Trump Uses Mount Rushmore Speech to Deliver Divisive Culture War Message

[LeafByNiggle]

I thought this argument was pretty thoroughly demolished with the comparison to the success of Asian Americans.

I explained that one partly because although Asians were also treated horribly, Asians were more accepted by society than blacks overall.

If yours are the only two options, how do you account for their achievements, or that of Jews, who are also a high achieving group and this is in spite of the discrimination against them?

Because the discrimination was not as widespread and deep as against blacks.

As to another explanation, I gave you that as well:

But it is not an explanation. It is just a right-wing rant with no basis in fact.

What I cited were examples of systemic racism, ostensibly in place to benefit blacks. I cited them to demonstrate the existence of racist policies emanating from the left.

What you call racist policy is, again, policy you think hurts whites, or at the very least does not help blacks. I won’t argue that point because I don’t think those policies were very effective either. But they didn’t hurt blacks. At worst they were neutral and perhaps a waste of money, but that is another subject. It still does not explain the racial disparities we see today in housing, wealth, education, health, etc.

Right, and here it is: “ We can’t cite anything, but we know it exists .”

Oh, I can cite things, but I am basically lazy and so I argue the easiest case that makes my point rather than a more difficult one. It is sufficient for now.

 

[JonNC]

Mostly the “never Trumper” Republicans. Yes, there are still some good ones left.

And virtually all of us oppose open borders and foreign nationals here illegally, which progressives approve of to neutralize American sovereignty.

 

[Ender]

I explained that one partly because although Asians were also treated horribly, Asians were more accepted by society than blacks overall.

You allowed only two possibilities to explain achievements by race: genetics or racism. Your “explanation” here doesn’t refer to either one. That Asians were less badly treated than blacks is irrelevant. They were treated worse than whites yet have over achieved relative to whites. According to your understanding the only explanation is that they are racially superior.

Because the discrimination was not as widespread and deep as against blacks.

So what? That Jews and Asians were discriminated against would (according to you) explain their failure to achieve at the same level as “whites”. It utterly fails as an explanation of why they achieve at a higher level.

But it is not an explanation. It is just a right-wing rant with no basis in fact.

Right, because everyone knows black ex-NFL linemen are a hotbed of right-wing thinking.

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What you call racist policy is, again, policy you think hurts whites…

Actually, I call those policies racist because they enforce choices made on the basis of…race. Whether they are meant to help some and hurt others, and whether they achieve any of the goals they profess is utterly irrelevant. Any policy that makes judgments of people based on their race is racist. Is that something you actually disagree with?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

They were treated worse than whites yet have over achieved relative to whites.

I explained that by self-selection. The Asians immigrants are not a random sampling of all Asians, but the whites who have lived here for ten or more generations are pretty random. Also, the Asians did not over-achieve to the extent we see today until after they were more accepted into American society.

That Jews and Asians were discriminated against would (according to you) explain their failure to achieve at the same level as “whites”. It utterly fails as an explanation of why they achieve at a higher level.

I know you want me to say it was their culture, and yes, it was their culture. They came to this country with their culture intact and kept that culture for generations. The blacks that were brought to this country had whatever culture they did have stripped from them and replaced by a slave culture for generations. So the ruling class in America is largely responsible for whatever cultural deficiencies the blacks have (except for those few blacks who freely chose to come from from Wakanda ).

 

[Ender]

I explained that by self-selection. The Asians immigrants are not a random sampling of all Asians, but the whites who have lived here for ten or more generations are pretty random. Also, the Asians did not over-achieve to the extent we see today until after they were more accepted into American society.

You recognized only two explanations for variations in achievements by race: systemic racism and genetics. Which explains the success of Asian Americans?

I know you want me to say it was their culture, and yes, it was their culture.

Culture was not an option you recognized earlier, but as you recognize it now I think we are now in agreement.

The blacks that were brought to this country had whatever culture they did have stripped from them and replaced by a slave culture for generations.

Given that the downward trend in black society can pretty accurately be traced to the 1960’s, I don’t think there is much of an argument that their current struggles are the result of a “slave culture.”

In 2016, census data showed that 74% of white children lived in a two parent family while under 39% of black children had that advantage. Given that this is perhaps the single best indicator of success in life this is a critical number. As is this statistic:

During the 1960-2016 period, the percentage of children living with only their mother nearly tripled from 8 to 23 percent…

The US has by far the highest percentage of children living in single parent families, and this is the direct result of government policies enacted in the 60’s, not a “slave culture” that had been extinguished 100 years earlier.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

I explained that by self-selection. The Asians immigrants are not a random sampling of all Asians, but the whites who have lived here for ten or more generations are pretty random. Also, the Asians did not over-achieve to the extent we see today until after they were more accepted into American society.

You recognized only two explanations for variations in achievements by race: systemic racism and genetics. Which explains the success of Asian Americans?

OK, make it three. But none of those three apply to blacks except racism.

I know you want me to say it was their culture, and yes, it was their culture.

Culture was not an option you recognized earlier, but as you recognize it now I think we are now in agreement.

The blacks that were brought to this country had whatever culture they did have stripped from them and replaced by a slave culture for generations.

Given that the downward trend in black society can pretty accurately be traced to the 1960’s…

That is not a given. It needs to be demonstrated. Are you saying there was some golden age when blacks and whites had similar wealth and education? Because I lived through the 1950’s and1960’s and I never saw it.

 

[Ender]

OK, make it three. But none of those three apply to blacks except racism.

The culture we are raised in affects us all. It is unreasonable to assert that somehow blacks are unaffected by theirs. To suggest that blacks differ from everyone else in this regard is itself a racist notion. What could possibly suggest that blacks are differently affected by their (local) culture than any other ethnic group?

That is not a given. It needs to be demonstrated.

I thought that’s what this citation did:

During the 1960-2016 period, the percentage of children living with only their mother nearly tripled from 8 to 23 percent…

And there are other data:

African Americans age 35 and older were more likely to be married than White Americans from 1890 until sometime around the 1960s. Not only did they swap places during the 60s but in 1980 the number of NEVER married African Americans began a staggering climb from about 10% to more than 25% by 2010 while the percentage for White women remained under 10% and just over 10% for White men.

The evidence is overwhelming that the disintegration of black families traces back to the 1960s. This is not a legacy of slavery.

 

[Culter]

The Chauvin/ Floyd issue is, first and foremost, an issue of government power abusing individual rights.
Nothing childish about pointing that out, and if progressives now believe that, that’s good for the country.

This isn’t true. The government didn’t abuse Floyd. It was one policeman.

 

[JonNC]

This isn’t true. The government didn’t abuse Floyd. It was one policeman.

One policeman, who is an agent of the progressive Democrat mayor of Minneapolis.

 

[Ender]

For those unconvinced we are in a culture war, and think that Trump was wrong to call it out, look at what has recently been attacked (this list taken from threads opened on this forum).

Union Civil War monument - Saratoga Springs, NY
Statue of Jesus - Catholic church in Miami
Catholic prayer group
Statues of Mary - Boston
Church set on fire - Florida
Mission church burned - California

 

[Nepperhan]

For those unconvinced we are in a culture war, and think that Trump was wrong to call it out

In a time of serious divisions isn’t it better to strive for unity? Trump is having folks separate to neutral corners to better duke it out, that’s clear. Can’t he stress what we all have in common instead of exploiting a divide?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

For those unconvinced we are in a culture war, and think that Trump was wrong to call it out, look at what has recently been attacked (this list taken from threads opened on this forum).

Union Civil War monument - Saratoga Springs, NY
Statue of Jesus - Catholic church in Miami
Catholic prayer group
Statues of Mary - Boston
Church set on fire - Florida
Mission church burned - California

I could get into how many of these acts, as violent as they are, were prompted by the kind of injustice that Trump has supported, I won’t do that. Instead I will just point out that even if Trump is right to rail against these signs of a culture war, the venue itself and the occasion at which he chose to take this stand is totally inappropriate. Remember, it was a time for national celebration of our birthday. It is like have a regular birthday party and then using that occasion to call out all the relatives of the birthday kid for their various shortcomings. There are plenty of appropriate times to make the kind of political speech he made: campaign rallies, news conferences, addresses to congress, tweets, debates, advertisements, etc. and Trump has used them all. But he has also used all sorts of apolitical events, like a visit from the Boy Scouts, to go political. Can’t we at least celebrate the 4th of July without hearing a diatribe from Trump?

 

[WingedHussar]

Maybe I do not want anything in common with neo-Marxists who think burning, looting, and murdering are acceptable behaviors.

 

[Ender]

I could get into how many of these acts, as violent as they are, were prompted by the kind of injustice that Trump has supported…

This is just disconnected from reality, but perhaps it explains why people feel justified in acts of terrorism: “Trump supports a border wall…so let’s burn down a church.” In all likelihood, however, churches are targets because they are pretty much the last opposition to the gay/trans ideology and support of traditional morality. This is only the beginning.

Remember, it was a time for national celebration of our birthday.

And what better time to call out the threats to our nation, or he could have just played a fiddle.

Maybe I do not want anything in common with neo-Marxists who think burning, looting, and murdering are acceptable behaviors.

You will have an opportunity to vote for or against such activities this fall.

 

[Nepperhan]

Maybe I do not want anything in common with neo-Marxists who think burning, looting, and murdering are acceptable behaviors.

OK, maybe Trump can unify all but those scalawags, huh? He didn’t try to.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Remember, it was a time for national celebration of our birthday.

And what better time to call out the threats to our nation,

I doubt the sincerity of that call when it identifies the opposing party as the threat. Every partisan thinks the other party is a threat to the nation. But even those partisans know when it time to set politics aside.

 

[Culter]

In a time of serious divisions isn’t it better to strive for unity? Trump is having folks separate to neutral corners to better duke it out, that’s clear. Can’t he stress what we all have in common instead of exploiting a divide?

He is. He’s really speaking against anti-American rhetoric and identity politics, both of which are divisive in our country. He wants people to unite as Americans, which is unifying within America.

 

[Culter]

I doubt the sincerity of that call when it identifies the opposing party as the threat. Every partisan thinks the other party is a threat to the nation. But even those partisans know when it time to set politics aside.

One party supports identity politics, one doesn’t. He wants more people to avoid that message and unite. You have to call out the problem to fix it.

 

[JonNC]

For those unconvinced we are in a culture war, and think that Trump was wrong to call it out, look at what has recently been attacked (this list taken from threads opened on this forum).

Union Civil War monument - Saratoga Springs, NY
Statue of Jesus - Catholic church in Miami
Catholic prayer group
Statues of Mary - Boston
Church set on fire - Florida
Mission church burned - California

I note in your list not a mention of a mosque, even though Mohammed was a slave holder and trader, even though slavery is still found in Islam today.
AFAIK, neither Jesus nor the Blessed Virgin owned slaves.

 

[JonNC]

I could get into how many of these acts, as violent as they are, were prompted by the kind of injustice that Trump has supported, I won’t do that.

Because it isn’t true.

Can’t we at least celebrate the 4th of July without hearing a diatribe from Trump?

Can’t we just watch a sports event without seeing a bunch of rich, privileged athletes virtue signal by kneeling during the national anthem?