Trump calls out Biden on religion

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I can’t even wrap my head around the lunacy of the comparison you’re trying to make
Yes, that is the point. You offered an analogy to voting, I offered one to gun ownership. The first supports women voting: the gun example does not support shooting people.

Abortion is more like gun rights than voting rights. If you can support gun rights, and not support shooting people, it is possible to support abortion rights without supporting abortion. Abortion is not like voting in that respect.

You have defined abortion as murder, which keeps you from seeing the rights of the mother. I define guns as shooting people, which keeps me from seeing other uses.

If the government can intervene to force a pregnancy to term, the government can intervene far less intrusively to keep you from owning a gun.
 
If you can support gun rights, and not support shooting people, it is possible to support abortion rights without supporting abortion.
This analogy fails.
Abortion rights only lead to abortion.

Gun rights lead to self defense…or hunting…or target shooting…or collecting.

There can be no reasonable comparison between abortion and gun rights.
 
There are different methods to treat tubal pregnancies. Some are direct abortions, those are immoral.

Removal of the part of the tube is not a direct abortion.

The word direct is very key.
 
I say this with sadness, but too many of us are morally and spiritually lost, and as such, we’re just not capable of electing a person who does not reflect that lostness. Such a person would never get the votes.
This is the real issue. Although, I would think we could do a little better than Trump or Biden. What pains me the most is that I have very good evangelical friends who hold Trump up as some kind of gold standard. When Trump said that he could kill a man on 5th Avenue, and his base wouldn’t care, he was spot on. And yet when I look at the other side, I see a fast track to Communism.

@meltzerboy2 you made some good points I hadn’t considered
 
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As it’s been hinted at, I’ll go ahead and reveal my position: that the intercontinental city-killers are fully immoral and should cease to exist.

They ought to be limited to 1 or 2 megatons.
For the record, I should note that the Minuteman III warhead has a yield of about 170 kilotons. The Minuteman-I ICBM’s had a yield of about 1.2 megatons. Also, I think that the latest generation of missiles are no longer MIRV’d, by treaty. Most likely, targeting strategy is not against cities, but counterforce targetng against hardened military targets. (For example, it is unlikely that a hardened Minuteman silo in a remote area of the Dakotas could be destroyed except by a direct groundburst of over 200 kt yield.)
 
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I’m not sure how anyone can “hurt the Bible”, …
I think “hurt the Bible” means to hamper (to moderate or limit the effect or full exercise of) the Biblical truth. In other words, to give scandal (bad example) to the morally weak.
 
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This is a description of Catholic Theocracy, no matter how much you deny it.
It is a description of a Protestant fundamentalist theocracy.
…possibly even less educated, the fundamentalist Christians in the “red states”,
I mentioned this earlier, and that Catholic may not like the resulting anti-Catholic sentiment and was scoffed at. Yet, here this rises again. The ghost of Al Smith may return in campaign rhetoric once again.
 
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If we can leave the Fifth Century and fast forward to the Twentieth, we read in Dignitatis Humanae, " This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom."
Was DH defending the rights of religious people to follow their consciences, for instance, under totalitarian regimes that would try to keep them from embracing their chosen religion (USSR, China, North Korea), or did DH say (in so many words) “we’re not really serious about this ‘one true Church’ business, pick whatever religion you feel like is best”? Quite a difference. And Catholic doctrine cannot contradict itself.
It is not necessarily a ‘blind spot’; it might also be a part of one’s religious teaching. Likewise, you might not consider it murder to defend yourself or your country during wartime; however, a Quaker might consider this murder, not believing in a just-war doctrine in the same way as you do. Thus in Judaism, abortion is sometimes justified, not only to save the life of the mother, but also to save the life of a healthy unborn baby who is being threatened by an unhealthy unborn baby. There are other leniencies which permit abortion according to Jewish teaching, as well as other religious teaching. The issue is not so cut-and-dried as it is in Catholicism. Further, there may be some religion that goes even further in banning abortion than Catholicism. That is, if a religion banned the unintentional killing of the unborn baby, which Catholicism does NOT do, that religion would consider the Catholic position of “passive” killing to be murder. You would not agree, but your position is based on your religious belief, not theirs. This is why, I believe, abortion must be decided according to the moral and religious beliefs of the mother, her family, and her religion, not according to one specific religious teaching. To me, abortion is a component of religious freedom. It is not only a matter of women’s rights but women’s religious rights.
You make an excellent point, and I am aware — correct me if I’m wrong — that traditional Judaism not only allows the life of the baby to be taken to save the mother, where a choice has to be made, but it actually requires this. Yes, different religions teach different things.
 
But let’s come at this from a slightly different angle. Let’s say there is a religion that has, as one of its rites or sacraments, human sacrifice. Its adherents really believe in this. They think it’s a good thing. Do we just sit back and say “well, we can’t make a law against this, we can’t call it murder in the legal sense, because that is part of their religion, and they need to be free to practice their religion”. Or let’s say that another religion practices ritual child abuse. Are we okay with that? The latter actually exists — it’s called female mutilation. If that is outlawed, why is it outlawed? It’s part of their religion, or it might be more accurate to say, it’s part of their culture, but has some religious or quasi-religious aspect. Or let’s take the Jehovah’s Witnesses. One of their children will die without a blood transfusion. Do we just stand back and say “uh-oh, can’t interfere, it’s a question of religious freedom”? That’s how faithful Catholics see abortion — “no, you might not think it’s wrong, but we see it for what it is, it is murder, and we’re not going to let you get by with it, if we can possibly help it, and we’re going to do everything in our power to make it a crime”.
It’s not a theocratic government to have the laws of a nation formed under the guidance of the churches teachings to prohibit evil from becoming enshrined in law and given legitimacy.
And that’s precisely what the United States has done, up until about fifty years ago. Was this acceptable because Protestants made the laws? And why would it be unacceptable if Catholics constituted a super-majority?
This is a description of Catholic Theocracy, no matter how much you deny it. It may not be what you intended, but you paint a picture of anti-Catholic rhetoric being fulfilled. It is the logic you are using here. “Until we were strong enough, Catholics could not force morality on others. Now we should.”
Well, where morality intersects the legal sphere, yes, you’re going to see the moral sensibilities of the majority be reflected in the laws of the state, especially where it is a question of ensuring the rights of people other than the actor. Paul Blanshard et al were not entirely wrong, to predict that a Catholic majority would result in at least some acts, contrary to Catholic morality, becoming crimes as well. Have not this country’s laws, at least up until recent years, broadly reflected a Protestant moral sense? And was that acceptable, or was that not acceptable?
 
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Dovekin:
This is a description of Catholic Theocracy, no matter how much you deny it.
It is a description of a Protestant fundamentalist theocracy.
…possibly even less educated, the fundamentalist Christians in the “red states”,
I mentioned this earlier, and that Catholic may not like the resulting anti-Catholic sentiment and was scoffed at. Yet, here this rises again. The ghost of Al Smith may return in campaign rhetoric once again.
I wasn’t the one scoffing at you. Yes, the “Al Smith” conversation may take place once again, in a different format. Maybe it should. Maybe it will be flipped on its head — “your church teaches that abortion is murder, you claim to be a faithful Catholic, this is murder we’re talking about, why aren’t you willing to try to outlaw it, you don’t have to be a Catholic to know that, there are Christians and others in this country who believe the same thing, do you accept what your church teaches about human life, or do you not, and if not, when do you think human life is worthy of legal protection?”.

Chuck Todd on NBC’s Meet The Press would do a masterful job of skewering Biden along these very lines. He’s good at that kind of thing.
 
No ones talking about establishing a theocracy. To my knowledge there has never been a country which established a catholic theocracy with the exception of the Vatican/Papal States, and I think the Papal States are even a stretch.

It’s not a theocratic government to have the laws of a nation formed under the guidance of the churches teachings to prohibit evil from becoming enshrined in law and given legitimacy.
How would you guide a government in matters such as contraception, ssm, sex outside marriage, divorce etc?
 
Watch what the dems tried to get into the relief bill

 
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If that line of questioning is good for abortion why wouldn’t it be good for divorce, church on sunday or any number of things that the church teaches? No Catholic would ever be elected. JFK was questioned about bringing catholic doctrine to the White House.

Precisely why we have separation of church and state. Imagine if we elected a person and while in office decided to become, name any extreme religion and then by law or executive order tried to impose their new found religious beliefs on the populace. I am certain most would find that objectionable.
 
And Catholic doctrine cannot contradict itself.
Who said there was a contradiction? I am saying that the extent to which a Catholic theocracy is a doctrine is rather overblown by removing documents from their historical context, similar to the way the Galileo controversy is misunderstood, or the idea that the Mass cannot change.
 
If that line of questioning is good for abortion why wouldn’t it be good for divorce, church on sunday or any number of things that the church teaches? No Catholic would ever be elected. JFK was questioned about bringing catholic doctrine to the White House.

Precisely why we have separation of church and state. Imagine if we elected a person and while in office decided to become, name any extreme religion and then by law or executive order tried to impose their new found religious beliefs on the populace. I am certain most would find that objectionable.
Because practically all cultures and religions are agreed that murder is wrong, and murder violates the most fundamental human life — the right to life — of another human being. Not all sins should be illegal, least of all private sins, but murder is something else entirely.
 
your church teaches that abortion is murder, you claim to be a faithful Catholic,
There is an answer for that, though it is not one that I agree with. The Church also teaches that homosexuality, no-fault divorce, and contraception are wrong. In a country where this is the minority opinion, such a ban on these three would not happen, and may not be wise if it were to happen. The opinion of the American people needs to lead the legislation enacted. That is why I believe removing pro-life hypocrisy is the first step to change the debate on abortion, which might in a generation of two allow for the value of children to again be embraced.
 
Yes most all agree that murder is wrong. However how many give rights or personhood, required for murder, to the unborn.

Very few world wide ban abortion all together. Even Italy where the seat of our church is and where 80 to 90 percent of the population is Catholic or christian it is legal.

So explain how the USA is supposed to suddenly give the unborn rights of the citizen. Explain how any president is going to accomplish this task.
 
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