True love is a choice, correct?

[The_Geographer]

Um, you are talking about the difference of Courtly Love and Fairy Tales. Courtly love was an idea that a man chose a out of reach woman to worship per -say…which no one here is advocating by any means.

As a princess loving little girl, who in turn became a feminine woman, I happen to take offense at the insinuation that because of my love of Grimm’s Fairy tales and Chivalry that make me “high maintenance” and unfit as a wife and mother… I helped raise seven younger siblings while reading about Arthur and the other fairy stories.
Leave your daughter with a good impression of femininity and she will be a lovely young woman someday…very able to be a wife and mother.

You’re taking everything out of context to my thoughts. Don’t get so doug gone legalistic. You’d make a good fundamentalist prooftexting everything others say.

You’ve missed the point. playing princess as an adult is NOT a good thing in case someone has failed to teach you otherwise. Many women desire to live a fantacy life filled will all the blessings theology it has to offer…servantc, diamonds, luxuries, love to the infinite degree [love used loosely and probably is more along the line of “worship”]. And based on your “taking offense” you’ve made this subject all about you…another symptom of a sickened society that has failed to form their consciences in line with Christ. I’m NOT trying to offend you. You’ve decided to “take offense” on your very own. I stated it the way I see it…and don’t care if you take offense to what I believe to be my own beliefs. My wife agrees with me and therefore in her dignity elevates herself up to a child of God, not of someone wishing to be worshiped. There is a significant difference between giving someone the ultimate respect by treating them as a person deserving dignity of the human person compared to worshiping the ground they walk on. The difference between lust and love is an example. Trying to make fairy tales be real is grossly immature and has not place in Christian life. The stories are cute and wonderful, some of them. But some people has elevated these ideas to idolatry. If you don’'t like my thoughts then go do some study on the subject before trying to refute everything someone says. Sin is an interesting thing you know. We become so enchanted by its luxurious feel good philosophy that we lose our way back to reality unless someone pulls the rug out form under our feet. This is one of the main reasons that there are so so SO many people seeking annulments in our American culture…

I do apologize for not taking the time to more accurately and meticulously write more clear with better language. I’m just too busy to do this at the moment. I also know that even if I did you’d not receive it well anyway. This will have to be your journey. I’ve figured this out already and is why I’m seeking to either join or start an apostolate of the laity to help people realize true happiness in the ordinary life, not some made up fantasy world that only could be real in fairy tales. Because of our understanding of marriage and and commitment to see beyond the surface we were asked to take over the diocese level Pre-Cana program along with other marriage preparation programs.

 

[lovemyboys]

I appreciate flowers that my husband gets me on my birthday because he feels LOVE for me. But I wouldn’t appreciate them much if he felt no affection for me but bought them for me out of duty. That kind of “love” is empty & worthless.

(Sorry if that sounded harsh! I was typing quickly, just trying to get my thoughts out. No offense, I hope.)

Do men EVER buy flowers out of emotion and not out of a “sense of duty.” My dh is madly in love with me, but I think that buying flowers is always merely a “duty” to him. LOL

 

[agapewolf]

For those saying that maybe we misunderstood by assuming that when someone says “Love is a choice” they are also implying that love is not “emotional” or a “feeling,” I wanted to say that it depends on the person. Some people ARE implying that since love is a choice, it is not a feeling. In fact, the original poster pretty clearly said this. So I was referring to the original post.

So clearly the original poster disagrees that love is a matter of choice AND a feeling (or “emotion”). Although, of course, he was asking opinions as to whether or not his idea of love is correct.

Ok. I would be surprised if this is true. You would have to show me proof of that. But I think you misunderstand my position anyway, from what you say a few lines down.

But that IS what the original poster said. He said he disagrees with the advice that love is both a feeling AND a choice, and he said that love is NOT a choice. (see above)

I was not saying that love is pure feeling, but I think there is BOTH decision and emotion involved. In a sense, we know Jesus didn’t want to die a torturous death (who does?) but he DID do it willingly because he has a true pity and affection for his people, and for his Father in heaven. I don’t think it was pure dutiful choice. It was both. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I don’t think it has to be one or the other. I’m sure you would also be scared to death to marry someone who was marrying you out of pure choice / duty and had no personal affection for you (I’d hope). I don’t understand why it has to be one or the other (choice or emotion). I think clearly both are involved in true love.

Sidenote: It is also pretty sad to me that people just assume that after a few years (or however long), people will just fall “out of love” and not have any real emotional affection for each other anymore. When that happens I believe that is wrong and messed up. Even if you stick with someone when you feel like that and stay committed to them and make choices for their good out of pure duty, but have no affection for them, you do not love that person, in my opinion. And usually, it will show. After 10 years of marriage your heart may not go “a-flutter” everytime you see your spouse, but you should STILL very much have feelings of deep love and affection for them.

Anyway, even if we use the definition of love that it is wanting what is best for another person, WHY do we want what is best for that person? It’s because we have a real, heart-felt (to different degrees, depending on the relationship) affection & care for the person. And THAT is why you want the best for the person.

First of all, there is a huge misunderstanding going on. Love IS NOT a feeling. It may have outward benefits of emotions and feelings, but is not, by definition a feeling in itself. It is a tangent idea, not the definition.

They are not exclusionary of each other, but we must get the definition straight first. Just because love involves emotion does not mean it defines it.

Here is the catechism:

1766 “To love is to will the good of another.” All other affections have their source in this first movement of the human heart toward the good. Only the good can be loved. Passions “are evil if love is evil and good if it is good.”

To will the good of the other, as I said already, is the definition of love. It may involve emotion and feeling, but the what love IS…is a choice.

 

[The_Geographer]

For those of you that seem to have taken my thought offensively.

Please stop taking my posts offensive. I expressed my OPINION. It may not be right completly. But in my world it seems to be correct. I also tend to speak with hyperbole. I’m not an eloquent writer as some of you seem to be. I’m a nerd by definition with views formed form my own life experience. I worked married a woman that also was taught the same way I was taught. I also feel that many women, and men, in our society are led to believe that life should be a fairy tale and if it does not meet their expectations they have the right to make it so. The methods are temper tantrums, separation, divorce, withhold sex from spouse, abandonment, etc.

Please, if I’ve offended you over this topic, don’t be a fool and take it personally. I’m speaking in generalities for the sake of simplicity and its only MY opinion through experience and what I think I know. But I do have many years of experience in relationships as the product of 2 divorces of my parents as well as being played or marginalized by women and girls that wanted their knight in shining armor defined as wealthy, handsome and debonair.

A lot of what I write on certain subjects is a reflection of the pain in my own life. I’ve observed many people’s relationships because, frankly, I feared marriage and fatherhood for so many years. I do believe that if you don’t have that feeling of love in your life with your mate there is something objectively wrong. How I go about determining what causes it is my opinion only; however based on reading, observation and brain washing I’m sure.

So, LADIES, when I talk about relationships take what I say with a grain of salt. it’s the prudent thing to do even if it is my opinion, which should NEVER be questioned [this is sarcasm about my own ego trip that I feel I must point out since I’m not making myself clear ].

 

[angelic06]

I stand by my own statement, that love is both a choice and emotion…however, I would prefer that somebody choose to love me and vice versa than mere emotion. For God wants to be loved by people who really love Him, not merely by people who don’t want to go to hell.

Love which is purely an emotion is not love, that’s animal lust. And we are more than animals, are we not? Yes, you can care about someone and not have a real duty to them…such as if you see somebody lying in the street.

I cannot always pick how I feel, but I can pick how I act. (see my above post. I can’t really control how I feel right now, but I can choose not to act like a maniac.) I choose to continue to pray for my ex and her family that they may be blessed and comforted in their trials, without disturbing their peace in person. I choose this because I care enough about them. I choose this though I know she would prefer me to go away. I also pray for all kinds of people I do not really have any romantic feelings for.

The profession that I plan to go into assumes that I care enough about people that I would spend a relatively enormous time in education to go into the profession. If I did not care enough about people, then there would be plenty of 8-5 jobs available, almost for the asking. Instead, I take the additional training needed to get into the field when men and women in other fields about my age are earning plenty in their work without the extra burden of school. (I’m guessing that some people are wondering when I’ll become a real adult, since I’m way past the usual college age for my current level of training.)

Why? I care about others. Why? Because I choose to care. It’s not merely a feeling. Sometimes I wish my parents, the clergy of the church, my teachers taught me how to hate. But I care enough about God and about my neighbors that I press on.

When some lady buys me flowers, I’ll consider doing the same. I bought enough flowers, gifts, etc. without getting any in return.

(I will not apologize for this statement. It stands as it is.)

 

[LilyElain]

You’re taking everything out of context to my thoughts. Don’t get so doug gone legalistic. You’d make a good fundamentalist prooftexting everything others say.

You’ve missed the point. playing princess as an adult is NOT a good thing in case someone has failed to teach you otherwise. Many women desire to live a fantacy life filled will all the blessings theology it has to offer…servantc, diamonds, luxuries, love to the infinite degree [love used loosely and probably is more along the line of “worship”]. And based on your “taking offense” you’ve made this subject all about you…another symptom of a sickened society that has failed to form their consciences in line with Christ. I’m NOT trying to offend you. You’ve decided to “take offense” on your very own. I stated it the way I see it…and don’t care if you take offense to what I believe to be my own beliefs. My wife agrees with me and therefore in her dignity elevates herself up to a child of God, not of someone wishing to be worshiped. There is a significant difference between giving someone the ultimate respect by treating them as a person deserving dignity of the human person compared to worshiping the ground they walk on. The difference between lust and love is an example. Trying to make fairy tales be real is grossly immature and has not place in Christian life. The stories are cute and wonderful, some of them. But some people has elevated these ideas to idolatry. If you don’'t like my thoughts then go do some study on the subject before trying to refute everything someone says. Sin is an interesting thing you know. We become so enchanted by its luxurious feel good philosophy that we lose our way back to reality unless someone pulls the rug out form under our feet. This is one of the main reasons that there are so so SO many people seeking annulments in our American culture…

I do apologize for not taking the time to more accurately and meticulously write more clear with better language. I’m just too busy to do this at the moment. I also know that even if I did you’d not receive it well anyway. This will have to be your journey. I’ve figured this out already and is why I’m seeking to either join or start an apostolate of the laity to help people realize true happiness in the ordinary life, not some made up fantasy world that only could be real in fairy tales. Because of our understanding of marriage and and commitment to see beyond the surface we were asked to take over the diocese level Pre-Cana program along with other marriage preparation programs.

Oh, I was being halfway humorous…I am not that high maintenance kind of woman you talk about…I am just a bit, erm, Romantic shall we say… I am truly not that offended. I just think there are good lessons to be learned in the Original Fairy Tales (not Disney versions of them) and that young girls should not be discouraged from being feminine and lady like, we have enough to combat in this society already…
I have just been criticized heavily by people, females included, for being very feminine and girly…I just feel sometimes I was born in the wrong century is all…
I definitely agree that I am also a woman of God and that counts for more than anything…

 

[Havard]

I don’t even think there’s anything wrong with the Disney princesses. I don’t recall any of them demanding servants or jewels. Only the bad women in those movies did, like Cinderella’s step-sisters.

 

[The_Geographer]

Oh, I was being halfway humorous…I am not that high maintenance kind of woman you talk about…I am just a bit, erm, Romantic shall we say… I am truly not that offended. I just think there are good lessons to be learned in the Original Fairy Tales (not Disney versions of them) and that young girls should not be discouraged from being feminine and lady like, we have enough to combat in this society already…
I have just been criticized heavily by people, females included, for being very feminine and girly…I just feel sometimes I was born in the wrong century is all…
I definitely agree that I am also a woman of God and that counts for more than anything…EXACTLY

We’re raising my little girl to be a girly girl. In fact, we call her girler, a term coined by her 2 years ago. She plays princess all the time. When I think of someone playing princess I really means someone like the less nobler kinds. Cinderella, Snow White, Ariela, sleeping Beauty, Jasmine, Belle are among the ones my girls loves to play. Though these stories have much to offer, it seems that many of the girls I fell for wanted the money to go with it as well. That left me unable to marry. The irony is that the girl I fell for didn’t appreciate this as much as the money. Her father, a deacon, was stripped of his faculties. Her mom now attends Assembly of God churches as a replacement for the mass. Her younger sister committed suicide as well. The irony of all of this is that they put on a good show until it all fell apart. Thank God I didn’t marry into that messed up family. They were perfect from the outside but on the inside there were obviously so many problems. My point is don’t go by the feeling until you know there is a connection there. I do believe that a solid marriage can be achieved much like a celibate promise or vow. But it does help, and is preferred to have a bit of romance going on in the relationship. I’m a romantic person. I try to make my wife feel like a princess/queen. What makes our relationship work is that she doesn’t expect unrealistic things. So the little things I can afford and do she appreciates the way a woman of grace should.

 

[missyfatcat]

For those of you that seem to have taken my thought offensively.

Please stop taking my posts offensive. I expressed my OPINION. It may not be right completly. But in my world it seems to be correct. I also tend to speak with hyperbole. I’m not an eloquent writer as some of you seem to be. I’m a nerd by definition with views formed form my own life experience. I worked married a woman that also was taught the same way I was taught. I also feel that many women, and men, in our society are led to believe that life should be a fairy tale and if it does not meet their expectations they have the right to make it so. The methods are temper tantrums, separation, divorce, withhold sex from spouse, abandonment, etc.

So true with so many people these days. I’m sick of seeing/hearing women tell other married women to dump their husband because they “deserve better”.

 

[The_Geographer]

So true with so many people these days. I’m sick of seeing/hearing women tell other married women to dump their husband because they “deserve better”.

My own mother was one of those women. In fact, she taught younger women how to stab their husbands in the back…to ruin their lives. My wife and I walked in on many of her conversations over the phone and she shamelessly continued without apology for hours on end doing this. IN fact, my own mother told my wife that if I was the way I was with her how could she (my wife) not realize I would certainly do it to her. Fortunately, the pragmatic Protestant fundamentalist evangelical my wife was motivated her to tell my mom basically to kiss off and to never call her again without my presence or knowlege. Mom was a deeply disturbing person. She did the same thing to my brother’s marriage. Only they were trying to get a piece of the pie. I placed God above financial security and it brought me happiness instead of wealth.

 

[LongingForLight]

I agree with your mother, too. Love is a choice and a feeling. The loving choices we make help us feel love more, and the loving feelings we have help us make loving choices more easily and naturally, so we are less likely to act in an unloving fashion even if we are surprised or rushed (when our feelings are more likely to show). When Christ died on the cross, I absolutely believe he was feeling loving feelings for us - nothing so trite as “warm fuzzies”, but the deep abiding love that truly makes it easier to die for a loved one than to live without them. Christ has that deep love towards each and every one of us.

Sometimes, the greatest loving act we do for our spouses is to make our spouse easier to feel love for in our minds. By this, I mean doing things like meditating on their good traits, seeing how their weaknesses could be turned into strengths, focusing on their effort when their results are not good, and seeking the image of Christ within them. A truly loving spouse will choose to try to feel love, and not just act lovingly.

 

[TaraJoBean]

First of all, there is a huge misunderstanding going on. Love IS NOT a feeling. It may have outward benefits of emotions and feelings, but is not, by definition a feeling in itself. It is a tangent idea, not the definition.

They are not exclusionary of each other, but we must get the definition straight first. Just because love involves emotion does not mean it defines it.

Here is the catechism:

To will the good of the other, as I said already, is the definition of love. It may involve emotion and feeling, but the what love IS…is a choice.

Not to harp, but I this bothers me, I admit.

I think you may be looking over other passages on the same pages of the Catechism. The catechism also says:

“The principal passions are love and hatred, desire and fear, joy, sadness, and anger.” (1772)

And “The term ‘passions’ refers to the affections or the feelings. By his emotions man intuits the good and suspects evil.” (1771)

So we can see that love is a passion, according to the catechism, and passions are affections or “the feelings.” It seems to me that the two must be inseparable and combining these teachings, we could possibly use a definition of love like: “Love is the affection or feelings that move one to will the good of another.”

I think that the idea that you can love someone by “willing their good” and having zero affection / feeling / care for them is not only nonsensical, but dangerous because you are then talking about duty, and dutiful good works without any love are worthless.

Also, we cannot use “to will the good of another” as a stand-alone definition if we are to “Love God with all our heart, mind, and soul” like Jesus commanded. We cannot will God’s “good.” He is perfectly good and perfectly happy. I think to Love God with all our heart and all our mind and all our soul is to have a heart-felt affection for God which moves one to keep his commandments.

 

[agapewolf]

: “Love is the affection or feelings that move one to will the good of another.”

.

If that is your definition, then you have given permission for anyone to not stick with a marriage because they don’t have the feelings anymore to be in love with their spouse.

That is the whole point! Love is a decision, it HAS to be a decision. It cannot be a feeling.

If there is a point in a marriage that one might not have feelings for awhile, they still MUST choose to love. The death on the cross was a choice, he did not feel like doing that.

 

[samovila]

I’ve heard “Love is not an emotion” even from pastors before, and I completely disagree.

Sure, a choice comes in on whether to act on your feelings (and sometimes it’s best not to), but love IS and SHOULD be an emotion. What kind of love is it to marry someone, treat them nicely, etc, but not FEEL emotional love for them… to not FEEL broken-hearted if they should die young in an accident? If someone is not crying at their spouse’s funeral, wouldn’t we think “sheesh, apparently they didn’t love their spouse much” even if they said, “Oh, you misunderstand. I loved him very much… I did his laundry, we did things together, we had kids together, I chose every day to serve him. But love isn’t an emotion, ya know…” :ehh:

I think “Love is not an emotion” or “Love is a choice” is just a slogan with good intentions of perhaps causing people who say they love someone to ACT like it. And that is very good. Sometimes we need a kick in the pants to act on our love for someone (which usually increases our love of them as much as their love for us). But the “love is not an emotion” mentality is a dangerous one. Love that is pure choice and no emotion is no love at all… that’s duty.

I appreciate flowers that my husband gets me on my birthday because he feels LOVE for me. But I wouldn’t appreciate them much if he felt no affection for me but bought them for me out of duty. That kind of “love” is empty & worthless.

(Sorry if that sounded harsh! I was typing quickly, just trying to get my thoughts out. No offense, I hope.)

I read a while back that people who force themselves to smile even when they don’t “feel like it” are generally happier than people who just wait to feel happy enough to smile. Something about the mechanics of a smile that CAUSES us to be happy. I think love is the same in this regard. Choosing to perform loving acts CAUSES you to feel love for a person, as opposed to waiting for the feeling of love to drive you to perform loving acts. It is this that makes love a choice.

 

[samovila]

How lovely you are !
May God bless you and all those you love.

Thank you! You made my day!:heaven:

 

[angelic06]

“Heart felt affection”.

Well, then, I will burn in hell, since I don’t always have a “heart felt affection” for everyone I meet and consequently, according to this definition, I don’t really “love” a person, and consequently cannot fulfill the great commandments (according to this definition).

1. I canNOT always choose how I feel. That’s a matter of chemicals in my brain. I can’t control the chemicals in my brain. I CANNOT always choose how I feel, I will once more re-emphasize this.
2. I CAN, however, choose to perform acts of kindness for others and to consider themselves as human beings made in God’s image. I have to force myself at times to care about another person…but I have made the choice, even if it is not always my duty to go out of my way for a person.
3. Does that the fact that I don’t always have the touchy feely feelings for another person mean that I don’t really care for them?

I’ll answer, once more, NO.

In fact, I rise above my animal state by CHOOSING to care about another person than just going with my “feelings”. I can reason—animals cannot. I don’t always like my siblings, especially when they are in a sour mood. But I will defend them to the death if they come face to face with threats from the outside, whether they be intruders or animals. Why? Because I care about them…I love them truly, and I’ll add no disclaimers to this statement. I can CHOOSE to give consideration to another person and not just follow my plain old gut. I can CHOOSE not to act like an animal—is that not as worthy, if not more so, than a person who acts because they feel good (at the moment—that is, the chemicals in their brain made them feel good and consequently like “loving” another person) and the like?

I ask, once more, by God’s grace are we not more than the animals? Even animals have “feelings”…and with them they tear each other apart such that flesh no longer sticks to the bone and there is nothing reconizable in their bodies.

Tell me what you think of this:

“Love your enemies…” How can you love your enemies if your immediate feeling is to rip their throats out? How do you love them? The next statement Christ tells us gives us a clue; “Pray for those who persecute you”. Eventhough these are two different statements of Christ, they are related, and tells how we are to act: by actually acting (in this case, praying), instead of just having fleeting feelings (which are here today, and gone tomorrow).

Love without “feelings is…nonsensical”? I once more respectfully disagree that you have to have “feelings” to love another.

You tell us, what are we to do when we don’t have the “feelings” or “emotions” but we offer (and decide) to do good to another? Consider # 1) as posted above.

What then are we to say about persons with anti-social personality disorder, who supposedly are not in control of their feelings, but who do not go out killing, etc.? Are they incapable of loving another, if they choose to do good instead of evil? Have they not fulfilled the two great commandments by choosing to do good instead of evil? I propose that they have fulfilled the command to love, and even more so, since according to medical science they may not be able to have feelings, but in this case, they would act against their nature and actually do good rather than evil.

I (I don’t have ASPD) CAN’T always choose how the chemicals in my brain work. So, then, how am to fulfill the great commandments, if the chemicals in my head do not function well?

By rising above my animal state of “feelings”.

(I really do not wish for anyone to take offense at this, but I think I just had to reiterate my point once more. I only write this because you say that it is not only “nonsensical but dangerous” to not have feelings “and dutiful good works without love are meaningless”—I’ve have shown you that my feelings are not always in my control—is Christ asking us to do the impossible?----what is in my control, however, is my ability to rationally act, and by acting contrary to my animal feelings and the chemicals in my brain at the moment, can I not fulfill God’s will?)

 

[SMHW]

Not to harp, but I this bothers me, I admit.

I think you may be looking over other passages on the same pages of the Catechism. The catechism also says:

“The principal passions are love and hatred, desire and fear, joy, sadness, and anger.” (1772)

And “The term ‘passions’ refers to the affections or the feelings. By his emotions man intuits the good and suspects evil.” (1771)

So we can see that love is a passion, according to the catechism, and passions are affections or “the feelings.” It seems to me that the two must be inseparable and combining these teachings, we could possibly use a definition of love like: “Love is the affection or feelings that move one to will the good of another.”

Again, there are different levels or kinds of love. To will the good of another is the highest because it comes closest to bringing our emotions back in line with God’s intention for them prior to The Fall. Our erotic love and brotherly love are incredibly important but lessor forms of love.

One of the effects of original sin is that our feelings --passions if you will-- are no longer subject to our will as they were originally intended. So we experience feelings that our will did not command and we don’t always feel what our will would tell us to feel. We know this because we experience it all the time with our family and friends and especially with our spouses.

The highest form of love, agape love, is an act of the will which directs our actions (and our emotions) to seek the good of another. In other words, we can (theoretically anyway) have agape love for the man who raped and murdered our daughter even though it’s unlikely we’ll have the warm fuzzies for him.

Agape love is really not possible for us to have unless it comes to us from God. But all humans (some animals too, I think) can experience some of the lessor forms of love.

 

[The_Geographer]

Four kinds of love in Greek:

Affection (storge, στοργή)

Friendship (philia, φιλία)

Erotic (eros, ἔρως)

Charity (agapē, ἀγάπη)

Hopefully your relationship will migrate around these 4 different types of love, but the greatest of the is agape, the kind of love that God has for us, the kind that Christ shows for us.

 

[coolduude]

Four kinds of love in Greek:

Affection (storge, στοργή)

Friendship (philia, φιλία)

Erotic (eros, ἔρως)

Charity (agapē, ἀγάπη)

Hopefully your relationship will migrate around these 4 different types of love, but the greatest of the is agape, the kind of love that God has for us, the kind that Christ shows for us.

So which one of these is ‘marriage love’? Is marriage love a combination of all 4? Or is it one out of the 4?

 

[The_Geographer]

So which one of these is ‘marriage love’? Is marriage love a combination of all 4? Or is it one out of the 4?

Wouldn’t you think it includes all four in a healthy flourishing relationship?