Trump Thread

[queenofheartscv]

What’s the legal difference between abortion and other forms of murder? The article Abyssinia cited lays it out very clearly.

Personally, I’m not against some form of education or yes, even some kind of punishment. The specifics of which I’m not prepared to lay out. However, I’m more than willing to defer on this stance to one of mercy, and accept the wisdom of people in the pro-life movement with more experience.

What I take issue with is the pro-choice attack of the mercy extended by pro-lifers to the mothers, when they simultaneously accuse them of being judgmental and caring only about the child. It’s disingenuous and smacks more of justification to me. Perhaps that is uncharitable.

Some of this reminds me of accusations that God didn’t condemn slavery, or polygamy and such. He really was just forbearing it. The pro-life movement is forbearing the punishment called on for abortion, because a very influential part of the society champions it, and many people are swept along. It’s normal. And who’s to say that we, collectively, won’t suffer some punishment for it?

We can’t win in the pro-choice mindset, so we’ll keep extending God’s love and mercy.

This is a really good explanation of the concept of mercy on the issue. It’s very helpful. I think you’ve made the case very convincing to not punish women for abortion. I hope this kind of argument is the reason behind trump’s reversal or clarification on the issue. It makes a lot of sense.

 

[Little_Sheep]

Just because the Supreme Court claims something in their majority ruling such as in the case of Roe v Wade, right to privacy, doesn’t mean they can’t be wrong. They are not infallible. A ruling from the court doesn’t mean it’s right morally and plenty of people dispute the claim of a right to privacy on a constitutional basis.

Heck no, I don’t believe that the Supreme Court can’t be wrong! Of course they can be wrong - they are human beings.

But I believe in the wisdom and justice of Roe v. Wade. I believe it is not going anywhere in my lifetime and the lifetimes of my children and grandchildren.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Heck no, I don’t believe that the Supreme Court can’t be wrong! Of course they can be wrong - they are human beings.

But I believe in the wisdom and justice of Roe v. Wade. I believe it is not going anywhere in my lifetime and the lifetimes of my children and grandchildren.

I hope for the sake of mothers, fathers, children, born and unborn, that you are wrong in regards to Roe v Wade not going anywhere for that time, and I hope you are not going have missing members of your own family, due to the horror of abortion.

 

[Peter_J]

FWIW, I feel exactly the same way.

I think that one could have been prefaced with “This will shock you but …”

Kidding (sort of).

 

[Thorolfr]

Murder is a deliberate act to kill a human being, a person. The issue with abortion is, is many women have been misled by various sources, many probably don’t understand or know that they are killing a human being, sadly. So I don’t think the law would view them as the same as murderers who set out to kill somebody that they know for sure is alive and a human being.

Try and find a single case of a woman tried and convicted for murder for getting an illegal abortion before Roe v Wade.

The belief that an abortion at all stages of development is the “killing of a human being” is nevertheless a religious belief. It all depends on when someone believes that a fertilized egg become a “human being” or a “baby”. Is something which at four weeks old is about the size of a poppy seed and has no heart or brain already a “human being” or a “baby”? Does it have a soul and how could this even be demonstrated? The answers to this for Catholics are based on Church teachings with which others, even other Christians, might not agree.

 

[JimG]

Why the States did not prosecute women for abortion prior to Roe v Wade.

“Why did the states target abortionists and treat women as a victim of the abortionist?
It was based on three policy judgments: the point of abortion law is effective enforcement against abortionists, the woman is the second victim of the abortionist, and prosecuting women is counterproductive to the goal of effective enforcement of the law against abortionists.”
…
“The irony is that, instead of states prosecuting women, the exact opposite is true. To protect their own hide, it was abortionists (like the cult hero and abortionist Ruth Barnett when Oregon last prosecuted her in 1968), who, when they were prosecuted, sought to haul the women they aborted into court. As a matter of criminal evidentiary law, if the court treated the woman as an accomplice, she could not testify against the abortionist, and the case against the abortionist would be thrown out.”

It is those on the pro-abortion side of the debate who state that women must be punished. It helps their cause. Pro-abortionists for punishing women.

 

[JimG]

The belief that an abortion at all stages of development is the “killing of a human being” is nevertheless a religious belief. It all depends on when someone believes that a fertilized egg become a “human being” or a “baby”. Is something which at four weeks old is about the size of a poppy seed and has no heart or brain already a “human being” or a “baby”? Does it have a soul and how could this even be demonstrated? The answers to this for Catholics are based on Church teachings with which others, even other Christians, might not agree.

It is not a religious belief at all. It’s a biological fact. A human being is an individual member of the human species. A new individual of the human species has his or her beginning at conception, and that human individual remains a distinct human being through all stages of life until death, whether that occurs prenatally or at 90 years of age. Human beings have a beginning (conception), a development stage proceeding in the womb and then through babyhood, toddlerhood, teenage years, adult, and old age.

There is no biological mystery about when a new human being begins. It is at conception. Any other point is arbitrary. We might say it is age 2 or age 16, or any other point, but that would be incorrect. We know when a human being begins.

 

[Thorolfr]

the woman is the second victim of the abortionist

Isn’t this a kind of put down of women? It makes it sound as if women who have abortions are not very bright and are easily misled by abortionists. It treats them like children rather than adults who are responsible for their actions.

Trump, of course, changed his approach to this issue after he got his act together and said, “The woman is a victim in this case as is the life in her womb.”

But as Ruth Marcus said in the Washington Post, “Poor woman, too weak or emotional to know what is in her best interest, or to be held legally responsible for her choice.”

 

[josie_L]

As this source says;

“only abortion has decades of legal recognition and social celebration as a constitutional right, and pervasive misinformation about what its victim is—a propaganda campaign backed by a powerful industry, influential advocacy groups, forces at every level of government, one of America’s two main political parties, and scores of wide-ranging voices in our media, education establishment, and popular culture. It’s entirely appropriate to consider how pervasively abortion seekers have been misled for so long when deciding whether to punish them.”

Murder is a deliberate act to kill a human being, a person. The issue with abortion is, is many women have been misled by various sources, many probably don’t understand or know that they are killing a human being, sadly. So I don’t think the law would view them as the same as murderers who set out to kill somebody that they know for sure is alive and a human being.

Try and find a single case of a woman tried and convicted for murder for getting an illegal abortion before Roe v Wade.

Completely on point!

 

[TMC]

Isn’t this a kind of put down of women? It makes it sound as if women who have abortions are not very bright and are easily mislead by abortionists. It treats them like children rather than adults who are responsible for their actions.

Trump, of course, changed his approach to this issue after he got his act together and said, “The woman is a victim in this case as is the life in her womb.”

But as Ruth Marcus said in the Washington Post, “Poor woman, too weak or emotional to know what is in her best interest, or to be held legally responsible for her choice.”

Its that and worse. It is either a shameless political calculation willfully disregarding murder to get a political outcome; or it is an implicit admission that abortion is not really murder. I think for most it is the second, although clearly for some it is the first.

 

[JimG]

Isn’t this a kind of put down of women? It makes it sound as if women who have abortions are not very bright and are easily misled by abortionists. It treats them like children rather than adults who are responsible for their actions.

Trump, of course, changed his approach to this issue after he got his act together and said, “The woman is a victim in this case as is the life in her womb.”

But as Ruth Marcus said in the Washington Post, “Poor woman, too weak or emotional to know what is in her best interest, or to be held legally responsible for her choice.”

Maybe you should read some of the stories of women who have had abortions. There are many of them on the Silent No More website. Here is one example:

silentnomoreawareness.org/testimonies/testimony.aspx?ID=3507

 

[Crossbones]

Its that and worse. It is either a shameless political calculation willfully disregarding murder to get a political outcome; or it is an implicit admission that abortion is not really murder. I think for most it is the second, although clearly for some it is the first.

I think it’s more a remnant of the pre-70s attitude that women aren’t smart enough to make their own decisions.

 

[TCEL]

Isn’t this a kind of put down of women? It makes it sound as if women who have abortions are not very bright and are easily mislead by abortionists. It treats them like children rather than adults who are responsible for their actions.

Trump, of course, changed his approach to this issue after he got his act together and said, “The woman is a victim in this case as is the life in her womb.”

But as Ruth Marcus said in the Washington Post, “Poor woman, too weak or emotional to know what is in her best interest, or to be held legally responsible for her choice.”

Yep. This is usually the next point brought up. “It’s demeaning to women to treat them like a victim…”

Actually, to a point I agree. There are women who are incredibly casual about their abortions. Women actually are intelligent. However, there are many who are haunted by it, and I mean haunted. If the cultural tide was against abortion, they may not have gone through with it. Are they weak for being suggestible? No.

This is what frustrates me. I’m younger than thirty. Sex is pushed. Abortion is the back-up. I think it’s negligent to overlook, or even approve of, the cultural forces that prop up abortion, and then paint pro-lifers as playing the victim-card for women. One creates the circumstances, and then blames the person who lives up to them. Just because the left uses this line of reasoning doesn’t actually mean it never happens.

 

[josie_L]

I would prefer that people take logically and morally consistent positions. How can you call a woman a baby murderer and then say she should not face any criminal prosecution? If abortion is murder, treat it like murder. If you don’t want to treat it like murder, then admit its not the same as murder.

I reminded of the story of the female adulterer in the Bible and how she was saved from being stoned by Jesus, even though according to Jewish law that was the prescribed punishment.

p.s. The pro-life movement is about saving lives, but it is ALSO about PROMOTING Truth and extending mercy to those in need of it (especially those caught up in an evil they do not even recognize as such). Moreover, I would hardly expect people to listen to us (pro-lifers), if we were shouting at women contemplating abortion as “baby murderers”, i.e., it is not the modus operandi of the pro-life movement.

Woodley later became a licensed therapist and founded Restoring the Heart Ministries, an organization dedicated to helping people heal from traumas, including abortion, according to the report. She also spends time praying outside the abortion business that she once supported as a volunteer spokeswoman.

“I know it sounds crazy, I feel like God is calling me to the heart of the battle,” she said. “I can say I used to work for Planned Parenthood, and I can go in a tender, loving way and talk to the abortionist.”

Pro-lifers like Woodley have been changing the hearts of expecting moms as well as abortion clinic workers in the past few years. The 40 Days for Life Campaign reports 127 abortion clinic workers have quit during its peaceful, prayerful campaigns.

lifenews.com/2016/03/29/this-former-planned-parenthood-volunteer-now-prays-outside-the-same-abortion-clinic/

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Isn’t this a kind of put down of women? It makes it sound as if women who have abortions are not very bright and are easily misled by abortionists. It treats them like children rather than adults who are responsible for their actions.

Trump, of course, changed his approach to this issue after he got his act together and said, “The woman is a victim in this case as is the life in her womb.”

But as Ruth Marcus said in the Washington Post, “Poor woman, too weak or emotional to know what is in her best interest, or to be held legally responsible for her choice.”

Most of them know exactly what they’re doing.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Heck no, I don’t believe that the Supreme Court can’t be wrong! Of course they can be wrong - they are human beings.

But I believe in the wisdom and justice of Roe v. Wade. I believe it is not going anywhere in my lifetime and the lifetimes of my children and grandchildren.

I don’t feel Roe v Wade is going anywhere anytime soon, either.

 

[Little_Sheep]

I think it’s more a remnant of the pre-70s attitude that women aren’t smart enough to make their own decisions.

Clearly, we’re not. Let’s allow Donald Trump to make this decision for us…shall we?

slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/03/30/fyi_donald_trump_women_are_already_punished_for_seeking_abortions.html

Hello, Punishment…Thy Name is Man.

 

[josie_L]

I don’t feel Roe v Wade is going anywhere anytime soon, either.

In the mean time, abortion clinics are closing down, and more and more people are coming to the conclusion that abortion is evil and becoming pro-life (the power of prayers).

 

[Little_Sheep]

In the mean time, abortion clinics are closing down, and more and more people are coming to the conclusion that abortion is evil and becoming pro-life (the power of prayers).

Both sides are all about reducing abortion as an option women sometimes face.

Surely, we could find common ground on that desire.

 

[Peter_J]

Why the States did not prosecute women for abortion prior to Roe v Wade.

“Why did the states target abortionists and treat women as a victim of the abortionist?
It was based on three policy judgments: the point of abortion law is effective enforcement against abortionists, the woman is the second victim of the abortionist, and prosecuting women is counterproductive to the goal of effective enforcement of the law against abortionists.”
…
“The irony is that, instead of states prosecuting women, the exact opposite is true. To protect their own hide, it was abortionists (like the cult hero and abortionist Ruth Barnett when Oregon last prosecuted her in 1968), who, when they were prosecuted, sought to haul the women they aborted into court. As a matter of criminal evidentiary law, if the court treated the woman as an accomplice, she could not testify against the abortionist, and the case against the abortionist would be thrown out.”

It is those on the pro-abortion side of the debate who state that women must be punished. It helps their cause. Pro-abortionists for punishing women.

I completely agree about the importance of noting that, even before Roe v Wade (way before in fact) women who had had abortions weren’t prosecuted. (And I definitely think the whole abortion-laws-equal-punishing-the-mothers line from Trump and many Dems is downright ridiculous.) I would just add that it’s also important to consider current prosecutions. See e.g. Santorum: Planned Parenthood Should Be Prosecuted for Illegal Partial-Birth Abortions