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FrankFletcher
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Or flies to garbage.
Trump calls out Biden on religion
- Thread starter HomeschoolDad
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He could always come back and say “no, I don’t understand that much about Christianity, but I understand enough to know that abortion is murder, and that’s more than pro-choice people understand”.
I like Brian Carroll and the ASP, and I have not totally ruled out voting for him.
The exceptions you cite are a blind spot with many people. But I can live with people being against 99% of all abortions, as far better than people being against no abortions.
I’m not optimistic that, barring a mass conversion of the American people to orthodox Catholicism, abortions at the very beginning of pregnancy — including abortifacient birth control (abortion is abortion) — will ever be made illegal. Unless people are either orthodox Catholics, or very conservative non-Catholic Christians who are willing to take literally “life begins at conception”, people tend to have a hazy notion of a newly conceived entity being a human life whose extinguishing would be murder.
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adamhovey1988
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You make an interesting point. But somehow, i think heterodox Catholics want to remain heterodox.
Yes.HomeschoolDad:
But well - the God allows people to do the same things and even more evil. God gave the people the free will, responsibility, beatitudes and commandments and advices and the Church sacraments and the example of saints. God gave all that to the people, but God gave also free will and God allows to kill unborn. It is the choice of man. And I am sure, that noone is willing to take this choice, noone is happy about the worst outcome, but still - God gave people this choice.
So - you are advocating that people should take this choice away?
Someone has to stand up for the unborn. They can’t stand up for themselves.
Yes, but it couldn’t hurt anything, to induce in them the vaguely uncomfortable feeling that there is something wrong with their heterodoxy. Doubts once planted often take root and grow.HomeschoolDad:
You make an interesting point. But somehow, i think heterodox Catholics want to remain heterodox.
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arvo
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arvo:
HomeschoolDad:
Then bring that out. Put Biden in the position of saying “you really don’t understand religion, and if you did, you’d understand that women should be able to end their pregnancies at will”. Then Trump can come back and say “okay, granted, I don’t know a lot, but I know enough, to know abortion is murder — and you don’t”.HomeschoolDad:
It seems like he claims to understand a lot about Christianity as he has a lot of support among so-called Christians.
Then by that reasoning, we should never defend anyone from being killed, harmed, or suffering injustice, because “God stands for them”. Sorry, can’t follow you there.
They’re certainly not for the children whose abortion they are willing to see happen.
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FiveLinden
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Is he? In Catholic terms? Isn’t his opposition to later, surgical abortions and not to the earlier, medical abortions equally strongly opposed by the Church? Does he oppose Plan B?
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arvo
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I just want to say that there are different means for protecting the different things.
It is very easy to protect people from being killed or harmed because if you save already live human being from some evil then you can just let go this people and live on. He or she definitely had previous life with means of survival, of acquired education, of job etc.
But if you save the unborn child from abortion then you MUST take care of his/her life, education, healthcare, family protection, his body and soul. You can not just bring newborn child out of the womb and put it nowhere or let he/she go where his/her eyes are directed.
I want to say that there are different solutions for fighting abortion and the social security, the educational opportunities, the safe life-path ahead is the most enabling tools why someone can decide to keep and rise child with love and care that every child requires and is eligible for.
That is why I am against the simplistic approach and against labels here.
This is the virtue of wisdom and rationality.
I am not sure that every child that is saved from abortion, is living happy live and is not taken aback and is’t experiencing unnecessary hardships.
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Pitcairn17
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The word you’re looking for is “prop.”VonDerTann:
It’s the truth.
Hmmm, then why did he stand in front of that church with a bible if he doesn’t believe it?
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ZemD
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This is a sick statement. Better to kill someone then let them experience hardship in life? By that line of thought it would most compassionate to end every human life everywhere. Sickening.
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VonDerTann
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You’re the one who said I have “issues.” So the “issue” is that I’m angry?
I’d prefer “disgusted”: Disgusted to get called names; disgusted at the constant anti-Trump viciousness displayed by Catholics; disgusted by people who excuse their namecalling as “uhh…I speak the truth!”
I’m out. Go congratulate yourself on speaking so much truth.
I’d prefer “disgusted”: Disgusted to get called names; disgusted at the constant anti-Trump viciousness displayed by Catholics; disgusted by people who excuse their namecalling as “uhh…I speak the truth!”
I’m out. Go congratulate yourself on speaking so much truth.
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dscath
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Trying to think of something even more disgusting, but I’m sure POTUS will not disappoint me!
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arvo
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Thanks for note. Yes, I feel that my stance in this sentence was somehow sick and it is sick. I am sorry about that. But sometimes it is too much to see people in poverty, to see children in wastebins looking for food as if it is normal. When we are considering abortion we should take it this into account.arvo:
This is a sick statement. Better to kill someone then let them experience hardship in life? By that line of thought it would most compassionate to end every human life everywhere. Sickening.
Well - maybe the prohibition of abortion is really the solution. But this prohibition should go with MANDATORY and state provided care system for every child. Without such system… omg how much suffering is being created!
Yes, and that would give Trump an excellent opportunity to confess his sins publicly and manifest repentance for them.HomeschoolDad:
That would be an interesting exchange. Maybe Biden can explain the birds and the bees and that sex outside of wedlock results in most abortions in the US and then ask Trump about his sexual relations outside of wedlock and whether they caused any abortions.
His pro-life stance seems to be pretty unalloyed, with allowance for the “hard case” exceptions that virtually everyone except orthodox Catholics makes the same allowance for. I would appreciate knowing which Christian denominations take a pro-life stance identical to that of the Catholic Church.HomeschoolDad:
Is he? In Catholic terms? Isn’t his opposition to later, surgical abortions and not to the earlier, medical abortions equally strongly opposed by the Church? Does he oppose Plan B?
The general scientific consensus is that Plan B is not abortifacient. Not defending its use (except possibly in cases of rape), just stating the consensus. Women don’t fall pregnant “just-like-that”, within a matter of hours after the act. It can’t happen that fast.
Catholic moral theology treats unborn human life, even at its earliest stages, as an “already live human being”. Saving an unborn human life — or any human life — and providing for its temporal welfare, is a good thing, but it cannot be the condition of whether we save that life or not. Try to imagine a mother who is ready to kill her 3-year-old child (or 80-year-old grandmother) because she can’t afford to provide for their health and welfare, and that in some alternate reality, such killing is legal. She says “if you will take on the obligation of providing for them, I won’t kill them, but if you won’t take on that obligation, I will kill them”. What is that but extortion and blackmail? And if we say “no, we’re not going to help you, that’s not our responsibility”, and they go ahead and kill the infant or elder, is it any less murder?
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It is entirely possible to be religious and pro-life, and to wish that the Second Amendment didn’t exist. (The right to keep and bear arms would still exist in common law — 2A just recognized it.) Personally, I think 2A and RKBA are one thing the United States got right, and nobody else did.
It takes a person of much integrity and humility to make a statement such as this, and I applaud you for it. None of us get it exactly right all the time. Goes with that thing called “thinking”. I, too, would like to see our society do much more for the poor than it does.
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Freddy
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It might be worth pointing out that the GOP isn’t obliged to pick Trump as the Republican nominee. I think I’m on safe ground in saying that any Republican would be anti-abortion. Which means that Republicans (and a lot of people here) consider Trump to be the best available person for the job.Thbolt:
Then bring that out. Put Biden in the position of saying “you really don’t understand religion, and if you did, you’d understand that women should be able to end their pregnancies at will”. Then Trump can come back and say “okay, granted, I don’t know a lot, but I know enough, to know abortion is murder — and you don’t”.HomeschoolDad:
It seems like he claims to understand a lot about Christianity as he has a lot of support among so-called Christians.
That’s what those on the ouside looking in cannot get their heads around.
There were a couple of comedians on the ABC here in Australia who did a weekly satirical look at the current political topic at the time. It took the form of a 3 minute interview, Dawe being the interviewer and Clarke being the interviewee (usually a politician). Brutally funny.
You literally could have taken the transcript of Trumps interview with Jonathan Swan (an Aussie as it turns out) and had Clarke and Dawe play it out and you would not know it was a factual interview. It would have played out as satire.
And this is the best guy for the job?
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QContinuum
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Who in their right mind would dispute this? Trump fights dirty even when he doesn’t have to. It’s his modus operandi.
I can think of many Republicans I would rather see as the nominee, besides Trump. I was very impressed with Mike Pence the other day on TV — I’d never really listened to him speak before. Much more articulate than I expected. Others that come to mind, just off the top of my head, Rand Paul, Bobby Jindal, Nikki Haley, Marco Rubio, (maybe) Lindsey Graham, Mike Huckabee, Ted Cruz (I’d have to think about that one)… I’m sure there are more.
But he’s what we’ve got. Far from perfect, but he was electable once, and maybe he’ll be electable again. But whether he wins or loses, if he could put Biden’s feet to the fire, and let Biden explain to the American people how, in his eyes, being a faithful Catholic is compatible with ensuring abortion choice (in some form) all the way up to the ninth month of pregnancy, more power to both of them. I’d like to see the issue put front and center. Trump’s not the one trying to reconcile Christianity and abortion choice — that would be Mr Biden.
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mythbuster1
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Do they even have a candidate?
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