Trump Uses Mount Rushmore Speech to Deliver Divisive Culture War Message

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OK, now he denigrates Democrats, and renews his attack on the media and the educational institutions to boot.
Just as a curiosity, as there were riots in multiple cities, how many of those cities had a Republican majority on the city council? And how many had a Democratic majority? Let’s talk real world numbers before we talk “denigrating Democrats”.

And while we are doing numbers of cities with riots, how many were either Republican or Democrat and moved rapidly to bring rioting to a halt?
 
From Forbes:

"During his speech, Trump derided a “new far-left fascism,” although he has referred to “Antifa” several times in his presidency. “Antifa” is supposed to stand for “anti-fascist.” Fascism is typically anti-liberal and anti-socialist, exclusionary, and nationalistic — it is known as a far-right phenomenon. For Trump to say that there is a “far-left” form of “fascism” means that he is contradicting himself, and supposedly railing against people that he now believes are simultaneously fascist and anti-fascist…

It is important to note that the words Trump used were no accident. This form of gaslighting, through language, is meant to divide and cause animosity towards an “other.” The purpose is to cause fear in his supporters, with the goal of supporters looking to him as a deliverer from these “evils.”
The thing is though with the Left’s take over of the university system that criticism works much better the other way as a criticism of their political usage of the word ‘Fascist’.

I listed many left wing nationalist groups. I didn’t put Hitler’s National Socialist Workers Party in that list but i believe they were also left wing.

As soon as you start talking specifics the Forbes assertions start to disintegrate.

That is part of being red pilled when you realise the academic field has been politicised for decades and they have embraced the philosophy of relativism which means they have moved away from even the idea of objective truth in favour of desired narratives.

The first step in looking at this with objective truth is to define what is Left and what is right. When you do that it is not possible to put fascism on the right. The only way this happens is if you come from an extreme far left position and think that everyone to the right of you is far right. This is one reason why some people call everyone a fascist and Nazi. The antifa types certainly do this as has done the academic educators.

When you try to define politics by putting on one extreme side the Godless, collective, victim identity politics, non democratic, authoritarian state, redistributive, progressive, science based and violently repressive group and on the other extreme side of the spectrum the Godless, collective, victim identity politics, non democratic, authoritarian state, distributive, progressive, science based and violently repressive group then this is very revealing of the people doing the defining themselves.

That is a very inadequate way to look at the full spectrum of politics and the only people who do it are the people who see this as where the real politics should lie. That has been the narrow and inadequate view of Left wing academia.

As Trump has alluded to in his speech this narrow mindedness and inadequate defining of politics should be overturned. It is not objective truth and it is toxic which eats away at the idea of what America should be.
 
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Mussolini was a dictator who adopted some socialist ideas but he was also strongly nationalist, so he had a blend of both left and right; an in the end he was strongly anti-Communist, which is certainly not a leftist position.
Again nationalism can be left wing and there are different forms of left wing politics.

Being against one form of left wing politics doesn’t mean you are not left wing yourself.

The confederates were Americans. Being against the Confederates doesn’t mean you cannot be American yourself.

Again this works only if you believe one Leftist way is the only Leftist way. I think that is a narrow minded view that is not objective but looking at the world from within that ‘true’ Leftist position.
 
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Again nationalism can be left wing and there are different forms of left wing politics.
Well, the debate has been going on for about 6 decades, if not more as to Mussolini; and it would appear there are plenty of historians who see him as having a blend of both Left and Right; but his nationalism was seen as Right. Not to be confused with “correct”.
 
Well, the debate has been going on for about 6 decades, if not more as to Mussolini; and it would appear there are plenty of historians who see him as having a blend of both Left and Right; but his nationalism was seen as Right. Not to be confused with “correct”.
Yes i agree.

I am not insisting that Mussolini’s idea of nationalism was left wing but that nationalism itself is independent of left and right politics when you look at socialism in the broader sense. I think Mussolini’s socialist politics was simply transferred to a nationalist Italian state. There is a type of left wing politics that would like to define nationalism as right wing. In some ways this was a reaction against Mussolini, an avowed socialist activist turning his back on the traditional class based divisions of socialism and instead making the division on national identity.

Hitler’s party of course renamed their party from German Labour Party to the National Socialist Workers Party signifying Mussolini’s idea of making nationalism the dividing line of socialist politics. Hitler introduced scientific race theory into the division whereas Mussolini was more concerned with Italian culture.

I think Hitler’s new divisions placated many corporate business interests because this was a form of socialism they thought that they could accept. I think today (minus the race factor) there is a likewise meeting of minds of large corporations with left wing politics. Their recent support of BLM or Hillary Clinton or Nancy Pelosi is actually similar to the accommodation to the form of socialism of Mussolini and Hitler who wanted to bring them into the fold. The internationalist socialism has synergies with corporate globalism. We know when socialism establishes itself there quickly forms a ruling class. I think corporates today are ok with much of the socialist agenda if they can skip the blood letting and just become that ruling class themselves. Like Mussolini’s vision but on a global scale.

While i think Mussolini’s form of nationalism could be described as a step to the right i think Hitler’s nationalism was of the left wing variety.

That is because Hitler saw German workers as the exploited victims of the Jewish mercantile class, the international Capitalist nations and the international banking system which in his mind he also associated with Jews.

We have to remember that Hitler joined the German Labour party one year after the end of world war 1 where Germany was defeated, was paying massive war reparations and had lost massive quantities of territory of the German homeland to foreign victors.

It was not difficult to tell German workers they were the exploited victims of international Jewish capitalism and he followed Mussolini’s trajectory of rallying people on the grounds of national identity to form a German socialist state. The main difference to Bolshevik socialism was that the victim class was ethnic nationality, not class based and the socialist state would tackle the (claimed) historic injustice through its unchallenged power by being the new and fair arbiter of income.

back later.
 
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Coupling a true statement with a false one does not make the false one true.
I’m sorry you consider the movement of the sun false.
Somehow I missed the Kaepernick Presidency. When did that happen? Remember, you are looking for a President (besides Trump) who politicizes non-political celebrations.
Oh, that’s right. You don’t want to talk about the issue, just make a narrow, yet false point.
Kaepernick’s comments are part of a now open movement whose goal is simply to destroy the American republic, employing the lie that the nation’s founding principle is white supremacy. The president has an obligation to push back against such an despicable misrepresentation of America.
My statement of the negative claim is simply a refutation of the positive claim you made previously.
Is our that no president has ever done what Trump did I’ve already refuted. Obama himself admired as much.
 
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Mussolini was a dictator who adopted some socialist ideas but he was also strongly nationalist, so he had a blend of both left and right; an in the end he was strongly anti-Communist, which is certainly not a leftist position.
He was only anti-communist in the sense that he viewed them as competitors for power. He was “right wing” only in that he was just slightly to the right of communism.
His nationalism was as much about state power, his power specifically, as it was about Italian culture.
 
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is meant to divide and cause animosity towards an “other.”
We should have animosity toward people who wish to tear our republic down. I don’t need the president to tell me I should have animosity against people who present a lie that the founding principle of America is white supremacy. I already have it, but it is good for him to point out their despicable accusations.

As for “ left wing Fascism”, it is a redundancy, but if people don’t like that description, then simply compare the outcomes of communism and fascism.
Authoritarian rule.
Failed socialist policies.
Millions of civilians murdered.
No individual rights.

Sorry, I’m not seeing the difference. I’m not seeing how one is better than the other. I’m not seeing how Antifa is different than neo-Nazis.
 
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Would calling half the country especially cops guilty of racism be divisive? Diving between people who like the country and people who don’t is an accurate portrait of today.
 
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LeafByNiggle:
Untrue. Prove it. Take any President of the last 100 years. You won’t find a single one that has so badly politicized non-partisan events.
The singular absolute worse case of this was Obamas State of the Union where he denigrated the 3rd branch of government.

Im sure that will be “different” in your eyes…
Yes, it is different, because a State of the Union message is often used to promote political aims.
Ad hominem isn’t just criticizing it is an attack on the person and not what they wrote. I actually was questioning what was written. You have mischaracterized that it is an ad hominem.
Here is what you (@hope) wrote that was (properly) characterized as an ad hominem:
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hope:
Could you post anything that these sources have ever said positive about the President.?
The implication is that we cannot seriously address anything this source says negative about the President unless that source also has said something positive about the President. That is requiring some sort of purity test by the source, which is an attack on the source, not on the content of what was stated by that source.
and not one single person has shown any evidence whatsoever that racism is systemic in the US.
What is more accurate is that you have not accepted any evidence of systemic racism in the US. That I can believe. But that has more to do with what you will accept than what actually qualifies as evidence.
but there was tribalism when Reagan was President…
Then please explain the cordial relationship between Reagan and Tip O’Neill, despite the fact that politically they remained bitter enemies? There was tribalism, but nothing that would make Reagan turn a 4th of July celebration into an attack on the Democrats.
Just as a curiosity, as there were riots in multiple cities, how many of those cities had a Republican majority on the city council? And how many had a Democratic majority? Let’s talk real world numbers before we talk “denigrating Democrats”.
What is your point behind these “curiosity” questions? Is it that Democrats cause riots? If so, you are confusing cause and effect. For whatever reason, large cities tend to have Democratic majorities. And for obvious reasons, large cites are also places where population density makes riots more likely. To provide evidence of your point you would have to list a number of cities of comparable size that have Republican majorities and no riots. Lacking that, you do not have a point, other than the fact the Democrats tend to be popular in large cities.
 
“The more a person deems absolute equality among all people to be a desirable condition, the further left he or she will be on the ideological spectrum. The more a person considers inequality to be unavoidable or even desirable, the further to the right he or she will be”.
I think this is a slippery definition but given this definition i would say Hitler is on the Left like other far Left leaders. It is important to note that if we go to the extreme with regard to wanting equality it is necessary to have an extremely powerful and authoritarian state. Even then not only is absolute equality impossible but it always veers towards a rich ruling class having to confiscate more and more of other people’s wealth and often eliminate whole groups of people entirely.

Far Left wing governments are notoriously comprised of a rich ruling class and an impoverished working class which seems opposite to the given definition. This is because while the stated aim of historical far Leftists is equality it doesn’t end up that way in practice. The idea of equality is what gets them to power, often violently, but this is clearly a tactic to use the state to confiscate the wealth for themselves and then use the power of the state to virtually enslave workers for their own elitist benefit. Hitler claimed he was for equality blaming the rich Jews for exploiting the German worker. He also promised to make things more equal by use of the state.

The French Revolution did this as did every other far Left regime. In Myanmar for example the Socialist ruling class built a new capital city for themselves on the back of workers and then virtually forbade the common people from going there.

In North Korea they have done much the same.

In Russia Stalin committed mass murder against the rich peasants (kulaks) on the basis of equality and then took all their land for the state. (Similar to Hitler with the Jews). A certain percentage of people were to be killed in Russian villagers across the nation decided by the local people based on equality.

Sometimes it was as simple as if your family had 2 cows and your neighbour only had 1 cow your family was the one exterminated under the force of the state in the name of equality. Of course once you use the state to mass kill your own people in support of equality you can easily use it to mass kill other sections such as political rivals. So in theory being for equality sounds all very nice. In practice it is horrific and basically the same as Hitler killing all the supposedly rich Jews and taking their property for the state.



As i said all far left regimes killed people in the name of equality including Hitler.
 
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Another example i am familiar with was Cambodia. Pol Pot made all women cut their hair to be equal. He expelled civilian city dwellers to the country so they could all be equal. He exterminated people with higher education (not himself of course) so that his people could be more equal. He separated all families so individuals could be more equal and not have the benefit of a privileged nuclear family. Again equality sounds nice but not under far Leftists like Pol Pot and yes Adolf Hitler when it is pushed to the extremes.

In the absence of religion (and they all were against established religion) equality becomes the de facto article of communal faith exercised by the state.

The further Left you go with equality the more it becomes an insane authoritarian religion.


The below link takes a couple of minutes to load.
https://www.niod.nl/sites/niod.nl/files/Cambodian genocide.pdf

So Hitler’s idea of equality was much the same as other far Left leaders. In the name of equality and fairer income re-distribution he used the state to kill off large sections of people and confiscate their property for his utopian workers state.

Again the name of Hitler’s Party was the National Socialist Workers Party. This is exactly who they were.
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So when President Trump uses the phrase “Left wing Fascists” it is not an oxymoron to large numbers of us. It is an important acknowledgment of reality. In the current political violence of the last few weeks i would say it is important to state exactly where the actual divisiveness emanates in order to end it.

Not for a year or two or a political term, but end it entirely for good.
 
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Oh, that’s right. You don’t want to talk about the issue, just make a narrow, yet false point.
Kaepernick’s comments are part of a now open movement whose goal is simply to destroy the American republic, employing the lie that the nation’s founding principle is white supremacy. The president has an obligation to push back against such an despicable misrepresentation of America.
Note to the readers: Here we see acknowledgement of a common problem in these debates - a problem for both liberals and conservatives, as both sides have been equally guilty of it. That is the problem of over-generalizing an issue. Why do we do it? I’m not sure, but I suspect it is because we are unable to defend the narrow point that was the subject of the thread. By casting the issue into the generic catch-all of “the evil other vs the good us” (replace “other” with either “liberal” or “conservative” and replace “us” with the converse, “conservative” or “liberal”) we enlarge the issue to the point that it cannot possibly be addressed in a comprehensive way in anything short of a multi-volume treatise, and even then it would be incomplete.

Take the present example. The title of the thread is “Trump Uses Mount Rushmore Speech to Deliver Divisive Culture War Message.” There are several aspects to this topic. One is whether the speech was in fact divisive. Another is the appropriateness of the occasion for such a speech. I tried to address both of these issues through an analysis of the official White House transcript of the speech in question. I somewhat generalized the debate by noting that the combination of divisiveness and the occasion of the 4th of July celebration was uniquely Trumpian. So I suppose the first sin of over-generalizing goes to me. And now we see JonNC trying to further generalize the debate by bringing in Colin Kaepernick, who never was a President. This of course invites debate on whether Kaepernick is divisive - a debate that JonNC apparently would rather have than try to continue to focus on Trump or other Presidents at similar occasions.

If this were a formal high school debate such diversions would have been marked down and lost points for the team. But such diversions are common in CAF threads. You can take just about any politically charged thread with more than 200 responses and it is almost a sure bet that the most recent 20 or 30 posts to that thread have absolutely nothing to do with actual thread title or OP. It is so disappointing to go to the end of such a thread only to find out that it has degenerated into the generic us vs them debate, and what might have been an interesting debate is turned into the standard name-calling.

I know this is a long rant that is itself unrelated to the topic of this thread, but it just seemed like JonNC’s realization that I was focusing on a narrower subject than he wanted to discuss was a good example with which to illustrate this point. However I repeat that this tendency is not unique for conservatives, as I have seen liberals do exactly the same thing. OK, end of rant.
 
You have a point about non-political event however, you conveniently leave out a couple of other points. I don’t think you can point to a another President enduring the same circumstances? The rioting, the destruction of property, tearing down of statues. Not to mention the hatred he had to endure from the Democratic Party and the news. Those circumstances put it out of the norm.
Well, there was Lyndon Johnson during the 1967 riots that were much worse than the ones we have seen this year. Then there was FDR in 1943 during the race riots in Detroit, Harlem, Beaumont Texas, Los Angeles, and Mobile. And there was that minor disturbance called the Civil War from 1861 to 1865 when Abe Lincoln was President. All of these Presidents endured these much worse circumstances, including attacks by the media and the opposing party, and none of them politicized something like a 4th of July celebration. Lincoln was the best. His second inaugural speech was a masterpiece of a carefully crafted address designed to unify the nation that was horribly divided - much more so than today. But today Trump supporters don’t value a carefully crafted address and they certainly don’t value unification, but prefer to tout Trumps spontaneous “speaking from the gut.” Well, you know what? The gut is not a very intelligent organ. I prefer Lincoln’s brain and calm consideration to Trump’s off-the-cuff bravado.
You also limit the circumstances to fit your theory. You want to compare Trump to other presidents but yet you control those circumstances.
I just addressed this with my rant on over-generalization.
 
Note to the readers: Here we see acknowledgement of a common problem in these debates - a problem for both liberals and conservatives, as both sides have been equally guilty of it. That is the problem of over-generalizing an issue. Why do we do it? I’m not sure, but I suspect it is because we are unable to defend the narrow point that was the subject of the thread. By casting the issue into the generic catch-all of “ the evil other vs the good us ” (replace “other” with either “liberal” or “conservative” and replace “us” with the converse, “conservative” or “liberal”) we enlarge the issue to the point that it cannot possibly be addressed in a comprehensive way in anything short of a multi-volume treatise, and even then it would be incomplete.
Maybe because these are internet posts with a 3200 character limitation, not a doctoral dissertation.
I know this is a long rant that is itself unrelated to the topic of this thread,
Exactly.
 
Which is, Trump’s defense of America and her history and institutions at a time they are under attack.
History and institutions?

“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day." – Ralph Waldo Emerson
 
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Ender:
Dog whistles…by that I assume you mean you can’t refer to something actually said and instead rely on characterizing a contrary, but otherwise innocuous position, as evil. “Dog whistles” are easy to denounce. Specific comments not so much.
It’s interesting how it is only the Democrats that seem to hear these racist dog whistles.
Using the term “thugs,” referring to protesters or even rioters is a dog whistle for “black people.”

Using the term “horde” referring to immigrants entering the US is another dog whistle for White Nationalists.
 
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