Trinity Discussion Advice

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I am in a discussion of the Trinity with a dear friend and would like some advice on how to proceed from the statement in the last email I received. Here is the statement:

*Here is what I believe God revealed to me about Himself. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. That is Jesus referring to Himself in the beginning. Jesus is the Word of God.Jesus is the creator because He is the Word. God spoke and the world came into being. God said “Let there be” and creation happened. That was Jesus.

in the Old Testament wherever The Angel of the Lord appeared, I believe it was pre-incarnate Jesus. Wherever god manifested Himself to people (except the Glory Cloud), I believe it was Jesus. There is reference in the Old Testament to someone named melchizadech, (sp), New Testament eferences led me to believe melchizidek, (lol sp), was Jesus. God is Spirit. Spirit cannot be seen so God had to manifest Himself in such a way for man to understand Him. The Spirit of God came over Mary and God became flesh and blood. So Who is the Father? until then Jesus was a manifest Spirit. He became human, it’s like the white and the yolk separated. Jesus is now seated at theright hand of the Father. there are now two beings in heavens Throne Room. The Spirit is on earth with in Spirit filled believers. That is what I believe. If you want you can look up references to Angel of The Lord, and Melchizdek, or I can send you some over the weekend. You can also look up the Apostolic Church and see how they explain it*

I’ve brought up Mat 28:19 and 2Cor 13:14. I feel like I’m getting in a little over my head. Again, any advice on how to proceed or respond would be appreciated. Thanks.
 
Hi Mike,

Discounting the references to “Jesus” your friend sees in the Old Testament, just ask Him whether he believes Jesus is God. It seems he does. Does he confuse Jesus with lthe Holy Spirit? If he does, then how can Jesus speak about sending the Holy Spirit after he ascends into heaven?

Verbum
 
It doesn’t sound to me that your friend even understands the basics of the Trinity. Of course, there is always St Augustine’s book on The Trinity, but it might be a bit long to read.

You have to start simple, with Nature and Person. What is the Trinity? God. Who is the Trinity? The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Or, what is God? The Trinity. Who is God? The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

There is no pre-Incarnate Jesus. The Second Person exists in God from all eternity. Melchisedek was Noah’s son, Sem, who went to live at (Jeru)Salem after Babel, and therefore had the title, Melchisedek, meaning Righteous King of Salem (peace). Jesus has two natures, and the Divine person of the Second Person of the Trinity, and thus, is, as Mother Teresa called Him, the Human Face of God. The Second Person of the Trinity is outside of, and before time and history; Jesus is a true human being, a Son of Man by Mary, and as such had a beginning, and is subject to the laws of human history. Because He submitted Himself to death, even though as God, He could have avoided it, He has transformed history, and fulfilled its meaning by initiating the final phase that opens us to union with God, the Trinity, for all eternity. Jesus is in His Person, the Son of God by nature, not like Adam, the Son of God by likeness and creation. This puts Him, in St Paul’s words, as the first in rank, “the first-born of all creation”, since, though not first in chronology, He was more excellently God’s Son, not only by His historical accomplishments in holiness and in sanctifying the human race, and in conquering death, but because He was the Word through Whom the Father created the whole universe. The first-born is the one in whom the whole race is formed and defined, Who is the True Image of God, and who receives the Priesthood, the responsibility to protect the race, as well as to intercede for the race.

These are all views of God and Christ as seen from our own, created point of view. To know and talk about God in Himself, and on His own terms, requires a whole preparation of mind to acclimate our thoughts to a different mode of being. Like St Anselm, we must prepare by reminding ourselves of God’s perfections, to put us into that mode of Being. Then we must realize that God is a humble God, not a God, who in the words of St Paul, grasps at being God, that is, lays hold of that Truth with His Person, but rather, allows the objective Truth of His Nature to pass through His Person. Thus, He surrenders Himself in Love to Truth, knowing that the power of Truth is to Love, and this great surrendering is the source of His freedom and happiness, and is the achievement of His Holiness, and is His Glory. With this as the orientation of His Person to His Nature, He is free to know Himself in Love and in Truth. In God, knowing Himself in Truth is the Second Person, and God knowing Himself in Love, or loving Himself, is the Third Person. God pours His whole Self into the Knowing, and the Loving, and thus the Persons all partake of His Necessary Life and eternity. He knows Himself thoroughly, to be all Truthful, and admirable, and all perfect, and totally Lovable.

I hope this makes some sense, although I am sure it is overkill. On the other hand, much more could be said and explained. I hope I lost you, at least a little, or else, what’s the fun in talking about the Trinity? God bless.
 
Mike700 said:
Here is what I believe God revealed to me about Himself.

We should always be suspicious when we think God has revealed something to us personally that He has neglected to reveal to anyone else in the past. 2 Peter 1:20 warns individuals, John 14:26 is spoken to the Apostles.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. That is Jesus referring to Himself in the beginning. Jesus is the Word of God.Jesus is the creator because He is the Word. God spoke and the world came into being. God said “Let there be” and creation happened. That was Jesus.
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Any idea if he means the Early Church fathers, or does he mean some current protestant church that calls itself Apostolic?
I’ve brought up Mat 28:19 and 2Cor 13:14. I feel like I’m getting in a little over my head. Again, any advice on how to proceed or respond would be appreciated. Thanks.
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I think I’d resort to saying “I’m going with the Council of Ephesus on this one” . . . but that probably doesn’t satisfy either of you. But it might be worth pointing out to your friend that his “new revelation” is actually composed of several bits and pieces of ancient heresies that did not stand up under the scrutiny of the Early Church (and in the case of Gnosticism, was actually condemned by St. John in scripture).

What church/denomination DOES he use to describe himself, I wonder - or is he founding something “new”?
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Well, I would give an analogy that three can exist in one by talking about a point in time in which past, present and future can all exist. Or alternatively, you can point to a certain tip and say that on that tip exists three different dimensions and yet it is one point.

Ravi Zacharias makes the point that one of the greatest pursuits in Philosophy has been the pursuit for finding the 5th essence (the essence that unites all other essences). hence, philosophers have always been looking for unity and diversity. In fact, the name University comes from that same pursuit. He concludes that this pursuit is found only in the trinity where there is unity and diversity. If you would like to hear his explanation himself check out this video on the law of non contradition and the trinity. its awesome: youtube.com/watch?v=kreSbagj_RM

Some may say that hinduism has a similar concept. But in hinduism there it is not so much diversity as it is a false sense of diversity since there is only brahman. Whereas, in the trinity, each member of the trinity is real and unique and yet also united as one God.
 
NHInsider said:
What church/denomination DOES he use to describe himself, I wonder - or is he founding something “new”?
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I received this link in a previous email. His religion is certainly of the Penecostal nature. He just keeps referring to the “Apostolic” demonination.

His quote is:

Here is a link describing what the Apostolic denomination believes. This is very similar to the United Penecostals and possibly The Church of God. (Holy Rollers all of them).

altupc.com/altupc/articles/apostdoc.htm
 
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same [Word] was in the beginning with God” (John 1:1-2).

Commenting on this text, Dr. William Newton Clarke, in his “Outline of Christian Theology” said: “There is no Trinity in this; but there is a distinction in the Godhead, a duality in God. This distinction is used as basis for the idea of an only-begotten Son, and as key to the possibility of an incarnation.”

If one does not have a preconceived idea of a Trinity in the Godhead, that is exactly what he will see when reading the text.

Continue, verse 3: “All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.”

Who made all things? The One called the Word, of course. This truth is further confirmed in the succeeding verses.

Verse 4: “In him was life; and the life was the light of men.” Who was this life that was the light of men and who made all things? Verse 6 to 7 tells us: “There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light…” But then we are told, “He [John] was not that Light…” Who then was this Light who made all things? Verses 10 to 11 says, “He [this Light] was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”

The Creator of all things was the One who came into this world and was not received by His own people. Only one person fits that description – Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus was the Word who was in the beginning with God and who Himself was God. He came into the world to become a human being just like one of us: “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…” (verse 14).

There is no doubt who the Creator was. The One who said, “Let there be light” was no other than the Word who became flesh called Jesus Christ, “in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature” (Col. 1:14-15). “For by him [Jesus Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible… ” (v. 16).

The God who dealt with the Israelites in the OT was also the Word, Jesus Christ: “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ” (I Cor. 10:1-4).

Jesus revealed this truth to the Jews when He declared to them: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). This was the same name God gave Moses to tell the children of Israel who He was: “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hast sent me unto you” (Exo. 3:14).

Jesus was the Creator and the God who dealt with the ancient Israelites. But who was Melchizedek, king of Salem? Hebrews 7:3 tells us that Melchizedek was “without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.” With such attributes, Melchizedek could not be a human being. Melchizedek is no other than Jesus Christ Himself. Notice, He was later “made like unto the Son of God.” He was also “the priest of the most high God” (Gen. 14:18). Since there could not exist two great High Priests of God in Christ’s day, this clearly shows that Christ existed as the High Priest of the Father in OT times.
 
Mike700 said:
. Jesus is now seated at theright hand of the Father. there are now two beings in heavens Throne Room. The Spirit is on earth with in Spirit filled believers.

Mat 28:19 and 2Cor 13:14. I feel like I’m getting in a little over my head. Again, any advice on how to proceed or respond would be appreciated. Thanks.
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You explained it beautifully, Jesus is God and God is Jesus. Jesus/God sent God/Jesus to earth as an angel to lead the Israelites, Jesus was on earth and also in heaven because Jesus is God. Thus God was sent to earth as Jesus by Jesus/God to lead the Isrealites.

When God died and was ressurected in the form of Jesus by Jesus/God he then returned to God. From that moment on God remained 2 beings (but one person) one being Jesus/God and the other being God/Jesus. The third person in the holy trinity (the holy Ghost) never returned to heaven (after being sent by Jesus - who is God) but remains inside each of us. Thus we have God in heaven separate but united with himself Jesus/God at his right hand and God on earth filling the disciples but really being Jesus.
 
Mike700 said:
I received this link in a previous email. His religion is certainly of the Penecostal nature. He just keeps referring to the “Apostolic” demonination.

His quote is:

Here is a link describing what the Apostolic denomination believes. This is very similar to the United Penecostals and possibly The Church of God. (Holy Rollers all of them).

altupc.com/altupc/articles/apostdoc.htm
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Sabellianism
 
The only person accounted for who received the hidden mystery of the Holy Trinity is Sr Lucia of Fatima and she was not allowed to reveal it to anyone not even her superior.

The best and simple way to understand the Holy Trinity is how St Patrick of Ireland said it best.

Patrick would hold up a shamrock and challenge his hearers, “Is it one leaf or three?” “It is both one leaf and three,” was their reply. “And so it is with God,” he would conclude.

http://www.communitymx.com/content/source/8711A/shamrock.jpg
 
If you go to the EWTN website and click on the Libraries and then on audio Library You can put in a search under EWTN Series for “The Mystery of the Trinity”, a 13 part series by Fr. Groschel. You can download it. It is worth the effort and time if you want to study the Trinity. There is a DVD version for sale, also, which is what I watched. I find it easier to grasp concepts when someone is teaching them, rather than just reading about them. This was very helpful to me, although we will never fully grasp this Mystery.
 
Cashue said:
When God died and was ressurected in the form of Jesus by Jesus/God he then returned to God. From that moment on God remained 2 beings (but one person) one being Jesus/God and the other being God/Jesus. The third person in the holy trinity (the holy Ghost) never returned to heaven (after being sent by Jesus - who is God) but remains inside each of us. Thus we have God in heaven separate but united with himself Jesus/God at his right hand and God on earth filling the disciples but really being Jesus.
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Just in case anyone is confused, this is NOT Catholic (or even Christian) doctrine.🤷
 
=Mike700;5715416]I am in a discussion of the Trinity with a dear friend and would like some advice on how to proceed from the statement in the last email I received. Here is the statement:
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*Here is what I believe God revealed to me about Himself. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. That is Jesus referring to Himself in the beginning. Jesus is the Word of God.Jesus is the creator because He is the Word. God spoke and the world came into being. God said “Let there be” and creation happened. That was Jesus.

in the Old Testament wherever The Angel of the Lord appeared, I believe it was pre-incarnate Jesus. Wherever god manifested Himself to people (except the Glory Cloud), I believe it was Jesus. There is reference in the Old Testament to someone named melchizadech, (sp), New Testament eferences led me to believe melchizidek, (lol sp), was Jesus. God is Spirit.*
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First of all please look at [Mt. 3:13-----] "13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” Then he consented. And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened * and he [JESUS / Son of God] saw the Spirit of God* descending like a dove [The Holy Spirit of God], and alighting on him; and lo, a *voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, * [God The Father] with whom I am well pleased.” All Three persons of the Blessed Trinty at One Time in One Place as One God and Three Persons, co equal, co -eternal!
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Gen. Chapter 14: 17 "After his return from the defeat of Ched-or-laomer and the kings who were with him,* the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley). And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was priest of God Most High***. And he blessed him and said, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, maker of heaven and earth;and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!” (Picture) And Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
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The connection between the High Priest and King od Salem [a historical person] is the fact that he offered as a Priest, “bread and wine.” Jesus the New High Priest: [Heb. 5: …] * In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, **being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. *** Jesus Himself becomes the sacrifical offering in the forms of Bread and Wine. That is the connection between jesus and the King of Salem. Also the fact that Jesus too is a King, of the Kingdom of heaven. [Mt. 16:19].
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Perhaps suggest your friend learn the truth before trying to Pontificate it.
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Love and prayers, and thanks for asking!👍
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NHInsider said:
Just in case anyone is confused, this is NOT Catholic (or even Christian) doctrine.🤷
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You got that right. Isn’t this the heresy called Dualism, or at least a form of it? Not sure what you call it, but it most certainly is heresy.
 
“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy [Spirit] shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy [Spirit], it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come” (Mat. 12:31-32).

Why is only the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit an unforgivable sin when the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are supposed to be co-equal and all alike according to the Trinitarian doctrine?
 
=Mailman;5736453]“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy [Spirit] shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy [Spirit], it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come” (Mat. 12:31-32).
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Why is only the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit an unforgivable sin when the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are supposed to be co-equal and all alike according to the Trinitarian doctrine?
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GREAT question:thumbsup:

The awnswer id first as you indicate that all three person of the Trinity are “co equal and co -eternal.”

The reference is specifically “God”. And the reason the Holy Spirit is selected to bring home the point, is that the Holy Spirit is the Source of Grace, Wisdom, Understanding. All enlightenment is through the Holy Spirit. Saqlvation flows from The Father, to the Son, through the Holy Spirit. Deny one = denial of all!

So the teaching is a bit broader than it seems on the surface. It’s denial of the Grace to know God, denial of the Grace to properly understand God Holy Inspired Writ, and denial of grace to accept His one true Church. All of these hold the potentail for damnation.

Love and prayers,
 
Mailman said:
“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy [Spirit] shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy [Spirit], it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come” (Mat. 12:31-32).

Why is only the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit an unforgivable sin when the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are supposed to be co-equal and all alike according to the Trinitarian doctrine?
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The sin against the Holy Spirit is saying the work of God is not the work of God. It is saying that the work of God is an evil. That is the final question asked of us, and we must all answer it. Here Christ is distinguishing between the mission of the Holy Spirit to sanctify all men, which extends throughout history, and the work of Christ as the Son of Man. As Man, Christ is subject to the laws of nature and of human history, the same as all men, and it is in accepting this, and the death that goes with it, that He saves us, and repairs the damage done by Adam, while raising us to the higher road to heaven, and union forever with God. In His human role as Savior, Christ is subject to, is part of the mission of the Holy Spirit, to sow the seeds of the Love of God in our souls, and the power of His Grace. Christ had to perfect His Humanity in order to complete His mission, the same as the rest of us, and He broke the logjam of grace from entering our souls, with the perfect innocence of His suffering, and manifesting the Father’s Love for us. In the power of the Holy Spirit, He went forth and sanctified Himself, in His Humanity, for our sake. Having such zeal in Himself to complete the Plan of the Father, and to give witness to the Truth of His Perfect Love, He will not allow us to be indifferent to that work of God’s Spirit to bring the grace of His Life into us forever. Rather, He will vomit us out of His mouth, if we should not value God’s Work and Plan for His world, of which we are the center.
 
PJM said:
GREAT question:thumbsup:

The awnswer id first as you indicate that all three person of the Trinity are “co equal and co -eternal.”

The reference is specifically “God”. And the reason the Holy Spirit is selected to bring home the point, is that the Holy Spirit is the Source of Grace, Wisdom, Understanding. All enlightenment is through the Holy Spirit. Saqlvation flows from The Father, to the Son, through the Holy Spirit. Deny one = denial of all!

So the teaching is a bit broader than it seems on the surface. It’s denial of the Grace to know God, denial of the Grace to properly understand God Holy Inspired Writ, and denial of grace to accept His one true Church. All of these hold the potentail for damnation.

Love and prayers,
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I don’t think “Deny one = denial of all” will apply in this case. Why? Because the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are supposed to be three DISTINCT persons in the Godhead (The Trinitarian doctrine). Jesus’ statement is clear and specific. On the one hand it says: “Whosoever speaketh against the Son, it shall be forgiven him.” On the other, this: “But whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him.”

Clearly, we can blaspheme the Son but not the Holy Spirit. If the two are co-equal persons, then what applies to one must equally apply to the other.

Now, there’s another difficulty with the concept of God being a Trinity of three DISTINCT [and co-equal] persons. The angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and said: “Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit” (Mat. 1:20).

If the third person of the Trinity [God the Holy Spirit] was responsible for Mary’s conception, why is Jesus “the only begotten of the Father”? “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth” (Jn 1:14).

And here’s another on the concept of co-equality in a Trinity. Jesus said: “…I go unto the Father: For my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). If we rephrase Jesus’ statement [but without changing the thought], Jesus could well have said, “God the Father is greater than God the son, we are not co-equal.”
 
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