implies Adam and Eve were NOT perfect and as God intended them to be before the fall…

We will be RESTORED to HIS PURPOSE… the purpose he had for us from the beginning, before we CHOSE to turn away from it. If Adam and eve had been “gods” from the start, Satan couldn’t have tempted them with the idea of “being like god.”

You can analyze that all you want, but God does not create imperfect beings. He did not make us one way and later decide He should have “done it better” to begin with. He made us as He wanted us, and we chose it wasn’t good enough for us. We chose to be slaves to sin.

So He came down, humbled himself in the form of a man, and sacrificed himself to FREE us from that slavery, so we could be restored to Him. The way he FIRST created us to BE.

 

[Snow]

Thank you for the amazing compliment!

It was addressed by our mormon friends, although they have blatently said they “don’t much care for us” so I’m sure they don’t appreciate us calling them “friend…”

God bless you

Really? Members of the Church of Jesus Christ say they don’t care for you (Catholics I assume)?

That’s a shame. I think Catholics rock. Fortunately the Mormons I know feel the same way.

 

[Snow]

Just an observation…

But it seems to me that with all this discussion of “deification” and “reward” that mormonism is lacking the central, underlying theme and primary teaching of Christ. Not only Christ, but the message God has been impressing upon us from the beginning of time…

Where is LOVE in all of this? Where is the self sacrificing, self giving, humble and pure love that our Father asks of us?

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that LDS culture and belief does not include sacrifice and giving and love - but that you, or Catholic culture and belief does?

 

[BDawg]

Ashley - this is one of the best refutations of this Mormon doctrine I’ve seen.

Hm…where’s that verse??..ah yes…

Why was this not addressed by our Mormon friends here?

Hello, Tonks,

I did address it. I noted that in Genesis 3:22, God said that Adam had become like one of them, knowing Good and Evil.

And I asked whether Ashley thinks that in the afterlife we will forget the difference between good and evil.

 

[AshleyBelle]

I suppose that God accomplishes what God wants to accomplish - so yes.

That’s kind of a nonsensical thought. Perhaps God intended them to be one way initially and then though a process of learning and developing and trying and failing and exercising faith, etc, to become another way.

After the fall, a “process of trying and failing and exercising faith” was necesary. Because we FAILED. Before the fall…none of this was needed because we were in perfect communion with God, as He intended us to be. Why would we NEED to be 'another way" than perfectly created?

God obviously sent man to earth for a reason and man comes into the world and life differently than he exits. That’s by God’s design is it not?

Yes… He sent man to earth for a reason. That reason is the underlying theme of all Scripture and all of human history. We were created because of God’s great love, and we were intended to share His glory and love Him as He loves us. We were created as perfect, pleasing, and good in God’s sight.

Man was never “intended” to “exit” the world. It is because of SIN, that this world is fleeting and death has entered. The world at the beginning of creation, was eternal and perfect. As it says “when Adam sinned, death entered the world.”

God’s design was for LIFE. Satan’s design and our choice, was death.

I haven’t read any LDS post that claimed that Patristic theosis was the same as LDS exaltation. Can you please tell who claimed that - in which post?

I can scroll back and read, but it was in this thread… .I’ll try to go back and copy/paste. Basically they are implying that CATHOLICS teach the SAME idea as mormons, because of our belief that we share in Christ’s divinity. It was never intended to fit the mormon definition of deification.

Can you please tell me which of apostles taught the Trinity, including homoousius as decreed in the Creeds of the 4th and 5th century?

The trinity was officially declared by the councils…it was held as tradition, because it is implied throughout scripture. Christ Himself commanded us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. He said that He and the Father are ONE. Scripture teaches the concept of trinity throughout, and it has always been the teaching of the Church that God is three persons in one. I will choose to follow the understanding of the Holy Catholic Church, ESPECIALLY in concepts that are mysteries or unable to be grasped by human understanding.

Apostles

So then, the leader of the mormon church should be the pope?

 

[BDawg]

Really? Members of the Church of Jesus Christ say they don’t care for you (Catholics I assume)?

That’s a shame. I think Catholics rock. Fortunately the Mormons I know feel the same way.

Me too. But I think she might be referring to what I said to Richard Abanes. I said we don’t like HIM enough to give in to his pleas to only make stupid arguments.

She also still seems to think that we are arguing that our view of theosis is the same as hers.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Hello, Tonks,

I did address it. I noted that in Genesis 3:22, God said that Adam had become like one of them, knowing Good and Evil.

And I asked whether Ashley thinks that in the afterlife we will forget the difference between good and evil.

The difference between good and evil won't matter in the afterlife.. We will no longer desire anything BUT good.  We will no longer desire anything of our own that is outside the Father's will, because we will be perfectly united to Him in love.

Evil will no longer exist

 

[mfbukowski]

(My original post by AshleyBelle
So let’s say that we’re all meant to become “gods.”

I thought Adam and Eve, at the beginning of creation, before sin entered the world, were created EXACTLY as God intends for us all to be, correct?

So…if they were already as God intended them… why would satan tempt them to become gods? Wouldn’t they have already BEEN gods?

And you can try to tell us that the catholic notion of theosis is just like the mormon idea of deification, but you fail to accept that it IS.NOT.THE.SAME.

Yes, I want to assert this, and yes I am asserting this.

God created us perfectly. He didn't make a mistake and later decide that when we go to heaven we will be perfect in a different way. He created us AS HE INTENDED us to be...which is how we will be restored to Him in heaven.

If you see this as a refutation of Mormonism, you don’t understand Mormonism at all.

“This is my work and my glory- to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man”

In other words, the way God “wants us” is to be like Him.

Adam and Eve were not gods in the garden.

The Mormon position is that the fall was PLANNED to occurr so that all mankind could have the opportunity to come to this world to be tested. Had the fall not occurred, that would not have been possible. If there had been no fall, there would be no atonement or resurrection.

 

[AshleyBelle]

If you see this as a refutation of Mormonism, you don’t understand Mormonism at all.

“This is my work and my glory- to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man”

In other words, the way God “wants us” is to be like Him.

Adam and Eve were not gods in the garden.

The Mormon position is that the fall was PLANNED to occurr so that all mankind could have the opportunity to come to this world to be tested. Had the fall not occurred, that would not have been possible. If there had been no fall, there would be no atonement or resurrection.

So…you’re trying to say that God created Adam and Eve with the PLAN to shove them butt naked out of the garden and into eternal condemnation? Because he WANTED to send His son into the world to suffer and die.

God planned for us to do evil?

He wanted the “opportunity” to test us? Are we lab rats for God now? Do you think it would have been loving for Him to create us just to watch us suffer and squirm and fail throughout history? Then as the ultimate LOVING act, thrust His son into this divine science experiment to atone for our miserable lives?

I still stand by my “where is the love and sacrificial self giving in the mormon theology” question.

 

[BDawg]

Hi Ashley,

It is interesting that you really do think that we will forget the difference between good and evil. Compare your viewpoint with that of St. Clement of Alexandria (ca. 200 A.D):

“O mystic wonder! The Lord was laid low, and man rose up; and he that fell from Paradise receives as the reward of obedience something greater [than Paradise]–namely, heaven itself.” (Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Heathen 11.)

He apparently thought that our heavenly reward will be greater than what was originally given.