Troubled by Matthew 7:13

[twf]

I do not hold on to the “most people go to hell” interpretation of the passage. This is because the number of the predestined, while unknown, is first of all, God’s decree. Since God is in control, it is hard to believe he would lay out an order of grace with a terrible failure rate. It pretty much sets up a kingdom smaller than the devil’s and God is not a lousy planner.

The “most people go to hell” interpretation extols man’s free will without considering God’s sovereignty when in fact the first movement is God’s by laying out the fixed order of grace.

Since i have a fairly high regard of God, i must believe the number of the elect is larger then the number of the reprobate.

I like to hope along these lines as well. There are some on this forum who almost seem to take a wicket glee in emphasizing how few will be saved. Promoting private revelations of skeptical origin that talk about a mere 3 out of 60 000 souls being saved or other such terrifying numbers… if such understandings are true, that would mean that here on CAF maybe 5 or 6 members have even a tiny shot of making it…out of the tens of thousands who post.

 

[steve_b]

I Corinthians 3:11-15:10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.Matthew 5:24-25 23 If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee; 24 Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift. 25 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.Matthew 12:31-3231 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.Need for Purification

Revelation 2122 And I saw no temple therein. For the Lord God Almighty is the temple thereof, and the Lamb. 23 And the city hath no need of the sun, nor of the moon, to shine in it. For the glory of God hath enlightened it, and the Lamb is the lamp thereof. 24 And the nations shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates thereof shall not be shut by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,a] that leads to destruction, ( ἀπώλειαν ) and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, ( ζωὴν ) and those who find it are few.

destruction, ( ἀπώλειαν ) does not describe purgatory. The link is operational. Open it for a description of the word. This describes a permanent state not a temporary state like purgatory.

the 2 places described in Mt 7, heaven and hell are permanent places. And Jesus is the one who is telling us in advance only a few enter heaven, while the rest enter hell.

Since people in purgatory ultimately go to heaven, then destruction, ( ἀπώλειαν ) does not describe THEM in this passage.

Those in purgatory then, are ultimately counted in with the few who enter or will enter heaven.

 

[JimB4]

Pardon me, but I have been following this thread from the beginning, and in my honest opinion, I don’t understand why the Road to Heaven is thought to be so complicated, and thereby troubling the mind so much.

In Matthew 22: 35-40… it is written…

And one of them, a doctor of the Law, putting him to the test, asked him, “Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?” Jesus said to him, “‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.’ This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like it, ‘Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

These 2 Commandments, are all that is necessary… that, and daily praying for His Graces, and His Mercy to achieve those 2 Commandments.

The ONLY things that I seek in this life, is the Grace to love our Lord completely, to love my neighbor, and the perfect accomplishment of His Will for me… nothing else… I consider all material things as rubbish.

In my Near-Death Experience that I had a number of years ago… I got a small taste of the total love, and peace that awaits me… I have no fear of death… I welcome it…

Jim

 

[Vico]

Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,a] that leads to destruction, ( ἀπώλειαν ) and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, ( ζωὴν ) and those who find it are few.

destruction, ( ἀπώλειαν ) does not describe purgatory. The link is operational. Open it for a description of the word. This describes a permanent state not a temporary state like purgatory.

the 2 places described in Mt 7, heaven and hell are permanent places. And Jesus is the one who is telling us in advance only a few enter heaven, while the rest enter hell.

Since people in purgatory ultimately go to heaven, then destruction, ( ἀπώλειαν ) does not describe THEM in this passage.

Those in purgatory then, are ultimately counted in with the few who enter or will enter heaven.

That sounds correct to me. Another interesting teaching is that it is necessary to have merit to receive the Beatific Vision so the infants that die without baptism are not admitted neither to purgatory nor heaven.

Pope Gregory X (Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma, 464):
(Second Council of Lyon, Profession of Faith for Michael Paleologus, 1274)

“The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only… immediately descend into Hell, yet to be punished with different punishments”

Pope Eugene IV (Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma, 693).:
(Council of Florence, Laetentur Caeli [Decree for the Greeks], July 6, 1439)

“Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds”​

 

[BornInMarch]

I looked over some of the posts here, and only a handful of the posters were actually helpful. The most helpful here was Techno2000, because he suggested that the Matthew quote could refer to purgatory and in fact provided quotes from works which are assured to be non-heretical. Likewise the person who suggested I look up the Timothy Quote (the one that states that God wants us to go to Heaven) made me feel good as well.

Everyone else just fed my fear and made me feel worse.

To be clear, I will NEVER be okey with “most people go to Hell”. Don’t talk about justice; whenever I hear someone say “most people go to Hell”, what I hear is “God does not love you. God has never loved you, and will never love you. God wants you to go to Hell because He hates you and every other human who has ever existed or will ever exist.”

So do not try to convince me that it is somehow even remotely just, or that God can do that and still love humanity. If the majority of people went to Hell, then it would be complete and undeniable evidence that God’s Love for humanity was nothing more than a cruel lie. That God only holds the illusion of salvation over our heads to watch us fail over and over again after designing us to fail.

If you want to say “The majority of people do go to Hell”, “Unbaptized babies go to Hell”, or “[the two previously mentioned things] are just”, then know that the only thing you succeed in doing is feeding my urge to scream, throw things, and generally have a panic attack for the rest of my life (I’m being hyperbolic; most likely I’d just give up on life).

 

[BornInMarch]

I like to hope along these lines as well.

I like to hope that as well, and because it is an option I will do so. If I am right, then I can rest easy knowing that God is not my enemy. If not then nothing would have been able to save me.

There are some on this forum who almost seem to take a wicket glee in emphasizing how few will be saved. Promoting private revelations of skeptical origin that talk about a mere 3 out of 60 000 souls being saved or other such terrifying numbers… if such understandings are true, that would mean that here on CAF maybe 5 or 6 members have even a tiny shot of making it…out of the tens of thousands who post.

I noticed that as well, both on this forum and in general.

It could be that being among “the saved few” makes them feel important and unique, it could be that they are only going to church and acting holy in an attempt to get to Heaven (and therefore would not do these things simply for the sake of being helping others), it could just be that they honestly hate most humans and like to believe that God agrees with them.

In any case, I can’t hold such a view.

 

[Vico]

I looked over some of the posts here, and only a handful of the posters were actually helpful. The most helpful here was Techno2000, because he suggested that the Matthew quote could refer to purgatory and in fact provided quotes from works which are assured to be non-heretical. Likewise the person who suggested I look up the Timothy Quote (the one that states that God wants us to go to Heaven) made me feel good as well.

Everyone else just fed my fear and made me feel worse.

To be clear, I will NEVER be okey with “most people go to Hell”. Don’t talk about justice; whenever I hear someone say “most people go to Hell”, what I hear is “God does not love you. God has never loved you, and will never love you. God wants you to go to Hell because He hates you and every other human who has ever existed or will ever exist.”

So do not try to convince me that it is somehow even remotely just, or that God can do that and still love humanity. If the majority of people went to Hell, then it would be complete and undeniable evidence that God’s Love for humanity was nothing more than a cruel lie. That God only holds the illusion of salvation over our heads to watch us fail over and over again after designing us to fail.

If you want to say “The majority of people do go to Hell”, “Unbaptized babies go to Hell”, or “[the two previously mentioned things] are just”, then know that the only thing you succeed in doing is feeding my urge to scream, throw things, and generally have a panic attack for the rest of my life (I’m being hyperbolic; most likely I’d just give up on life).

Well since Revelations indicates that one third of the angels choose to rebel it would not be unreasonable to think that could also be so with humans.

 

[Techno2000]

Sr. Josefa Menendez (1890-1923) -Jesus’ Message to the World of His Mercy for All

“I would like these [those living with sin] to understand that it is not the fact of being in sin that ought to keep them from Me. They must never think that there is no remedy for them, nor that they have forfeited for ever the love that once was theirs… No, poor souls, the God who has shed all His Blood for you has no such feelings for you!”

“It is My intention also, to show souls that I never refuse grace, even to those who are guilty of grave sin; nor do I separate them from the good souls whom I love with predilection. I keep them all in My Heart, that all may receive the help needed for their state of soul.” -Jesus to Sr. Josefa Menendez

mysticsofthechurch.com/2009/12/sister-josefa-menendez-way-of-divine.html

 

[steve_b]

I looked over some of the posts here, and only a handful of the posters were actually helpful. The most helpful here was Techno2000, because he suggested that the Matthew quote could refer to purgatory and in fact provided quotes from works which are assured to be non-heretical. Likewise the person who suggested I look up the Timothy Quote (the one that states that God wants us to go to Heaven) made me feel good as well.

Everyone else just fed my fear and made me feel worse.

To be clear, I will NEVER be okey with “most people go to Hell”. Don’t talk about justice; whenever I hear someone say “most people go to Hell”, what I hear is “God does not love you. God has never loved you, and will never love you. God wants you to go to Hell because He hates you and every other human who has ever existed or will ever exist.”

So do not try to convince me that it is somehow even remotely just, or that God can do that and still love humanity. If the majority of people went to Hell, then it would be complete and undeniable evidence that God’s Love for humanity was nothing more than a cruel lie. That God only holds the illusion of salvation over our heads to watch us fail over and over again after designing us to fail.

If you want to say “The majority of people do go to Hell”, “Unbaptized babies go to Hell”, or “[the two previously mentioned things] are just”, then know that the only thing you succeed in doing is feeding my urge to scream, throw things, and generally have a panic attack for the rest of my life (I’m being hyperbolic; most likely I’d just give up on life).

Revelation was not meant to throw panic into people. It was meant to instruct us how God wants us to live with Him forever. Since we already know that there are consequences in this life for our actions both good and bad, and heaven and hell exist, God through Revelation teaches us how to go to heaven and avoid hell in the next life. And because He gave us memory intellect and will, we then become responsible and culpable for how we use those tools and how we obey Him. IOW we have an important part to play in what happens to us

 

[JimB4]

Everyone else just fed my fear and made me feel worse.

To be clear, I will NEVER be okey with “most people go to Hell”. Don’t talk about justice; whenever I hear someone say “most people go to Hell”, what I hear is “God does not love you. God has never loved you, and will never love you. God wants you to go to Hell because He hates you and every other human who has ever existed or will ever exist.”

So do not try to convince me that it is somehow even remotely just, or that God can do that and still love humanity. If the majority of people went to Hell, then it would be complete and undeniable evidence that God’s Love for humanity was nothing more than a cruel lie. That God only holds the illusion of salvation over our heads to watch us fail over and over again after designing us to fail.

If you want to say “The majority of people do go to Hell”, “Unbaptized babies go to Hell”, or “[the two previously mentioned things] are just”, then know that the only thing you succeed in doing is feeding my urge to scream, throw things, and generally have a panic attack for the rest of my life (I’m being hyperbolic; most likely I’d just give up on life).

The only force that unsettles the mind, and creates fear… is the Prince of Darkness…

Ephesians 6: 10 - 17

"Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.

Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace.

In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication."

 

[TK421]

I looked over some of the posts here, and only a handful of the posters were actually helpful. The most helpful here was Techno2000, because he suggested that the Matthew quote could refer to purgatory and in fact provided quotes from works which are assured to be non-heretical. Likewise the person who suggested I look up the Timothy Quote (the one that states that God wants us to go to Heaven) made me feel good as well.

Everyone else just fed my fear and made me feel worse.

To be clear, I will NEVER be okey with “most people go to Hell”. Don’t talk about justice; whenever I hear someone say “most people go to Hell”, what I hear is “God does not love you. God has never loved you, and will never love you. God wants you to go to Hell because He hates you and every other human who has ever existed or will ever exist.”

So do not try to convince me that it is somehow even remotely just, or that God can do that and still love humanity. If the majority of people went to Hell, then it would be complete and undeniable evidence that God’s Love for humanity was nothing more than a cruel lie. That God only holds the illusion of salvation over our heads to watch us fail over and over again after designing us to fail.

If you want to say “The majority of people do go to Hell”, “Unbaptized babies go to Hell”, or “[the two previously mentioned things] are just”, then know that the only thing you succeed in doing is feeding my urge to scream, throw things, and generally have a panic attack for the rest of my life (I’m being hyperbolic; most likely I’d just give up on life).

Apologetics is meant to explain and defend: it doesn’t necessarily provide answers that our ears would prefer to hear.

Thank you for posting here.

 

[goout]

Pardon me, but I have been following this thread from the beginning, and in my honest opinion, I don’t understand why the Road to Heaven is thought to be so complicated, and thereby troubling the mind so much.

In Matthew 22: 35-40… it is written…

And one of them, a doctor of the Law, putting him to the test, asked him, “Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?” Jesus said to him, “‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.’ This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like it, ‘Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

These 2 Commandments, are all that is necessary… that, and daily praying for His Graces, and His Mercy to achieve those 2 Commandments.

The ONLY things that I seek in this life, is the Grace to love our Lord completely, to love my neighbor, and the perfect accomplishment of His Will for me… nothing else… I consider all material things as rubbish.

In my Near-Death Experience that I had a number of years ago… I got a small taste of the total love, and peace that awaits me… I have no fear of death… I welcome it…

Jim

Your comment goes to spiritual obesity, which is probably what Jesus is referring to. That’s what St John of the Cross reads here, and I agree with that point.

The point of the passage is not to get wired up about who’s in or out, it’s to become fit for heaven.
How do we do that? By shedding spiritual fat.
Charity
Simplicity
Humility
Child-like faith.

 

[Nelka]

That sounds correct to me. Another interesting teaching is that it is necessary to have merit to receive the Beatific Vision so the infants that die without baptism are not admitted neither to purgatory nor heaven.

Pope Gregory X (Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma, 464):
(Second Council of Lyon, Profession of Faith for Michael Paleologus, 1274)

“The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only… immediately descend into Hell, yet to be punished with different punishments”

Pope Eugene IV (Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma, 693).:
(Council of Florence, Laetentur Caeli [Decree for the Greeks], July 6, 1439)

“Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds”​

Does this mean a baby that dies with only original sin will go straight to Hell?

 

[Techno2000]

Does this mean a baby that dies with only original sin will go straight to Hell?

Hell is also Abraham’s bosom the deeper part is the abyss where the demons are, so the babies would be in the upper part of sheol

 

[Vico]

Does this mean a baby that dies with only original sin will go straight to Hell?

The concept is that only those that have merit can have the Beatific Vision (in the heavenly state) and that those infants do not have merit, but could be in a natural state of peace (in hell). But, it is answered in the Catechism this way:

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[Nelka]

The concept is that only those that have merit can have the Beatific Vision (in the heavenly state) and that those infants do not have merit, but could be in a natural state of peace (in hell). But, it is answered in the Catechism this way:

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Do you think these souls as it wasn’t their fault could end up with some sort of test/choice like the angels did?

 

[Vico]

Do you think these souls as it wasn’t their fault could end up with some sort of test/choice like the angels did?

A requisite for moral discernment is use of reason, and the soul is rational, so it seems possible for it to occur at the time of the instant of death. There is a certain doctrine that

• With death the possibility of merit or demerit or conversion ceases. (Sent. certa.)

The Beatific Vision requires merit however. Does such an infant have sanctifying grace (which is needed)? At that instant would have to be a baptism of desire.

 

[BornInMarch]

A requisite for moral discernment is use of reason, and the soul is rational, so it seems possible for it to occur at the time of the instant of death. There is a certain doctrine that

• With death the possibility of merit or demerit or conversion ceases. (Sent. certa.)

The Beatific Vision requires merit however. Does such an infant have sanctifying grace (which is needed)? At that instant would have to be a baptism of desire.

The Infants could be saved by the same thing that saves righteous adults who never knew of Jesus. The Catechism states that if somebody never heard of God but searches for him and lives a righteous life then he would go to heaven on the basis that he would have desired baptism had he known about it.

 

[Vico]

The Infants could be saved by the same thing that saves righteous adults who never knew of Jesus. The Catechism states that if somebody never heard of God but searches for him and lives a righteous life then he would go to heaven on the basis that he would have desired baptism had he known about it.

The key to the Beatific Vision is merit. Through St. Augustine we come to think the merit is required for that. So we have the dogma of faith that:

Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)

Of course baptism of water, desire, or blood would suffice for elimination of original sin. In the case of those that have not attained the age of reason, there is no election that we know of. The Church cannot say any more than that we hope for them.

 

[Nelka]

The key to the Beatific Vision is merit. Through St. Augustine we come to think the merit is required for that. So we have the dogma of faith that:

Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)

Of course baptism of water, desire, or blood would suffice for elimination of original sin. In the case of those that have not attained the age of reason, there is no election that we know of. The Church cannot say any more than that we hope for them.

That’s tough reading.

Didn’t Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI bring limbo to an end?