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Shakuhachi
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Does it continue after birth. Do we still need to protect it and insure it has adequate health care?
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Rau
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Fascinated to see the reaction of the “pro-choice” advocates. Perhaps there will be none - the position of those advocates was not that the unborn are not living, just that it is permissible to kill them at mum’s request.
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Ender
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The title of the thread suggests that saying life begins at conception is simply an arbitrary assertion of the Trump administration, rather than an explicit acknowledgement of a scientific fact.
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Raxus
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That’s your opinion, and you’re very welcome to it.
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Raxus
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We do! Too bad the Obama administration never sought to do any of it. Maybe Trump will do better.
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Athrunzala
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very surprised that pro-abortion Catholics are also present here
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Shakuhachi
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As of today it sure doesn’t look like it.Shakuhachi:
We do! Too bad the Obama administration never sought to do any of it. Maybe Trump will do better.
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Raxus
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That’s your opinion, and you’re welcome to it.
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Ender
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There’s a rather significant distinction here that often gets lost. Some political issues, like abortion, and euthanasia, are moral issues as well. On these the church has declared that certain specific actions are always immoral.
Other issues, however, allow people to take contrary positions, and the church has no comment on specific proposals. Is universal health care a good idea? The church is silent. Is increasing the minimum wage a good idea? The church is silent. That is, she has nothing at all to say on the specific proposals made to resolve political issues. She gives general guidelines to inform our objectives, but says nothing directly applicable about how to achieve those goals. So while you may reject all of Trump’s proposals as foolish and harmful, it is not valid to claim they are contrary to church teaching.
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Shakuhachi
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You are right. Church teaching does not get into specifics on how to “protect low income people, as well as enact comprehensive reform for the sake of the most vulnerable.”
But our bishops are still worth listening to:
"President Trump signed an executive order yesterday intended to allow the sale of health insurance across state lines, and expanding certain insurance options and arrangements. The USCCB will closely monitor the implementation and impacts of this executive order by the relevant administrative agencies.
In general, robust options for people to obtain health coverage, as well as flexibility and approaches aimed at increased affordability, are important strategies in health care. However, in implementing this executive order, great care must be taken to avoid risk of additional harm to those who now receive health care coverage through exchanges formed under the Affordable Care Act.
Administration officials also confirmed that subsidies to insurers designed to help low income individuals afford insurance would be ending. This is of grave concern. The Affordable Care Act is, by no means, perfect, but as leaders attempt to address impending challenges to insurance market stability and affordability, they must not use people’s health care as leverage or as a bargaining chip. To do so would be to strike at the heart of human dignity and the fundamental right to health care. The poor and vulnerable will bear the brunt of such an approach.
Ultimately, this Executive Order ignores many more significant problems in the nation’s health care system. Congress must still act on comprehensive reform in order to provide a sustainable framework for health care, providing lasting solutions for the life, conscience, immigrant access, market stability, and underlying affordability problems that remain unaddressed."
www.usccb.org
But our bishops are still worth listening to:
"President Trump signed an executive order yesterday intended to allow the sale of health insurance across state lines, and expanding certain insurance options and arrangements. The USCCB will closely monitor the implementation and impacts of this executive order by the relevant administrative agencies.
In general, robust options for people to obtain health coverage, as well as flexibility and approaches aimed at increased affordability, are important strategies in health care. However, in implementing this executive order, great care must be taken to avoid risk of additional harm to those who now receive health care coverage through exchanges formed under the Affordable Care Act.
Administration officials also confirmed that subsidies to insurers designed to help low income individuals afford insurance would be ending. This is of grave concern. The Affordable Care Act is, by no means, perfect, but as leaders attempt to address impending challenges to insurance market stability and affordability, they must not use people’s health care as leverage or as a bargaining chip. To do so would be to strike at the heart of human dignity and the fundamental right to health care. The poor and vulnerable will bear the brunt of such an approach.
Ultimately, this Executive Order ignores many more significant problems in the nation’s health care system. Congress must still act on comprehensive reform in order to provide a sustainable framework for health care, providing lasting solutions for the life, conscience, immigrant access, market stability, and underlying affordability problems that remain unaddressed."
U.S. Bishops Chairman Expresses Concern, Calls for Careful Implementation of Health Care Executive Order
WASHINGTON—On October 13, President Trump signed an Executive Order on health care, and news about the Administration ending subsidies to insurers to help ...
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Ender
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Well, the more they expound on political issues the less they are worth listening to, and this is especially true of manifesto’s that emanate from the USCCB, which are as often as not merely the creations of their staffs. These are political statements, no more, no less. If they make a compelling argument they should be heeded, but the mere fact that random bishops attach their “me too” to them carries no meaning.
“No episcopal conference, as such, has a teaching mission; its documents have no weight of their own save that of the consent given to them by the individual bishops.” Cardinal Ratzinger
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Shakuhachi
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The Church has been political since the days of Jesus and has alway taken the needs of the poor and vulnerable as high priorities.
So in today’s political discussions and proposals those needs must be addressed.
I do not see that happening with this administration.
So in today’s political discussions and proposals those needs must be addressed.
I do not see that happening with this administration.
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Ender
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And I disagree. The point is, our disagreement is practical, not moral. It is a dispute over what is the best solution, not whether the problem should be addressed at all.
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Shakuhachi
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To me that seems short sighted and irresponsible. The practical results are quite evident when it comes to healthcare and effects on the most vulnerable. To close our eyes to those results with the excuse that the practical approaches are not moral issues seems to me disingenuous. “Sure, i care about the poor. I just dont think they need health coverage.”
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Shakuhachi
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Or abortion is a moral issue and should be outlawed but assisting new mothers and newborns are not public responsibilities.
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Shakuhachi
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Conveniently dismissive for you. Did you read the statement? Do you disagree with the rationale? How and Why?
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Ender
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The practical results of choosing Option A over Option B are rarely self evident; that’s what makes them political issues.
The argument is not about whether they should be helped but about what the best way is to do that. Really, this is just another “They want granny to eat dog food” charge.
Whether my claim is convenient for me or not, you didn’t question its accuracy. As for the statement, no, I didn’t read it. I’m traveling now and it’s not all that convenient, but I’ll be happy to read and comment on it. I’ve been speaking in general terms, but I’m sure I can use this document to illustrate my particular claim: that clergy should avoid political issues.
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Ender
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USCCB:
For such a short (four paragraph) statement there is a surprisingly large number of comments with which one can justifiably take exception. As I said, it is a thoroughly political statement that is indistinguishable from the tracts offered by explicitly political sources.
“Using health care” as a bargaining chip is a judgment about the intention behind the decision to end subsidies to insurance companies. Given that the Supreme Court ruled the subsidies for federal exchanges were unconstitutional makes this opinion seem a bit uncharitable. But it should be clear: it is no less a political judgment than if it was offered by the DNC.
Since providing health care is ultimately about how to get the most care for a cost that can be afforded, what exactly is “the fundamental right to health care”? The point being it is hard to understand as a fundamental right something that is fundamentally undefinable.
“The world will end tomorrow!!! The poor and vulnerable will suffer most.” Statements such as this are what helped kill parody.
I wonder that bishops aren’t ever reluctant to put their names on such whiny documents. This executive order is bad because…it is addressed to only one problem??? Really? Do people actually consider this a rational objection?
For such a short (four paragraph) statement there is a surprisingly large number of comments with which one can justifiably take exception. As I said, it is a thoroughly political statement that is indistinguishable from the tracts offered by explicitly political sources.
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Rau
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By “politics issues” you appear to mean “real-world” issues. Is it so wrong for the Bishops to illuminate the nexus between moral principles and real-world issues, even if we agree their statements don’t have the same force as a church teaching on abortion?
I agree they might make a poor statement. But the question is whether they should refrain from the statements of the kind I describe generically above.
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