Trouble with being vegetarian and Catholic

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DaveEucharist

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Please please please do not take this as vegetarian/vegan agenda promoting! I am have trouble reconciling Catholicism with me being a vegetarian/vegan (veg*n).

I converted to Catholicism when I was 17 (now 27, man) and have occasionally had problems/been angry at God and the Church over one thing: the eating of animals. I choose to be (at least at at dietary level) vegetarian/near vegan (veg*n= vegetarian and/or vegan). I don’t think it is wrong to use animals for food. I live in a place (urban/northeast/metropolis USA) and time (21th century) in which it is possible for me to live without using things that cause the death of animals.

I don’t even go out of my way to eat chicken eggs or any dairy products. I avoid dairy because of the connection to the veal industry. I avoid eggs because even “Free range” hatcheries kill baby male chickens. If I bake anything I find ways to substitute eggs. My friends and family know me by now so I am never in a position in which they offer me baked good etc made with eggs or any dairy.

It’s easy for me to give it all up because even before age 17 I did not enjoy animal based foods. Even today the sight and smell of meat can make me gag.

I am aware of the the difference between factory farms and “old fashioned” free range/organic/family farms. Fortunately there are still a good handful of kind farmers that don’t raise animals in cruel factory conditions.

This is what the Church states. Coming from the Church, it is coming from God. That I trust:

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
*2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.
*
2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

Am I wrong for being veg*n?? I know many other Catholic that live in a situation in which they could survive without eating animals on a permanent basis. How is it that I am led to avoid eating animals entirely and others not so? I avoid leather and have found high end animal-free shoes. I do not wear wools even though the animals do not die in the shearing process- I avoid it because their meat (mutton, etc) is the byproduct of the wool industry.

I know Christ ate animal flesh. But, perhaps it is because he was human and lived in a time when animals were good sources of protein and plant based sources were not available in His time and location? I don’t know. But I think if he came down to Earth today and was offered an animal based meal vs. a vegn meal, he would choose the vegn. I can’t imagine Christ TODAY if he appeared in a “developed” nation- slaughtering a cow if he had the option to eat a vegn meal. The current Pope isn’t a veg either.

Please please I am not trying to push down a vegn agenda. Am I taking my interpretation of the world “needlessly” from the Catechism too far? Who is right? Why aren’t all members of the Catholic clergy vegn, or at least the ones that can be? Am I wrong? Did God lead me to be veg*n? If me then why not other Catholics that eat burgers, etc?

Genesis 1:28-1:29 states that God gave the first humans plant based foods. The eating of animals was approved by God after the flood. If a veg*n diet is closer to what God originally created, why does he still allow the consumption of animals? It seems like he allows it because the Church does not condemn it for people who don’t need it. I’m so confused!

Please don’t respond with “what will happen to all the food animals if we don’t eat them”. For the most part, they exist because they are bred by humans specifically to be killed and eaten.

Lastly, please don’t think I am in anyway unhealthy. Doctors find no problems with me and I am a medical professional myself. I played football in undergraduate school and am still very active in sports. I also posed occasionally as a muscle model in high school and college (undergraduate school). I am not some skinny hippy type veg*n.
 
No you’re not wrong for being veg*n. There is no Church mandate that all Catholics must eat animal-based products. If you want to avoid them, go for it.

But just because you see things that way, don’t expect everyone else to see it the same way. There is similarly no mandate that we must avoid meat or animal products. So Catholics who choose to eat them are committing no sin.
 
Joe_5859 said:
No you’re not wrong for being veg*n. There is no Church mandate that all Catholics must eat animal-based products. If you want to avoid them, go for it.

But just because you see things that way, don’t expect everyone else to see it the same way. There is similarly no mandate that we must avoid meat or animal products. So Catholics who choose to eat them are committing no sin.
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I realize that choosing to eat animal products is not a sin. But would/does God believe any interpretation of the aforementioned catechism passages is “okay”? It’s too subjective.
 
Hey Dave. Good question!

For a moment I had to think about it… I went back to genesis and was suprised to see that God seemed to ask man to only eats fruits and such and the animals too only were to eat plants.

Before the fall, man was full with Gods life … he was full of sanctifying grace. After the fall…everything changed. Man needed to feed on living animals. He had to take lives to stay alive because now there was something lacking in Man.

We know it’s not against God’s law to take the life of animals for food because of the jewish perscriptions for how to prepare meats for food. As a matter of fact …there are moments when God insisted on man eating meat …example: the passover supper where God insisted on everyone eating lamb.

Another thing I want to point out is the sacrifices required by God at the temple for sin. They killed thousands of animals yearly at the temple as sin and thank offerings to God…directed by God Himself. There’s a scripture passage that points out that these sacrifices didn’t really take away sin…so does that mean the people were killing animals needlessly ??? No. God asked for the sacrifice to impress on His people that the awful price for sin is death and what sin does to life.

I don’t believe anyone is more or less holier for choosing or not choosing to eat meat. It’s been a part of human living for millenia on millenia…(probably should be eating less, and probably should be treating the animals for slaughter better however…). …but we see in Acts 10 by the dream peter had about “unclean” animals that it is ok to eat all meats when the dream pictured angels bringing down animals from heaven and a voice said : “kill and eat”.

I think your choice to be vegan can be a noble one if done for the right reasons, however is a personal choice that has nothing to really do with the spiritual life.

God bless,

Michael
 
MichaelHowling said:
Hey Dave. Good question!

For a moment I had to think about it… I went back to genesis and was suprised to see that God seemed to ask man to only eats fruits and such and the animals too only were to eat plants.

Before the fall, man was full with Gods life … he was full of sanctifying grace. After the fall…everything changed. Man needed to feed on living animals. He had to take lives to stay alive because now there was something lacking in Man.

We know it’s not against God’s law to take the life of animals for food because of the jewish perscriptions for how to prepare meats for food. As a matter of fact …there are moments when God insisted on man eating meat …example: the passover supper where God insisted on everyone eating lamb.

Another thing I want to point out is the sacrifices required by God at the temple for sin. They killed thousands of animals yearly at the temple as sin and thank offerings to God…directed by God Himself. There’s a scripture passage that points out that these sacrifices didn’t really take away sin…so does that mean the people were killing animals needlessly ??? No. God asked for the sacrifice to impress on His people that the awful price for sin is death and what sin does to life.

I don’t believe anyone is more or less holier for choosing or not choosing to eat meat. It’s been a part of human living for millenia on millenia…(probably should be eating less, and probably should be treating the animals for slaughter better however…). …but we see in Acts 10 by the dream peter had about “unclean” animals that it is ok to eat all meats when the dream pictured angels bringing down animals from heaven and a voice said : “kill and eat”.

I think your choice to be vegan can be a noble one if done for the right reasons, however is a personal choice that has nothing to really do with the spiritual life.

God bless,

Michael
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Thank you. As I stated, I accept the Church’s position (and thus, God’s opinion) on the use of animals. And this is open to interpretation, be it eating a Big Mac every day (not good) to veg*sm. I know of the scriptural passages you mentioned. The trouble me sometimes, especially the temple sacrifices. But then I step back and realize God is a mystery…it’s so hard some times. I can’t imagine that in the New Heaven and Earth, should there be animals, they will be slaughter for food.
 
DaveEucharist said:
Thank you. As I stated, I accept the Church’s position (and thus, God’s opinion) on the use of animals. And this is open to interpretation, be it eating a Big Mac every day (not good) to veg*sm. I know of the scriptural passages you mentioned. The trouble me sometimes, especially the temple sacrifices. But then I step back and realize God is a mystery…it’s so hard some times. I can’t imagine that in the New Heaven and Earth, should there be animals, they will be slaughter for food.
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For me, the issue of “ok/not ok” (on a personal level, as the Church’s teachings have already been discussed) comes down to this: Would I allow an animal to die to feed my starving family?

The answer, for me, is a big, fat “yes.”
 
Lochias said:
For me, the issue of “ok/not ok” (on a personal level, as the Church’s teachings have already been discussed) comes down to this: Would I allow an animal to die to feed my starving family?

The answer, for me, is a big, fat “yes.”
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So would I- for myself now as I do not have a family.

My concern is about eating animals when it is not necessary. I know it is not a sin, but how/why is it that some Catholics in the position to not eat animals still do. Is God happy with these differently interpretations of the catechism passages I quoted? I’m not sure but Genesis 1:28-30 seems to imply that he did not intend for us to originally eat animals.

It’s that one word that bothers me- “Needlessly”. The other day I was at an event with cake. I couldn’t be sure if there were eggs inside of it and if those eggs came from a hatchery where male chicks are killed. So I avoided it. And this was a parish function. Is God happy with the current system of killing off male chicks? Is that in violation of the needless suffering mentioned in the catechism? There are ways to replace eggs. Another church function had sausages from Smithfield. Smithfield is known for vertical factory farming including gestation crates for pigs, etc. Would God be unhappy with that at a parish event?
 
IMHO you are over-thinking this. You have already admitted that you know it is not a sin to be a vegetarian. Many of us are vegetarians - nothing wrong with it.

Jesus was not a vegetarian. Any speculation on why is beyond our ability to prove or disprove. John the Baptist ate locusts, so he wasn’t even Kosher!

Speaking of Kosher, that got thrown out with the New Testament. At that time, I believe we pretty much got the lesson that God didn’t care what we ate. Meat eaters are not more or less holy than vegetarians. Eating Kosher isn’t going to get you closer to God. All those rules and regulations were meant to teach a chosen people discipline, to make them thoughtful about their moment to moment life and to set them apart from other tribes.

Now what sets us apart is how we love our neighbor and God. Not what we put in our mouth.

My son is a natural vegetarian - he just can’t tolerate the thought or smell of meat. When he was a baby, we wrote it off to the texture and his having special needs. Now he is 16 and tells us that, “I love animals, not eat them” (he has Down syndrome so his speech is delayed). He isn’t any holier or less holy by his dietary choice. Nor are you. Its just fuel for the body. What God cares about is the fuel for your soul.
 
DaveEucharist said:
So would I- for myself now as I do not have a family.

My concern is about eating animals when it is not necessary. I know it is not a sin, but how/why is it that some Catholics in the position to not eat animals still do. Is God happy with these differently interpretations of the catechism passages I quoted? I’m not sure but Genesis 1:28-30 seems to imply that he did not intend for us to originally eat animals.

It’s that one word that bothers me- “Needlessly”. The other day I was at an event with cake. I couldn’t be sure if there were eggs inside of it and if those eggs came from a hatchery where male chicks are killed. So I avoided it. And this was a parish function. Is God happy with the current system of killing off male chicks? Is that in violation of the needless suffering mentioned in the catechism? There are ways to replace eggs. Another church function had sausages from Smithfield. Smithfield is known for vertical factory farming including gestation crates for pigs, etc. Would God be unhappy with that at a parish event?
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If you choose not to eat meat and eggs and not to wear products made from animals, great. I was a vegetarian for 12 years, but I never expected the world to conform to my own decision not to eat meat. Being a vegetarian made my life a little more difficult in some ways. But that choice was coherent with my belief system so it didn’t matter to me.

But this last message comes close to being holier-than-thou…“What would God think of a cake with eggs in it?” I think you are congratulating yourself for following what you interpret God’s intention might be, and judging the rest of us who aren’t vegetarians and vegans (by the way, why are you writing that word with a * in it?).
 
DaveEucharist said:
So would I- for myself now as I do not have a family.

My concern is about eating animals when it is not necessary. I know it is not a sin, but how/why is it that some Catholics in the position to not eat animals still do. Is God happy with these differently interpretations of the catechism passages I quoted? I’m not sure but Genesis 1:28-30 seems to imply that he did not intend for us to originally eat animals.

It’s that one word that bothers me- “Needlessly”. The other day I was at an event with cake. I couldn’t be sure if there were eggs inside of it and if those eggs came from a hatchery where male chicks are killed. So I avoided it. And this was a parish function. Is God happy with the current system of killing off male chicks? Is that in violation of the needless suffering mentioned in the catechism? There are ways to replace eggs. Another church function had sausages from Smithfield. Smithfield is known for vertical factory farming including gestation crates for pigs, etc. Would God be unhappy with that at a parish event?
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I am wondering if you would be interested in an order at is vegetarian. some of them are
and a number of the saints were vegetarian/vegan. The reason I ask this is that it does you no good to go to parish functions that will have meat/dairy products and get upset or think why God would be unhappy with this. While you feel called or strongly about the diet you have chosen, the Church does not require this of everyone and it might be better for you since you are single to seek out an order that has as its discipline a vegetarian diet.
This is just a thought.
peace
 
I think God has placed with in you a deep love for animals. That is probably a grace not given to the general population. This love to soften your heart, and practice God’s all encompassing love is a good thing, and a way for you to practice sacrafice, & holiness. I think the animals will be with us forever. Maybe with out these farms there would be fewer animals born & thus living in eternity? I do believe we were originally intended to live in a world with plentiful food, with out sin which begat disease, & death. However since satan was thrown out of Heaven, he started a war with God’s children. He wants to punish God by taking his children away from Him.

We live in a war zone. Perhaps God is making allowances for this, since he did not teach us to avoid meat. I do believe those who abuse animals will be held accountable. It bothers me too see cattle & horses sweltering with no shade, or dogs in the snow & rain w/o shelter. I believe that is wrong to cause such prolonged, daily suffering. I would not want to live that way. Yet, I am gratelful that my husband shot an elk, and my family will be well fed for an entire year. I have felt a calling to defend animals, but I have not decerned a calling to be vegetarian. Perhaps there is a difference in what God is calling each of us to do?

“the Lion will lay with the Lamb” does lead me to believe we will return to our natural state for which we were created when disease, and death will cease! What a relief that will be.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
If you choose not to eat meat and eggs and not to wear products made from animals, great. I was a vegetarian for 12 years, but I never expected the world to conform to my own decision not to eat meat. Being a vegetarian made my life a little more difficult in some ways. But that choice was coherent with my belief system so it didn’t matter to me.

But this last message comes close to being holier-than-thou…“What would God think of a cake with eggs in it?” I think you are congratulating yourself for following what you interpret God’s intention might be, and judging the rest of us who aren’t vegetarians and vegans (by the way, why are you writing that word with a * in it?).
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I’m sorry it came across this way. God allows people to enjoy sirloin steak (I make a seitan dish similar to it) but I feel he doesn’t want his animals mistreated on the way to the the freezer. He might also be disappointed with meat based gluttony- or any gluttony for that matter. For example, there is a game in which people consume as many chicken wings as possible. It’s disgusting and I think a misuse of chickens. You don’t need to eat that to survive.

I’m using veg*n for vegetarian/vegan.

“Vegan” means to abstain from any form animal use"as far as practical". At a dietary level it includes not eating any animal products whatsoever “as far as practical”. I accepted a piece of cake with eggs at my brother’s wedding but I would buy or make such a thing myself. It wasn’t “vegan of me” but I accepted that and later felt horrible about it. I’m trying not to be scrupulous like that.

For my medical profession I occasionally perform experiments on only mice and rats. It’s hard for me to deal with but since it is medical research I trust it is in accord with my own interpretation ( for me personally) if “animals should not suffer needlessly”.

Wearing wool and cashmere isn’t even vegan even though obtaining the materials does not involve killing the animals. I am considering making an allowance with these products. Sheep are so cute and strong animal welfare laws protect them against cruelty in Australia, etc. These products are strong materials with qualities others can not match. What bothers me is that in mainstream industry is these animals will be used for food when they age and it is also connected with this lamb meat industry- eating a baby animal. I admire much wool and cashmere clothing but keep thinking over and over about it, even praying in adoration if in should be a patron of wool products. I have the financial means to purchase fool from an Amish farm that treats their sheep very well and have a custom clothier make items for me.
 
Thank you. I am aware of this. My parents gave it to me many years ago. They are not vegetarians but only eat free ranged animals and the fish they catch themselves.
Augusta1990 said:
Hi Dave,

You may already have seen this article, but if you haven’t, I think you might find it helpful. It’s a nuanced, very convincing treatment of ethical vegetarianism from a Catholic point of view (and could apply to veganism as well).

jesusradicals.com/wp-content/uploads/catholic-case-for-vegetarianism.pdf

Hope this helps!
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I will look into it.
robwar said:
I am wondering if you would be interested in an order at is vegetarian. some of them are
and a number of the saints were vegetarian/vegan. The reason I ask this is that it does you no good to go to parish functions that will have meat/dairy products and get upset or think why God would be unhappy with this. While you feel called or strongly about the diet you have chosen, the Church does not require this of everyone and it might be better for you since you are single to seek out an order that has as its discipline a vegetarian diet.
This is just a thought.
peace
Click to expand...
 
DaveEucharist said:
I’m sorry it came across this way. God allows people to enjoy sirloin steak (I make a seitan dish similar to it) but I feel he doesn’t want his animals mistreated on the way to the the freezer. He might also be disappointed with meat based gluttony- or any gluttony for that matter. For example, there is a game in which people consume as many chicken wings as possible. It’s disgusting and I think a misuse of chickens. You don’t need to eat that to survive.

I’m using veg*n for vegetarian/vegan.

“Vegan” means to abstain from any form animal use"as far as practical". At a dietary level it includes not eating any animal products whatsoever “as far as practical”. I accepted a piece of cake with eggs at my brother’s wedding but I would buy or make such a thing myself. **It wasn’t “vegan of me” but I accepted that and later felt horrible about it. I’m trying not to be scrupulous like that.
**
For my medical profession I occasionally perform experiments on only mice and rats. It’s hard for me to deal with but since it is medical research I trust it is in accord with my own interpretation ( for me personally) if “animals should not suffer needlessly”.

Wearing wool and cashmere isn’t even vegan even though obtaining the materials does not involve killing the animals. I am considering making an allowance with these products. Sheep are so cute and strong animal welfare laws protect them against cruelty in Australia, etc. These products are strong materials with qualities others can not match. What bothers me is that in mainstream industry is these animals will be used for food when they age and it is also connected with this lamb meat industry- eating a baby animal. I admire much wool and cashmere clothing but keep thinking over and over about it, even praying in adoration if in should be a patron of wool products. I have the financial means to purchase fool from an Amish farm that treats their sheep very well and have a custom clothier make items for me.
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Yep I did wonder about scruples. Don’t beat yourself up about eating a piece of wedding cake, please! Or, if it’s going to bother you later, just hand me the cake and I will eat it for you. 🍰:coffee: I got no problems eating cake!

I thought vegan only had to do with not eating any animal products. I didn’t know that extended into not even wearing products from sheep like wool! I assure you that the sheep don’t mind being shorn! Why anyone would object to using wool, makes no sense to me. 🤷

I recommend that you talk to your confessor about this issue. I have the feeling that your scruples are coming out in this arena.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
Yep I did wonder about scruples. Don’t beat yourself up about eating a piece of wedding cake, please! Or, if it’s going to bother you later, just hand me the cake and I will eat it for you. 🍰:coffee: I got no problems eating cake!

I thought vegan only had to do with not eating any animal products. I didn’t know that extended into not even wearing products from sheep like wool! I assure you that the sheep don’t mind being shorn! Why anyone would object to using wool, makes no sense to me. 🤷

I recommend that you talk to your confessor about this issue. I have the feeling that your scruples are coming out in this arena.
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I witnessed sheep being shorn. Amazingly cute. They seem to like it. They would go extinct without human domestication. I am seriously considering purchasing some wool sweaters from a clothing line with products made in USA and UK.
 
I know what you mean I have tried many times to be vegetarian even vegan but I cave when I start to get tired. I’m currently vego plus allow fish.
I believe what the Church says how it’s not wrong to eat meat but I totally agree with how wrong meat gluttony is. I think it can be very easy to get gluttonous with meat as it has something in it (I have heard) which makes you want more.
I think if people eat meat and animal products it should be a small part of the diet, in fact it is healthier to eat more veggies and fruit and wholemeal grains.
I must say if you eat no meat or even no animal products the truth is (me personally) you feel a lot more energetic and lighter and clear headed. Meat is bad if too much is eaten as it lodges in the intestines and stays there for long time… :confused:

But yes, you have to be careful you don’t become over scrupulous about it. Do your best but don’t beat yourself up if you break it a tiny bit sometimes. God loves you.
 
My wife is ovo-lacto-pesco (so nothing that walks or flies), and I’m celiac (which is a whole nother difficulty). We don’t feel there’s any conflict with our faith - and I would agree with some posts here that a vegetarian lifestyle is probably preferred to some extent. There’s reason to believe that in the Garden of Eden, no flesh was consumed, and it’s possible that carnivores emerged because of the Fall - hence why the Kingdom of God is described as the lion laying with the lamb.

I’ve also met a number of pastors - including Protestants - who are vegetarian in imitation of this belief. You’re not the only one who is faithful to Christ and veg*n. So long as you make good use of the resources under your stewardship (not eating more food is a better stewardship of resources than eating too much), you aren’t in any danger of sin.

And you do not have to eat fish or seafood during Lent. Perhaps offering something else as a penitential act would be sufficient. My wife goes without dairy on Lenten Fridays, for example, and I’ve given up various things from hot showers to sweets to being angry to alcohol.
 
I hope you find some peace in this thread. I cannot imagine the conflict between your religion and your ethical choices driving your diet.

FWIW: I don’t see even a remote indication that Catholicism is inconsistent with a Vegan diet.

Now, if you’re elevating animal welfare above human welfare, then that’s a different ballgame. But you didn’t hint that this was the case, and said you’d eat meat if it meant feeding your family, so in my book - you’re just good Vegan Catholic!

Pass the beans!
 
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