Trouble with being vegetarian and Catholic

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Yes I have seen those disturbing comments too 😦

I think definitely if you eat meat it should be done in respect and thankfulness that it was the life of a creature which is now your food.
I think in this society with all the ways meat is sold so easily in take away and fast food places it’s easy to take it for granted and not even realize it was once a living animal.
One way to take animal product eating (ā€œmeatā€ is too ambiguous, but I get it) seriously is to at least once a year hunt, kill, and skin an animal. That will really teach a person the value of an animal’s life. That’s what I did. Unfortunately, I witnessed some hunt for sport and laugh/joke over a dying or dead animal, high fives, etc.
 
I can assure you animals have to die to provide all the vegetables that are eaten. If you don’t believe me, just try growing a garden big enough to feed roughly 150 people. That is about the number of people one farmer feeds. I’m sure you would kill many insects and probably a rabbit or two or maybe even a deer. Nothing quite as frustrating as tilling, planting, weeding, and just before harvest have your crops eaten by wild animals.
 
I can assure you animals have to die to provide all the vegetables that are eaten. If you don’t believe me, just try growing a garden big enough to feed roughly 150 people. That is about the number of people one farmer feeds. I’m sure you would kill many insects and probably a rabbit or two or maybe even a deer. Nothing quite as frustrating as tilling, planting, weeding, and just before harvest have your crops eaten by wild animals.
Yes. I knew that and forgot to included it in my discussions.
Animals also die in medical experiments. As mentioned, I occasionally perform them on rats and mice.

The growth of plant based foods requires indirectly and directly the killing of animals and insects that ā€œget in the wayā€. This is very different from such practices as vertical factory farming: raising animals in general confinement until they are slaughtered for food.

As far as direct killing–farming animals for slaughter is much more intense than growing plant based foods. Multiple Battery cage egg laying hens are stuffed into cages not much larger than microwaves, mother sows kept in gestation crates, calves separated from their mothers and raised to have tender meat for veal, etc. These things are in ways crueler than what happens to creatures that ā€œget in the wayā€ of plant based food production.
 
We have rocky hillsides that grow enough grass to run our cows on, that is if it isn’t to dry. Chickens are raised in houses with the exact right temp and humidity levels for maximum production. They never go hungry or thirsty or else they will not grow well and the farmer will lose money.

Let’s say we take these things out of our food production. A lot of land that is great for raising beef, would be worthless in growing crops. Would you have any concern at all for the possibility of not having enough food for all the people of the world?
 
I agree people should not be gluttons. That is sinful. As far as people respecting animals, the farmers and ranchers I know have the greatest respect for all of God’s creation. That is why they choose this lifestyle. I can attest it is not to get rich.
 
Eating animals does not contradict Catholicism. It is not against my Catholic faith but rather against how I decide to live out Catechism 2416-2418 and realization that God created a vegetarian world before the Fall and Flood.

You mentioned that other animals eat each other. True, but that was only after the Fall and Flood. In Genesis 1:29-30 God gave plants as food to both humans and animals. **That is why I wonder if the eating of animals by humans and other animals is a sort of imperfect state God allows. Is it or is it not? ** We have free will and were created in His image. Unlike animals, we can choose to shift paradigms ourselves and avoid eating animals- but we don’t have to.

In the future the lion way way down with the lamb. Am I wrong to interpret that as a future vegetarian Kingdom of God? I want to imitate it as much as possible and cannot be complacent in eating animals if I can live fine without doing so, especially factory farmed animals.

The catechism states that animals ā€œshould not suffer or die needlesslyā€. I have interpreted my own situation as not needing to eat animals or their eggs/milk as food or wear their skins. A large portion of these products come from factory farms which are not pleasant for animals and cause them suffering. I’m just curious- do you know the conditions of which your animal food products were raised and slaughtered in? Does it concern you?

It’s all of these concerns that cause my personal tensions between eating animals and Catholicism. People in my parish (USA) eat meats after Mass. Nothing inherently wrong with that at all! But, do they stop to think that maybe those animals suffered and died needlessly as warned in the Catechism?
Says who that Creation was vegetarian before the Fall? The Bible doesn’t go nearly so far as to say that neither animals nor man ate meat prior to the Fall, and we know they must have as early as Abel who was an animal farmer. I think you are reading more into what scripture has to say on the matter than is warranted.
 
We have rocky hillsides that grow enough grass to run our cows on, that is if it isn’t to dry. Chickens are raised in houses with the exact right temp and humidity levels for maximum production. They never go hungry or thirsty or else they will not grow well and the farmer will lose money.

Let’s say we take these things out of our food production. A lot of land that is great for raising beef, would be worthless in growing crops. Would you have any concern at all for the possibility of not having enough food for all the people of the world?
Eating animals is always an option. Some people prefer not to raise and animal and kill it to eat. I know God gave permission to eat them or whatever products they secrete (milk, eggs) but I choose not to. I accept that God gave permission to eat animals. He wanted us to be be good stewards. You can be a good steward how you want- eat animals or don’t.

My answer to your question is one word: innovation.

Perhaps there will be a paradigm shift in the far future, like 40+ years. Why use resources and land to grow animals ( and confine them, even if ā€œhumanelyā€ done) when we might be able to grow enough non animal foods, thereby eliminating the need to raise and kill animals-which requires space and food for them.

verticalfarm.com

Will this (vertical farming)allow human civilization to nearly, if not completely, avoiding raising and killing animals for food? Massive vertical farming of plant foods isn’t common place yet, so animal products remain a source of food.

Standard practices on intensive animal factory farms still include painful practices. Piglets can legally be castrated without anesthesia. Gestation crates for mother sows are legal in over 40 USA states. Veal calves are fed a diet to make them purposely anemic. The standard method of killing a piglet is slamming it head first to the ground. Even if laws improve to make the lives. I’m some ways, factory farming of animals is similar to vertical farming, maybe with just the exception of tall buildings.

AI’m just curious. No need to be specific but am I the youngest person here? I’m 27. We all have our biases. I am young, grew up, studied, and live(d) in ā€œslickā€ urban centers of the Northeast USA (Boston, NYC, etc). I admit I have never been to any place considered ā€œruralā€ aside from passing by on the freeway and that suburbs bore me. I’m very experienced in growing some of my own crops.

Not to be rude, but do people older than me possibly have less desire to give up animal products? It just seems that many vegetarians/vegans tend to be young adultish types-- avoiding animal foods and clothing products (from slaughter) as much as they can. I could be mistaken as I only have friends and acquaintances around my age.
 
Correction about me having never been in a rural place. I’ve been hunting but obviously not in rural residential areas.
 
I wouldn’t think age has as much to do with being vegan as culture, but I don’t know. IMO people who haven’t been around animals and rural life have a completely different view of how things work. For instance, if we all did quit eating meat and only ate plants, what would we do with all the animals. They still reproduce, then there will be more of them and they will require more food. Would we have to get them all fixed like we do our dogs and cats? Would we let them become extinct? I don’t think many people are going to want to keep farm animals around just to feed and doctor. Deer, if not hunted become overpopulated, they get diseased and die. This seems much more disrespectful and wasteful of Gods gifts to me. This is just a few of the many problems I could think of. God made us stewards of His creation, not just to look at it and admire the beauty, but to use it in a way that benefits all mankind.

I have no problem with someone that doesn’t want to eat meat, it is their choice. There is no sin in it, and I believe if it is done as a self-sacrifice for the love of God would be of great spiritual benefit. I do think some people, and I’m not meaning you, worship the creation instead of the Creator.
 
I wouldn’t think age has as much to do with being vegan as culture, but I don’t know. IMO people who haven’t been around animals and rural life have a completely different view of how things work. For instance, if we all did quit eating meat and only ate plants, what would we do with all the animals. They still reproduce, then there will be more of them and they will require more food. Would we have to get them all fixed like we do our dogs and cats? Would we let them become extinct? I don’t think many people are going to want to keep farm animals around just to feed and doctor. Deer, if not hunted become overpopulated, they get diseased and die. This seems much more disrespectful and wasteful of Gods gifts to me. This is just a few of the many problems I could think of. God made us stewards of His creation, not just to look at it and admire the beauty, but to use it in a way that benefits all mankind.

I have no problem with someone that doesn’t want to eat meat, it is their choice. There is no sin in it, and I believe if it is done as a self-sacrifice for the love of God would be of great spiritual benefit. I do think some people, and I’m not meaning you, worship the creation instead of the Creator.
I admire your views!

As for what would happen with all the animals.Well, there wouldn’t be nearly as many in the first place if especially Westerners (like USA) didn’t eat so many animal products. Something like 8 to 10 billion cows, chickens, turkeys, and pigs a year in the USA alone.

As a Catholic, I don’t take a truism position with vegetarianism/veganism. Details are throughout this thread.

As for hunting deer- I did that once. As i mentioned, it was a learning experience for me. I decided that if I wanted to eat animals I should at least do the dirty work myself.

Thank you all. I have come to much more peace with my practice of vegetarianism and Catholicism.

For all you non vegetarians- I would like to at least encourage you to be conscientious consumers. Find out where your products are coming from. Googles"factory farming" etc. You might have to dig through sources like Humane Society, Mercy for Animals, etc You may not agree with any suggestions to avoid eating animal products all together but it will hopefully encourage you to do some homework and eventually vote with your dollars. If you can go to a farmers marker-all the better. You might have to pay a little more and/or eat less products-- but God’s defenseless animals deserve better than even some legal/standard factory farm practices.

Dave
 
Standard practices on intensive animal factory farms still include painful practices. Piglets can legally be castrated without anesthesia. Gestation crates for mother sows are legal in over 40 USA states. Veal calves are fed a diet to make them purposely anemic. The standard method of killing a piglet is slamming it head first to the ground. Even if laws improve to make the lives. I’m some ways, factory farming of animals is similar to vertical farming, maybe with just the exception of tall buildings.

AI’m just curious. No need to be specific but am I the youngest person here? I’m 27. We all have our biases. I am young, grew up, studied, and live(d) in ā€œslickā€ urban centers of the Northeast USA (Boston, NYC, etc). I admit I have never been to any place considered ā€œruralā€ aside from passing by on the freeway and that suburbs bore me. I’m very experienced in growing some of my own crops.
Dave, I’m 17. So I doubt that you are the youngest person here! šŸ˜›

I don’t think that animal agriculture will ever be done away with. It’s too important, too valuable. There are so many places in the world where crops cannot be grown, but the land is still suitable for raising sheep and cattle. Tillable land is an exception more than a rule. There is so much space that CANNOT be used for anything except grazing.

Also, humans cannot digest grass, but sheep and cattle can, and they can convert something almost totally useless to us into highly nutritious meat and milk, as well as wearable products such as wool and leather.

I suggest that you spend some time actually working on farms and slaughterhouses before you make these statements. It’s easy to condemn practices when you don’t know what is behind them. You are getting your information from video footage on animal rights websites, which is hardly a good representative of what goes on on a farm, ā€œfactoryā€ or not. You have never gotten three hours of sleep in a 36 hour period because you were lambing out 200 ewes. You’ve never had to pull a calf on a hill in February, battling sub-zero winds in short sleeves while your arms are covered with OB lube and amniotic fluid. You’ve never been the one restraining the cow so the vet can suture her smashed teat, getting kicked all the time. You’ve never had to replace a uterine prolapse. You’ve never had to help a vet perform a C-section on a ewe and end up with dead triplets. You’ve never had to perform a rumenotomy on a sheep or cow. You’ve never vaccinated 50 head of steers in the summer heat. You’ve never hauled out hundreds of gallons of hot water out to thirsty ewes because the pump broke in the winter. You’ve never put up fencing.

You know what? That’s okay. Most people haven’t. Your lifestyle is your choice. If you don’t want to particpate, you don’t have to. If you choose not to eat meat, then you don’t have to. But please do not make it sound like not eating meat is preferable to consuming it, when it is not a moral matter at all- just like I’m not saying everybody should start farming when they do not wish to do so, or can’t.

By the way, surgical castration of piglets is usually an incredibly humane way of doing it. Do you really think that subjecting young animals to general anesthesia is the way to go? It’s so remarkably swift, that it would probably take longer to inject lidocaine than to simply get the job done. It usually heals rapidly. I am highly in favor of this method in lambs and calves. After a certain point, I believe that lidocaine should be used, but analgesics are NOT without their risks. I am never in favor of unnecessary operations or anything that will cause more than very minimal pain.

I am not thrilled with gestation crates, but if you’ve ever actually been around a modern commercial sow, all she does is lies around anyway. Also, sows fight terribly when the mood strikes them, and they are not opposed to consuming their foes. Gestation crates are not ideal, but they are far better than that.

The method you described of euthanizing piglets sounds very troubling- but with a competent individual, it results in instant death- no pain. That’s the ideal euthanasia! Chemical euthanasia is not painless, and unfortunately veterinarians can tell you about the animals that did not go down right away- through no fault of the vet. It’s not foolproof.

I’m never in favor of deliberately creating substandard health situations in favor of a premium product, like veal. Most veal in the US is not from iron-deficient calves.

If you’ve ever worked on most farms, you’ll see that the health and happiness of the livestock is a huge focus, for without it, it’s impossible to produce a quality product. The vast majority of these animals are comfortable, climate-controlled settings, given regular veterinary care, have a comfortable place to rest, and have food brought right to them. I will admit that it is not ideal, but as I said before, I think they are doing pretty well for how they choose to manage them. I don’t have a favorable opinion of some of the modern managemnt techniques, but I would strongly hesitate to say that they are being mistreated.

Without agriculture, cattle and sheep would cease to exist, as would every other livestock species, except maybe for horses, as they are often kept as pets. Farming is a symbiosis, a partnership, in which we pledge to provide for their needs, and in return, they give us what we need. We love our animals, we love the land, and we want to be good stewards of these wonderful gifts that God blessed us with. ā€œBe thou diligent to know the state of thy flocks, and look well to thy herdsā€ as it says in Proverbs.
 
After coming across this thread I just wanted to add a different slant on the vegetarian subject. I’m 42 now and the only meat I’ve eaten was as a baby. I didn’t choose it, in fact I’ve spent my life wishing I could eat meat, fish dairy. The only reason I can give is that from about age 2, meat didn’t appear as food to me?? A piece of meat or fish on the plate may as well be a table leg. I just didn’t get the ā€˜chip’ that tells you meat is food. Would appreciate your thoughts
 
After coming across this thread I just wanted to add a different slant on the vegetarian subject. I’m 42 now and the only meat I’ve eaten was as a baby. I didn’t choose it, in fact I’ve spent my life wishing I could eat meat, fish dairy. The only reason I can give is that from about age 2, meat didn’t appear as food to me?? A piece of meat or fish on the plate may as well be a table leg. I just didn’t get the ā€˜chip’ that tells you meat is food. Would appreciate your thoughts
My thoughts are that you’re more sane than 99% of people. Meat, dairy, etc. would appear extremely gross if it weren’t for the fact we’re so used to it.
 
My thoughts are that you’re more sane than 99% of people. Meat, dairy, etc. would appear extremely gross if it weren’t for the fact we’re so used to it.
Well, maybe you can tell us poor, insane mortals who live down here below Mt. Olympus exactly why meat and dairy ā€œwould appear extremely gross.ā€ Furthermore, with your wonderful, sane capacities, maybe you could also unequivocally prove this statement for us disgusting, meat-eating heathens?
 
After coming across this thread I just wanted to add a different slant on the vegetarian subject. I’m 42 now and the only meat I’ve eaten was as a baby. I didn’t choose it, in fact I’ve spent my life wishing I could eat meat, fish dairy. The only reason I can give is that from about age 2, meat didn’t appear as food to me?? A piece of meat or fish on the plate may as well be a table leg. I just didn’t get the ā€˜chip’ that tells you meat is food. Would appreciate your thoughts
I think you’re just fine. Nobody’s forcing you to eat meat, nor is being a vegetarian inherently bad or good. If you want to stick to veggies, more power to you.
 
Well, maybe you can tell us poor, insane mortals who live down here below Mt. Olympus exactly why meat and dairy ā€œwould appear extremely gross.ā€ Furthermore, with your wonderful, sane capacities, maybe you could also unequivocally prove this statement for us disgusting, meat-eating heathens?
Dude, chill. You took that way too personally.
 
Well, maybe you can tell us poor, insane mortals who live down here below Mt. Olympus exactly why meat and dairy ā€œwould appear extremely gross.ā€ Furthermore, with your wonderful, sane capacities, maybe you could also unequivocally prove this statement for us disgusting, meat-eating heathens?
And for the record, I was not excluding myself from the demographic of people who are just used to it. The poster is kind of unique.
 
Dude, chill. You took that way too personally.
Well, you might consider phrasing your statements a little more carefully. Implying that I am in the 99% of those ā€œless saneā€ than vstead because I do not find meat disgusting only reflects poorly on you.
 
And for the record, I was not excluding myself from the demographic of people who are just used to it. The poster is kind of unique.
Well, you can consider yourself less sane than a vegetarian all you want, but please don’t lump me in the same category, thanks very much.
 
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