Trinity

[Benadam]

Please read the Catholic Creed below carefully.

Ambrose, you are seeing contradiction where it doesn’t exist. You should read what I wrote more carefully and note that the distinctions between the three divine persons ie: that the ‘Father’ is not generated as is the ‘Son’ and neither are spirated as is the Spirit. In these distinctions there is something of a hiearchy. Don’t get me wrong I understand the absolute simplicity of God and that these distinctions exist only for those persons who can claim to ‘have always been’.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Ambrose, you are seeing contradiction where it doesn’t exist. You should read what I wrote more carefully and note that the distinctions between the three divine persons ie: that the ‘Father’ is not generated as is the ‘Son’ and neither are spirated as is the Spirit. In these distinctions there is something of a hiearchy. Don’t get me wrong I understand the absolute simplicity of God and that these distinctions exist only for those persons who can claim to ‘have always been’.

There is no hierarchy, nor is there “something of a hierarchy.” That is why I enlarged that line particularly for you in the Athanasian Creed.

Your statement:

Benadam:

The Father is greater because He generates the Son and both are greater than the Spirit in that the Spirit proceeds from them.

Is very wrong, and has no orthodox interpretation.

Each Person of the Blessed Trinity is of the One God. The distinctions you think make hierarchy do nothing of the kind, but merely represent the individuality of the Person. It is not meant to convey any sort of idea of hierarchy or difference in rank, or any other similar degree of hierarchy.

If you read the Creed carefully, you will see that Jesus Christ, as man is indeed ranked below the Father, but as the Second Person of The Blessed Trinity, in His Divinity, he is equally God in all ways with the Father, and not ranked below the father, even in an infinitely small measure. Your idea of hierarchy is inextricably linked to conflating the Persons with God, thereby making three gods. Please reread more carefully the Athanasian Creed.

 

[PJM]

There is no hierarchy, nor is there “something of a hierarchy.” That is why I enlarged that line particularly for you in the Athanasian Creed.

Your statement:

Is very wrong, and has no orthodox interpretation.

Each Person of the Blessed Trinity is of the One God. The distinctions you think make hierarchy do nothing of the kind, but merely represent the individuality of the Person. It is not meant to convey any sort of idea of hierarchy or difference in rank, or any other similar degree of hierarchy.

If you read the Creed carefully, you will see that Jesus Christ, as man is indeed ranked below the Father, but as the Second Person of The Blessed Trinity, in His Divinity, he is equally God in all ways with the Father, and not ranked below the father, even in an infinitely small measure. Your idea of hierarchy is inextricably linked to conflating the Persons with God, thereby making three gods. Please reread more carefully the Athanasian Creed.

Mk. 2: 27 " And he said to them, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; "

---

Similar to this lesson about God, The Blessed trinity is “made for man” not man for the Blessed Trinity.

The Blessed Trinity is how God chooses to show Himself to us;* in part to impress upon us that Divine Mystery that we know as “our God” is beyond humand comprehension, while at the same time allowing us to know God with an intimacy of knowledge and relationship heretofore unknown and unexperienced by Gods Created humanity.

Perhaps this is best expressed in the following teaching:**

Isaiah 55: 8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

We can seek God and be in relationship with God; but God’s Perfect everything good, will always puzzle us, and yet it is within that amazing lack of understanding that we are able to know, love and serve The Almighty God, on very human terms.

Love and prayers,

 

[Benadam]

There is no hierarchy, nor is there “something of a hierarchy.” That is why I enlarged that line particularly for you in the Athanasian Creed.

 

[scameter18]

Well, in my opinion, Jesus said the Father was greater than He because the Church teaches that while Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both God, the Father is the ultimate “head” of the Godhead Trinity. For example, Christ said that even He doesn’t know when the Father will renew the Earth, send Jesus back, resurrect the dead, etc. on the Last Day. Which doesn’t mean that Christ and the Spirit are lacking, because they are both God, and God as a whole is not lacking in any way. But, in answering your second question about duties, the individual persons of the Trinity are different, though the same God essence. Their difference comes in their specific attributes, which are necessary for God to be fully and perfectly God, but could not properly exist in only one person. For example, if God were not Father and Son, God would not have a relationship within Himself; He would be alone. But, in order to be even more perfect than God would be if He were alone, He consists of a Father and a Son, who while both God, form a familiar relationship, and their love is expressed as the Holy Spirit. If God were just God, as in Islam and some other monotheisms, He would not be as perfect as the Trinitarian God.

Always remember, in Trinitarianism, God is an essence, composed of three persons. In polytheism, deities are individual persons called gods, each being a god. But in Trinitarianism, being God is being a specific sort of being, which is a Divine being. The God-essence is a set of characteristics that makes something perfectly and completely divine, and there are three individual persons that are God: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Just as Bob, Joe and Sarah would all three be human, the Trinity are all three God. Not distinct essences or souls from one another; not individual gods. Just God, in three persons.

 

[aball1035]

Well, in my opinion, Jesus said the Father was greater than He because the Church teaches that while Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both God, the Father is the ultimate “head” of the Godhead Trinity. For example, Christ said that even He doesn’t know when the Father will renew the Earth, send Jesus back, resurrect the dead, etc. on the Last Day. Which doesn’t mean that Christ and the Spirit are lacking, because they are both God, and God as a whole is not lacking in any way. But, in answering your second question about duties, the individual persons of the Trinity are different, though the same God essence. Their difference comes in their specific attributes, which are necessary for God to be fully and perfectly God, but could not properly exist in only one person. For example, if God were not Father and Son, God would not have a relationship within Himself; He would be alone. But, in order to be even more perfect than God would be if He were alone, He consists of a Father and a Son, who while both God, form a familiar relationship, and their love is expressed as the Holy Spirit. If God were just God, as in Islam and some other monotheisms, He would not be as perfect as the Trinitarian God.

Always remember, in Trinitarianism, God is an essence, composed of three persons. In polytheism, deities are individual persons called gods, each being a god. But in Trinitarianism, being God is being a specific sort of being, which is a Divine being. The God-essence is a set of characteristics that makes something perfectly and completely divine, and there are three individual persons that are God: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Just as Bob, Joe and Sarah would all three be human, the Trinity are all three God. Not distinct essences or souls from one another; not individual gods. Just God, in three persons.

One side question-why are there 3 and just 2 or 4 or even 10 persons in God? What’s the meaning of 3?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

scameter18:

Well, in my opinion, Jesus said the Father was greater than He because the Church teaches that while Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both God, the Father is the ultimate “head” of the Godhead Trinity.

When it comes to the Catholic Doctrine of the Holy Trinity, there is not really much room for opinion. The Athanasian creed is a good pithy exposition of the Catholic belief regarding the Trinity. Measure your opinions against it, and where they differ, abandon the false beliefs. It is a road that will only lead to more errors. Your statement above does not square at all with the Athanasian Creed and should be abandoned. You will see that Jesus Christ as man is less than the Father, but only as man. That is why the Gospels have Jesus saying that the Father is greater. But as the Divine Only Begotten Son of the Father, the Word, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, he is not less than the Father.

I don’t know why there is so much discussion on this point, the Creed could not possibly be stated in more clear, lucid terms than it is. In the creed it says unequivocally that none of the persons is greater than the other, and none of the persons is “before” another. They are all ONE TRIUNE GOD.

I hope you especially, being in RCIA, will study the Athanasian Creed closely.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Benadam:

A son is bound to his father as one who is a generation of the other.

You are still wrong Benadam. The Son, meaning the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity, the Word, The Only Begotten, is not “generated” nor does he have a beginning, nor does the Father come before the Son. Please try to get those ideas out of your head. The Son is the Only-Begotten from all eternity. He always was, just as the Father always was. They (along with the Holy Spirit) are co-eternal and only one Being-- the ONE God. The familial metaphor falls short of describing the Holy Trinity in that all families are created beings. God is uncreated and eternal and infinite. There is no practical way, except perhaps poetically to use this analogy. But the Son of God in his divinity is NOT like a created son with respect to His relationship to the Father. The created father comes first and gives life to the son. (in a manner of speaking.) But God, the Only-Begotten is NOT like this. He was WITH the Father FROM ALL ETERNITY. They are co-eternal. The Son is NOT less than the FAther in any way you care to look at it. There is NO Hierarchy. Period…

 

[aball1035]

You are still wrong Benadam. The Son, meaning the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity, the Word, The Only Begotten, is not “generated” nor does he have a beginning, nor does the Father come before the Son. Please try to get those ideas out of your head. The Son is the Only-Begotten from all eternity. He always was, just as the Father always was. They (along with the Holy Spirit) are co-eternal and only one Being-- the ONE God. The familial metaphor falls short of describing the Holy Trinity in that all families are created beings. God is uncreated and eternal and infinite. There is no practical way, except perhaps poetically to use this analogy. But the Son of God in his divinity is NOT like a created son with respect to His relationship to the Father. The created father comes first and gives life to the son. (in a manner of speaking.) But God, the Only-Begotten is NOT like this. He was WITH the Father FROM ALL ETERNITY. They are co-eternal. The Son is NOT less than the FAther in any way you care to look at it. There is NO Hierarchy. Period…

what does begotten mean or imply?

 

[aball1035]

You are still wrong Benadam. The Son, meaning the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity, the Word, The Only Begotten, is not “generated” nor does he have a beginning, nor does the Father come before the Son. Please try to get those ideas out of your head. The Son is the Only-Begotten from all eternity. He always was, just as the Father always was. They (along with the Holy Spirit) are co-eternal and only one Being-- the ONE God. The familial metaphor falls short of describing the Holy Trinity in that all families are created beings. God is uncreated and eternal and infinite. There is no practical way, except perhaps poetically to use this analogy. But the Son of God in his divinity is NOT like a created son with respect to His relationship to the Father. The created father comes first and gives life to the son. (in a manner of speaking.) But God, the Only-Begotten is NOT like this. He was WITH the Father FROM ALL ETERNITY. They are co-eternal. The Son is NOT less than the FAther in any way you care to look at it. There is NO Hierarchy. Period…

What do the words ‘begotten’ and ‘preceded’ mean or imply?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

What do the words ‘begotten’ and ‘preceded’ mean or imply?

I’m only going to say that the Athanasian Creed which is quoted in its entirety in post #19 has all that I am going to say any more on this matter.

 

[Benadam]

You are still wrong Benadam. The Son, meaning the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity, the Word, The Only Begotten, is not “generated” nor does he have a beginning, nor does the Father come before the Son. Please try to get those ideas out of your head. The Son is the Only-Begotten from all eternity. He always was, just as the Father always was. They (along with the Holy Spirit) are co-eternal and only one Being-- the ONE God. The familial metaphor falls short of describing the Holy Trinity in that all families are created beings. God is uncreated and eternal and infinite. There is no practical way, except perhaps poetically to use this analogy. But the Son of God in his divinity is NOT like a created son with respect to His relationship to the Father. The created father comes first and gives life to the son. (in a manner of speaking.) But God, the Only-Begotten is NOT like this. He was WITH the Father FROM ALL ETERNITY. They are co-eternal. The Son is NOT less than the FAther in any way you care to look at it. There is NO Hierarchy. Period…

 

[Benadam]

One side question-why are there 3 and just 2 or 4 or even 10 persons in God? What’s the meaning of 3?

insightfull question. In a way the state of ‘being one’ for the trinity can be described as having ‘always been and uncreated’. All persons that exist in that state would be one being. Always ‘being’.The chasm between persons who have a beginning and so created and the uncreated ‘always been’ is such that the unity of the uncreated eternal persons doesn’t allow observation of any distinction whatsoever no matter how many persons were co-eternal one in being always and uncreated.

Having said that I believe that three is significant in the proper ordering of natural human bonds.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Jesus added to His divinity what He did not have before, His humanity. This is how Phil. 2:6-7 puts it: “Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours In Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himsef, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.” His limitations as a human are clearly expressed in Heb. 2:9 wherein we are told that for a little while he was made “lower than the angels.” Angels even ministered to him after His temptation (Matt. 4). On the other hand, this does not mean that the Jesus who came down from heaven ceased to exist.