Troubling experience -- end-of-life issues

[Doc_Keele]

Lawyers and doctors may not violate natural law, moral law is written on the hearts of all men and applies to every human.

That’s not the point I was making, although there’s lots of room for argument with your assertion - doctors and lawyers and anyone else can violate natural law, they just cannot escape its consequences.
Catholic lawyers will be finding it hard to make a living then?
Catholic doctors may find themselves struck off in certain parts of the world. No Catholic doctors at all - interesting prospect.

 

[kage_ar]

Catholic lawyers will be finding it hard to make a living then?
Catholic doctors may find themselves struck off in certain parts of the world. No Catholic doctors at all - interesting prospect.

What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul?

Job, money, carreer, none of these are more important than God.

 

[Doc_Keele]

What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul?

Job, money, carreer, none of these are more important than God.

Yes, I knew you were going to say this. No Catholics in healthcare wouldn’t be a problem for you?

Naturally you would sell your home to support these impecunious former professionals?

 

[kage_ar]

Yes, I knew you were going to say this. No Catholics in healthcare wouldn’t be a problem for you?

Naturally you would sell your home to support these impecunious former professionals?

I have never owned a home.

I know many orthodox Catholic and strong Christian physicians who would never for a moment compromise Jesus for a paycheck.

 

[Doc_Keele]

I have never owned a home.

I know many orthodox Catholic and strong Christian physicians who would never for a moment compromise Jesus for a paycheck.

OK, support a jobless ex-physician and their family financially - you surely got my gist?

You still haven’t answered my question about having no Catholics in healthcare? Would that be OK?

 

[kage_ar]

OK, support a jobless ex-physician and their family financially - you surely got my gist?

You still haven’t answered my question about having no Catholics in healthcare? Would that be OK?

What I have belongs to God, I share it with all I can.

And if somehow the medical business meant required immorality, of course I would not want to see any Christians there, in the same way I am okay with seeing no Christians in the porn industry or there being no Catholics in human traffiking.

 

[Doc_Keele]

What I have belongs to God, I share it with all I can.

And if somehow the medical business meant required immorality, of course I would not want to see any Christians there, in the same way I am okay with seeing no Christians in the porn industry or there being no Catholics in human traffiking.

Straw man argument. I am not saying that practising medicine requires or might require immorality - only that professionals need to conform to professional ethics to be allowed to continue to practice. What right does a doctor have to impose treatment on a patient? None. That is not in contradiction with natural law.

 

[kage_ar]

Straw man argument. I am not saying that practising medicine requires or might require immorality - only that professionals need to conform to professional ethics to be allowed to continue to practice. What right does a doctor have to impose treatment on a patient? None. That is not in contradiction with natural law.

If the law requires doctors to participate in suicide in order to practice, or the law requires attorneys to advise on suicide in order to practice, the, the practice requires a violation of natural law. Christians would not be able to abide these requirements.

 

[Doc_Keele]

If the law requires doctors to participate in suicide in order to practice, or the law requires attorneys to advise on suicide in order to practice, the, the practice requires a violation of natural law. Christians would not be able to abide these requirements.

Like I say, a straw man argument.

 

[Langdell]

I don’t think it is part of the professional responsibility of a doctor or lawyer to give spiritual advice - and I could see crossing the boundary getting you in trouble. You’re there to give medical or legal advice. The client or patient informs YOU of their beliefs.

So say a couple comes into my office and asks for help drafting a will and an advance directive. If I tell them that there are different types of advance directives designed especially for particular religions and ask them if they have any concerns in that regard, I’m giving spiritual advice?

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[Doc_Keele]

So say a couple comes into my office and asks for help drafting a will and an advance directive. If I tell them that there are different types of advance directives designed especially for particular religions and ask them if they have any concerns in that regard, I’m giving spiritual advice?

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Well now you’re shifting the goalposts!
You mentioned Catholics not being aware of the Church’s position and pointing it out to them, and now you’re changing it to an issue of information being sought by the clients.
On a practical level, do you think it’s possible to know every single possible nuance of life and death issues that people across the planet might believe in?

 

[Rence]

I don’t understand why the Catholic Church doesn’t have people in place in each diocese for this sort of thing. You can bet that each Kingdom Hall probably does. Why is it up to the lawyers to know every religion’s guidelines for end-of-life decisions? If I go to a lawyer to draft a Living Will, I would not expect the lawyer to know the rules of the Catholic Church, or any church. The lawyer should just be aware that there are rules, and conform the Living Will or living power of attorney paperwork to refect the needs of the client. The same thing with being a nurse. Yes, we are supposed to have some basic knowledge of cultures, but rather than being knowledgeable of every rule of every faith, we are taught to be cognizant of the fact that there are specific rules for each religion and to respect them when patients make them known to us.

I just don’t get why everyone else has to cater to the CC or any other Church. They are there to provide services, and should be given direction by the client, not to know all the rules and make the client aware of them. In addition, what good is it for a lawyer to know the rules if the catholic in question doesn’t follow them?

 

[kage_ar]

I just don’t get why everyone else has to cater to the CC or any other Church.

On moral issues, we must “cater to” God. Why? Because He is the boss of us.

Non Christians may choose to sin, we cannot participate in that sin.

Non Christians may choose to commit the sin of suicide. A Christian lawyer may not morally draft the document that will do that. A Christian doctor may not dispense the medicine that will do that or advise them how to do it.

Every Diocese DOES have many people on staff to advise on moral issues, and the Church provides every line of doctrine for free on the internet and in books that are available in every parish.

 

[Langdell]

Well now you’re shifting the goalposts!
You mentioned Catholics not being aware of the Church’s position and pointing it out to them, and now you’re changing it to an issue of information being sought by the clients.

If you go back and read my comments, I think you’ll see that I haven’t said anything about pointing the Church’s position out to clients. My concern is that most practitioners have “standard” advance directive forms that they use, and if they aren’t aware that those forms are not appropriate for all clients, they may wind up guiding Catholic clients to unwittingly sign forms that are inappropriate.

On a practical level, do you think it’s possible to know every single possible nuance of life and death issues that people across the planet might believe in?

No. That’s why I interview my clients to understand their needs.

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[Rence]

If you go back and read my comments, I think you’ll see that I haven’t said anything about pointing the Church’s position out to clients. My concern is that most practitioners have “standard” advance directive forms that they use, and if they aren’t aware that those forms are not appropriate for all clients, they may wind up guiding Catholic clients to unwittingly sign forms that are inappropriate.

That’s what I thought. I thought that most attorneys have standard forms. Well, I’m not sure why you’re concerned because it’s up to the clients to know what is appropriate, isn’t it? You can’t blame a lawyer for handing a client a standard form, because the lawyer expects the client to make changes according to their wishes. If a lawyer knows that, for example, Jehovah Witnesses aren’t allowed blood transfusions, then they might include that in the form, but if they don’t know what JW’s rules are, they would expect the client to make the changes. It’s the same for a Catholic client. If the lawyer knows certain rules and guidelines, he or she would probably add it or ask first. But it really is up to that client to direct his or her wishes.

No. That’s why I interview my clients to understand their needs.
**
Yeah, like that I wouldn’t be concerned. You’re supposed to interview the client and let them direct the product. You’re not responsible for knowing, but of course, if you do, it’s a plus. And again, I wouldn’t assume someone is a practicing catholic, or any other religion, I’d ask. It’s their product, they pay for it, it’s up to them. **

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[Langdell]

I think it would be good if more lawyers and other advisors knew that their standard forms aren’t right for everyone. To me, it seems no different from being aware of the differences between C-corporations and S-corporations so that you can help your clients make the right choices (if that’s one’s area of specialty).

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[Rence]

Langdell, I’m sure they do know

 

[Doc_Keele]

If you go back and read my comments, I think you’ll see that I haven’t said anything about pointing the Church’s position out to clients

I disagree. You wrote “I fear that a lot of Catholics (and their advisors) may not realize that “standard” advanced directives and POAs include options that are opposed to Church teaching.”

My concern is that most practitioners have “standard” advance directive forms that they use, and if they aren’t aware that those forms are not appropriate for all clients, they may wind up guiding Catholic clients to unwittingly sign forms that are inappropriate

Which is where your comment below comes in.

No. That’s why I interview my clients to understand their needs.

And being “Catholic” doesn’t mean that one submits to the Magisterium wholly or partially.

 

[Doc_Keele]

On moral issues, we must “cater to” God. Why? Because He is the boss of us.

Non Christians may choose to sin, we cannot participate in that sin.

Non Christians may choose to commit the sin of suicide. A Christian lawyer may not morally draft the document that will do that. A Christian doctor may not dispense the medicine that will do that or advise them how to do it.

Every Diocese DOES have many people on staff to advise on moral issues, and the Church provides every line of doctrine for free on the internet and in books that are available in every parish.

Nothing about this makes the case that a secular professional educational event should address Catholic (or Buddhist or Muslim) end-of-life issues. Do you agree kage_ar?

 

[Langdell]

I disagree. You wrote “I fear that a lot of Catholics (and their advisors) may not realize that “standard” advanced directives and POAs include options that are opposed to Church teaching.”
Which is where your comment below comes in.
And being “Catholic” doesn’t mean that one submits to the Magisterium wholly or partially.

Doc, you seem to be determined to misunderstand me.

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