Trouble forgiving husband's emotional infidelity

[exoflare]

You have to learn to take responsibility for your part in your marriage problems.

How is any of this her fault?

 

[kbachler]

I told the woman, who is married and has several children. I told her in the hope that she would have as little as possible to do with my husband. She knew nothing of his feelings and expressed shock, and yet, she refused to leave the choir because she “did nothing wrong.”

1. I’m surprised that you told the woman if she knew nothing about it. Why are you thrusting your marriage issues on an innocent bystander?
2. I agree with the woman. She did nothing wrong and she enjoys the choir.
3. For your husband to write something like what you described, he either has deep emotional issues and needs counseling (as do both of you) ASAP, OR the woman was aware and there was something going on.

I haven’t read the whole thread as I write this - but I pray that things have been going well for you since this was uncovered.

 

[Irishmom2]

How is any of this her fault?

Marriage is two people, not one. No one is ever totally, completely without flaws. And before anyone jumps all over me, I never said that her husbands emotional infidelity was her fault, so don’t even go there. I said she has to take responsibility for her part in her marriage–meaning taking care of how she feels. If that means getting counseling, or learning how to better herself FOR herself then so be it. Please do not accuse me of something I never said.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

If I were in any group activity, and the director were a married man, and his wife came to me and told me what the OP told this woman, I would be completely creeped out! That is the NORMAL response to what the OP told the other member of the choir. Something is really wrong with someone who can stay in a choir after she’s been told that the director has a secret crush on her and has sworn an oath to marry her. She’s getting some jollies off of that knowledge. Any of us would be horrified at such news! But not this woman. She just goes on singing (How can I keep from singing LOL).



No, it’s not her fault and she is not responsible, but any normal, moral person would get away from such a man. Unless she is married to him…which brings me back to the OP.

Yes, go to counseling yourself, but he may well react to that with anger and threats. He will know and understand that the counselor is undermining his abuse by helping you see through his manipulation. He may want to make an appointment with the counselor - please warn him/her of the likelihood. He will want to tell “his side” of things. The other counselor would surely have been aware of his attempt to manipulate the sessions. If not, that’s a very inexperienced counselor!!

I would seriously consider a separation, for your sake, OP, and the sake of your children. There are people like your husband who do reform once they are brought up short by other people’s boundaries. I’m not saying your husband is one of those, but it might make an impact.

As for forgiveness, you aren’t at that point - you have no distance and he has not repented of his sin. Just take care of yourself and the children. See your spiritual director, see a counselor. Consider a separation. Pray.

I will add you to my prayers.

 

[Thankfulness]

Why do some think he’s not done anything very wrong. It’s adultery. Jesus said: “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Matthew 5:28.

And this man wrote an actual vow with a written desire that his wife be dead so he can marry the other woman. There’s more that needs happen than forgiveness, as this woman is living with a man who wants her dead. If anything it’s worse than actual adultery, because he has whole-heartedly, in explicit writing, given his heart and soul to another woman. Of course she’s still hurting. And he continues to be horrible to her. She is living without love every day. How’s that something to be just ‘got over’!
Where has he truly repented and shown her love? The opposite seems the case. He expects her to get over it even though he show no signs of love or repentance. That’s insult to injury, isn’t it.

You need to forgive your husband regardless of whether he’s worthy or not, and the fact he doesn’t repent is awful, but you need to forgive for your own sake so you can be free in spirit. Jesus said, pray for your enemies, and sometimes enemies are in ones own house. So even if it doesn’t feel like forgiveness, pray a lot for him, and for the salvation of his soul.

You may not be able to get your husband to counselling, though what you have read that counselling doesn’t help hasn’t been tested by you and your husband,
still, you need counselling yourself to learn some coping and positive skills to handle these things better. You need to find a way to grow in strength yourself, and to find peace and healing and dignity in yourself. You can’t let someone drag you down from the precious daughter of God that you are. He will face God alone. You will face God alone and you need to do so knowing you are loved of God and a precious person God created because He wanted you to be. Who knows whether, if you cope better, if you feel good about the valuable person God says you are, and that becomes evident, then because you glow form your own grace from God, you husband might even eventually catch on he’s wrong in not valuing you more.

We sometimes get what we project. If we’re miserable or self-doubting, that’s how people value us sometimes. If we glow the beauty of God’s love and ourselves as God’s loved child, others sometimes can’t help responding to that. But sometimes we need others’ help to live that way, and maybe you do?

 

[Nanny_PK]

the rules are very clear and the choir director stepped over the line, whether he is paid or a volunteer

My only question is if the husband did nothing to act on his thoughts, then I’m not sure a “workplace” could do anything to him – at least not in the secular world. As I stated, things are different in a private, religious setting so the Church might be well within their rights to either sanction him or fire him/release him from his volunteer position.

 

[Debora123]

Hi. I need advice on forgiving my husband’s emotional betrayal. My husband directs a choir at our parish. I sing in the choir, as does another woman who is very vivacious and attractive. I was aware for some time that my husband found her attractive. A couple of years ago, I discovered that my husband had written a vow, in which he offered all his daily prayers and sufferings for this woman, Masses, etc. as well as a vow to marry her if possible after my death. (I am 50 years old and NOT dying). There was a lot more to the vow, but basically he had given his whole heart to this woman, and couched it all in spiritual terms. I also discovered that he kept a photo of her on his computer and PDA.

I told the woman, who is married and has several children. I told her in the hope that she would have as little as possible to do with my husband. She knew nothing of his feelings and expressed shock, and yet, she refused to leave the choir because she “did nothing wrong.” My husband has apologized, but has done little to repair the enormous damage this has done to me and to our marriage. He still directs the choir, and if anything, has become a worse husband over the past couple of years rather than a better one. He is emotionally abusive, often having tirades of anger, belittling or ridiculing me. Instead of trying to regain my trust, he has become more secretive and more individualistic, so that at times he seems like more of a housemate than a husband. My self esteem has plummeted. I have aged prematurely and gained weight because of my emotional distress. Our marriage had problems before that vow, but I had not done anything to deserve this. I was unhappy too, but would never do something like this.

Sometimes he has a rare moment of insight and remorse. Most often, he thinks I should just be “over it.” He claims it is “over” and that he feels nothing for her now, but I have no reason to believe him because he has broken my trust. He does not understand (or pretends not to understand) why it upsets me to have to see this woman every week, and to have HIM see her every week. It constantly re-opens the wound. I have tried to treat her in a friendly manner, but if our positions were reversed, I would have left the choir rather than be a wedge in someone else’s marriage.

I sometimes think this emotional betrayal is even worse than actual adultery. Because my husband only sees the woman under ideal circumstances-- not in intimate daily home life with all its struggles-- he can idealize her, whereas if they had actually had an affair, maybe she would seem less wonderful after awhile. Not that I wish for it, of course. And although he did not commit actual adultery, that vow showed a far deeper attachment to this woman than any kind of casual fling could ever be.

We have several children, and leaving is not an option. Counseling is also not an option. I read an excellent article on why counseling often does not help if one partner is emotionally abusive, and many of the points fit my husband well. He is very practiced at presenting one persona publicly, and a different one privately. He has sabotaged previous counseling efforts by speaking privately with the counselor before we ever went as a couple, to manipulate the situation. And I know that is anything I said in counseling bothered him, I would suffer for it later.

I am sorry this is so long. Here is my question: How does one forgive when one has to live with the person who caused the hurt, and when they refuse to face the truth of what they did? My spiritual director told me that if I wish my husband well and not evil, if I pray for him, if I do not seek revenge, and if I WILL to forgive him even though my heart is still broken, then I can be at peace knowing I have forgiven him, even if my feelings have not yet caught up with my will. But because I am still hurting, my husband constantly accuses me of refusing to forgive. I would also like to know: what do others think my husband, or myself, or even the other woman should have done, or should do, in this situation? Thanks for any insights you might have to offer.

This is awful and I am so sorry…

however, I don’t think you should hold it to HER to leave the choir. Why don’t you and your husband leave the choir instead? Maybe even the parish? That seems much more appropriate than expecting her to leave.

 

[Jesus_123]

If I were in any group activity, and the director were a married man, and his wife came to me and told me what the OP told this woman, I would be completely creeped out! ** That is the NORMAL response to what the OP told the other member of the choir**. Something is really wrong with someone who can stay in a choir after she’s been told that the director has a secret crush on her and has sworn an oath to marry her. . . . Any of us would be horrified at such news! But not this woman. No, it’s not her fault and she is not responsible, but any normal, moral person would get away from such a man

+I am so glad you wrote this Juliane . . . thank you . . . you hit the nail right on the head re this other woman’s most inappropriate reaction upon hearing such news from the choir director’s tragically wounded and devastated wife . . . she should have gone to the priest immediately . . . and shared the problem situation with him . . . and immediately resigned from the choir until such time as the situation was corrected for the sake of all concerned through the removal of this parish choir director . . . so as to not continue any contact whatsoever with him . . . His sinful condition and evil imaginings had clearly become known to her . . . it doesn’t matter that she came to be innocently in contact with this evil . . . once she knew about the sinful evil she needed to responsibly distance herself as far away as possible from such a . . . depraved . . . predatory . . . clearly disordered personality . . . instead . . . by staying she willfully began accepting and continues to accept playing with a Satanic fire of evil . . .

. . . all for Jesus+​

 

[braehead]

Your spiritual adviser is correct. Forgiveness has nothing to do with how you feel. It is an act of your own will. Certainly, forgiveness is easier if the person who wronged you is contrite. Even the Lord loves a “broken and a contrite heart” as it speaks to true remorse. Often, it takes a spiritual act to make a transgressor such as your husband realize the error of his ways. You can pray to that end.

I think he made a grave error in this commitment he made, as it betrays the commitment he made to you prior. Any meaningful resolution that will make you feel better must by ‘definition’ involve both of you. There are several ways to do this, but a good start may be to get a good book on the matter such as ‘His Needs, Her Needs’ by Dr. Williard Harley Jr.

I also sense a very effectively deceptive spirit of pride in your husband. He will need to properly repent to the Lord first, for his foolish act, and then apologize to you.
The only thing is, that he may not accept all of this coming from you. He needs to see how much this betrayal displeases the Lord that he is supposed to be serving.

I pray for the best resolution for you both

braehead

 

[TheRealJuliane]

+I am so glad you wrote this Juliane . . . thank you . . . you hit the nail right on the head re this other woman’s most inappropriate reaction upon hearing such news from the choir director’s tragically wounded and devastated wife . . . she should have gone to the priest immediately . . . and shared the problem situation with him . . . and immediately resigned from the choir until such time as the situation was corrected for the sake of all concerned through the removal of this parish choir director . . . so as to not continue any contact whatsoever with him . . . His sinful condition and evil imaginings had clearly become known to her . . . it doesn’t matter that she came to be innocently in contact with this evil . . . once she knew about the sinful evil she needed to responsibly distance herself as far away as possible from such a . . . depraved . . . predatory . . . clearly disordered personality . . . instead . . . by staying she willfully began accepting and continues to accept playing with a Satanic fire of evil . . .

. . . all for Jesus+​

Yes, I feel something is wrong there. I don’t know what it is, but imagine being told that your boss, for example, has crushed on you to the point where he has signed a secret vow to marry you if/when his wife dies. Would you continue to work there??

Or would you be thoroughly creeped out and horrified, and quit immediately to get away from that crazy person? I would pick up my stuff, tell them where to mail my last check, and be out the door before my chair cooled off!

What does it say about someone who isn’t even getting PAID to stay in the choir, but is volunteering?

I hate to say this OP, but are you SURE there is nothing physical between your husband and this woman? Her behavior makes no sense unless she is returning the affection to your husband.

 

[Debora123]

Yes, I feel something is wrong there. I don’t know what it is, but imagine being told that your boss, for example, has crushed on you to the point where he has signed a secret vow to marry you if/when his wife dies. Would you continue to work there??

Or would you be thoroughly creeped out and horrified, and quit immediately to get away from that crazy person? I would pick up my stuff, tell them where to mail my last check, and be out the door before my chair cooled off!

What does it say about someone who isn’t even getting PAID to stay in the choir, but is volunteering?

Honestly, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the lady staying in the choir.

The man has a very strong secret crush on her, and it’s creepy and inappropriate, but since when has this made someone a psychopath?? If I found out my boss had a huge secret crush on me, I’d feel a bit uncomfortable, but heck, I wouldn’t leave or be afraid of him or anything… especially if he hadn’t acted on his crush towards me at all (hence it being a “secret” crush).

She likes singing in the choir, a married man in that choir has a crush on her but hasn’t acted on it, hasn’t put the moves on her at all in any way, so why on earth should she leave??

I don’t think the fact that she didn’t leave “says anything” about her, and after all, we don’t even know her. Why make assumptions? Best to focus on the husband and on the marriage, not on an innocent bistandard who wants to live her life and be a part of her parish choir.

 

[Leegal]

Whatever has happened in the past, whether he’s still fantasizing about this woman, whether or not she gained weight and is depressed, whether or not she has forgiven him, whether she should have spoken to the woman or to her priest – all in the past. (I would have told the priest/pastor, but then she’d still be where she is now). If you read, this happened sometime ago, and he punishes her for his sin.

My concern is that he’s ratcheting up his abusiveness in a home with children. It’s like he’s imposing his sin and wrongdoing and placing in square in her park. There’s no reason to take abuse – regardless of whether or not she can or will forgive him.

The poster who suggested that he’s teaching his sons, if any, the wrong message about treatment of a wife and marriage is absolutely correct. He’s teaching his daughters, if any, the wrong message on what marriage is about and how to value themselves too when considering a mate for life. He’s a poor example.

How he treats his wife on a daily basis is how or if she can forgive him. His verbal abuse inhibits real communication and makes forgiveness difficult, if not impossible.

It’s like a man who is nasty to his wife when he’s home, unhelpful, non-communicative, interacts little with his children, does not act like a partner and then wonders why is wife is not in the mood for sex when bedtime comes, like marriage needs no nuturing and requires no work on the part of the partners.

She can only take steps in her own interest since the abuses covers at least the last two years, if not longer. To find that my husband had made a spiritual vow to another woman (in the event I were to die, no less), and then verbally abused me for discovering it, would be a “no brainer.” Marriage is a partnership – not a prison.

I would definately change parish registration and my Church attendance to another parish. He can only dish out what you are willing to accept. Take back your power. Leave the parish and take a break telling him that you don’t care for the boundaries that he has set up, on his terms, and you need time away – taking the children – to redefine those boundaries.

I’m not saying leave him – but take time apart so he can reflect on his behavior, if possible. Take the children on a weeklong retreat. Do not allow him access to your personal counselor – and seek counseling on your own. Show him that you are willing to do what is necessary to save the marriage – but not to the detriment of your own psychological well-being and to the harm to the children.

 

[Thankfulness]

I agree about the harm being done to the children. The consideration of what the children are learning and will take from yours and your husband’s witness, is important. This is their one shot at learning from their parents how to be a husband, how to be a wife. I don’t know how you reacted to your husband’s infidelity, how poor and destructive the communication was on both sides, leaving damage, or not. But it can’t go on without being radically addressed.

You put it on the woman’s conscience that she was causing lustful, adulterous thoughts, (if she didn’t already know) but she hasn’t removed the temptation. She rates singing above the good of souls. That shouldn’t be a threat to your self-esteem as it’s not admirable. And if I were the other woman, I’d leave the choir. I left a parish because a married man told me he felt very attracted to me and didn’t trust himself with me. He has absolutely no right to say that to me, and I had no intention to be an occasion of sin to anyone. We were both daily Mass goers so I moved to another parish. It’s less convenient, but I’m not going to sit in Mass with someone else in the church having adulterous thoughts about me.

You are closing doors, locking them on yourself, for instance, in saying you won’t seek counselling because your husband is more or less ‘street angel, home devil’, and the fact is, how many men or women are nicer outside their homes and families than in them. That doesn’t mean that they’re categorically immune to counselling, though many men will resist it. A large number are less agreeable at home than with others outside the home, I’d think. That isn’t necessarily a block to counselling.

Praying for you, your husband and your children, and for this other woman.

Re-reading your post, your husband did apologize, but I guess you found it too hard to handle. I guess he resents your reaction and ongoing resentment. Please God you will both find God’s way to deal with this before any more harm is done.
May God heal you both.

 

[faithfully]

Re-reading your post, your husband did apologize, but I guess you found it too hard to handle. I guess he resents your reaction and ongoing resentment. Please God you will both find God’s way to deal with this before any more harm is done.
May God heal you both.

Sadly, for any sin we commit, there are natural consequences. We don’t get to be upset when we injure a person and they don’t snap to forgive and forget. When we deeply wound a person, if we’re truly sorry, we let the wound heal. We do not rip off scabs, and we do not pour salt in it. We do not get to decide the course of healing.

If he didn’t want to resent the pain his wife shows then he should have not caused it. The end.

 

[Lonely_guy]

Honestly, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the lady staying in the choir.

The man has a very strong secret crush on her, and it’s creepy and inappropriate, but since when has this made someone a psychopath?? If I found out my boss had a huge secret crush on me, I’d feel a bit uncomfortable, but heck, I wouldn’t leave or be afraid of him or anything… especially if he hadn’t acted on his crush towards me at all (hence it being a “secret” crush).

She likes singing in the choir, a married man in that choir has a crush on her but hasn’t acted on it, hasn’t put the moves on her at all in any way, so why on earth should she leave??

I don’t think the fact that she didn’t leave “says anything” about her, and after all, we don’t even know her. Why make assumptions? Best to focus on the husband and on the marriage, not on an innocent bistandard who wants to live her life and be a part of her parish choir.

That was what I did try to explain. I just did it with to may words and I guess it was confusing.

 

[1inICXC]

Honestly, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the lady staying in the choir.

The man has a very strong secret crush on her, and it’s creepy and inappropriate, but since when has this made someone a psychopath?? If I found out my boss had a huge secret crush on me, I’d feel a bit uncomfortable, but heck, I wouldn’t leave or be afraid of him or anything… especially if he hadn’t acted on his crush towards me at all (hence it being a “secret” crush).

She likes singing in the choir, a married man in that choir has a crush on her but hasn’t acted on it, hasn’t put the moves on her at all in any way, so why on earth should she leave??

I don’t think the fact that she didn’t leave “says anything” about her, and after all, we don’t even know her. Why make assumptions? Best to focus on the husband and on the marriage, not on an innocent bistandard who wants to live her life and be a part of her parish choir.

Deborah, com’on, you do see a difference between a boss having a secret crush,- as a young woman, I have been in this situation more than once-, and finding out that he’s writing oaths and pledging his heart and soul to you.

I wouldn’t / didn’t quit over the former but i’d surely be doing just as Julianne said over the latter. He may not be a psychopath but he is certainly very deranged! I wouldn’t do it just for me either, but for the poor, distressed wife as well!

We ARE our brother’s keeper!

 

[faithfully]

You know,

OP describes this other woman as lively and such. I’m betting she’s rather pretty. It’s possible she sees men looking at her, and she’s had to learn that she can’t stop them. She doesn’t need to hide in a closet or give up what she loves, 'cause some guy has a crush on her, and now his wife is upset. This is the problem of the husband. Not the “other woman”.

We’re talking about a woman who is singing in her church choir. She is in a place showing her love and rejoice for God. I sort of doubt she’s dressed to entice. It’s not like there’s another choir for their church, I’m sure. I’m sure she has friends on this choir. Many of us know just how hard it is to have friends that have the same belief. Think about what some of you think she should give up, 'cause some guy is a creep.

It’s also possible the OP did not tell her of the written love vow. But perhaps just the crush??? It’s possible she does know, but knows this man in a way we don’t that for whatever reason the “creep” factor is not there. Again, she does not owe their marriage. THEY do. The wife could leave if she wanted to. Granted I’m sure she’s there to keep an eye on things. Again, she’s not trusting HER HUSBAND.

It’s unfair to lay ANY blame on the other woman. And I’ll bet you, she’s not the ONLY infatuation this man has had. Just the only one he was stupid enough to put into writing. Just how many women really need to leave before this man is held 100% responsible for his behavior. She is not the wedge. HE IS!

But I’ll tell you. If it were me. I would have told the wife, I’m very sorry you are going through this. I can assure you, I have no interest in your husband, I love my own husband very much and only have eyes for him.

I won’t be quitting the choir, as it will not solve your marriage problems.

IF, for some reason I felt a creep factor, I would talk to the husband in his wife’s and perhaps even my husbands presence. I would say, either you resign this position, or I will go to the church and ask you to be removed.

If it’s volunteer, he’d be asked to leave I’m sure.

If it’s paid, this would turn into a sexual harassament issue rather quickly.

 

[onjac]

I’m very sorry to hear about this!! This is awful. I also agree with what the other posters have said here. I hope you can find a priest or a counselor to talk about this. I’ll be praying for you.

Stay strong!!

 

[Debora123]

Deborah, com’on, you do see a difference between a boss having a secret crush,- as a young woman, I have been in this situation more than once-, and finding out that he’s writing oaths and pledging his heart and soul to you.

I wouldn’t / didn’t quit over the former but i’d surely be doing just as Julianne said over the latter. He may not be a psychopath but he is certainly very deranged! I wouldn’t do it just for me either, but for the poor, distressed wife as well!

We ARE our brother’s keeper!

It is a very strong secret crush, but as far as I’d be concerned it’d be a secret crush nonetheless because he had not acted on it towards me in any way.

Sure, it’d be nice if the lady picked up her family, quit the choir, and left her parish. It would be nice of her. Just as it would be nice to give $5 to every homeless person you walk by.

But doing so is in no way her moral obligation, and she wouldn’t be a bad person in the slightest bit if she opted not to let something like that drive her and her family away.

That’s just my opinion, and I if it were me I honestly would not have left.

 

[Debora123]

You know,

OP describes this other woman as lively and such. I’m betting she’s rather pretty. It’s possible she sees men looking at her, and she’s had to learn that she can’t stop them. She doesn’t need to hide in a closet or give up what she loves, 'cause some guy has a crush on her, and now his wife is upset. This is the problem of the husband. Not the “other woman”.

Precisely.