Trump v. Clinton matchup has Catholic leaders scrambling

[TMC]

The Church does not endorse any political party.

But failing to oppose evil when we can is, itself, evil.

Supporting evil is, itself, evil.

What political candidates that have any chance of defeating the party of abortion are there?

If one is going to oppose evil, one has to oppose it, not just talk about how one sure would if only its opponent was perfect in every way one thinks he should be perfect.

This reminds me so much of Edward Rowland Sills’ poem “Opportunity”. So many of us are cowards, slinking around the edge of the battlefield excusing ourselves because we don’t have a perfect sword. No, Trump isn’t a perfect sword. Nor was Romney. Nor was McCain. Nor is anybody.

But to break the sword we have in hand, out of disdain for its lack of perfection and slink away from confrontation with the greatest evil of our time is moral cowardice.

It appears that for some “evil” is defined as “not Republican.” All flaws can be cured by sticking an (R) behind the name. If that is your opinion, you are welcome to it. I don’t find it consistent with Church teaching.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t know about poltical parties, intrinsic evil and cooperation with it would be akin to isis…

catholicnewsagency.com/news/high-profile-rome-exorcist-isis-is-satan-31600/

“ISIS is Satan. Things first happen in the spiritual realms, then they are made concrete on this earth,” he said in an April 8 post on the social media website.

Father Amorth continued, “there are only two spiritual realms: The Holy Spirit and the demonic spirit.”

He said the demonic enters in “because evil is disguised in various ways: political, religious, cultural, and it has one source of inspiration: the devil. As a Christian I fight the beast spiritually.”

“The political world, which today seems to lack a response in face of the massacre of Christians, will also have to fight ISIS and it will do it in a different way. If it advances as it seems to be doing, we ask ourselves what has the West done over the course of the last decades.”

We can answer by the persistent cooperation with abortion.

 

[Crossbones]

We can answer by the persistent cooperation with abortion.

By voting for the candidate that changed his position three times in one day?

 

[Sarcelle]

Im independent but I;m voting for the best statistical probability to beat Hillary, admittedly it looks like Trump.

Body count Hillary 1-million plus, Trump 0. Now if Bernie amends his pro-everything stance I would “consider” him, I’m not endorsing anyone at the moment though.

It must have to be a gloomy thing to actually want to vote for Hillary. Thats like volunteering to go along with pure evil. Almost on a equal playing field with Isis. Its like in a moral comparison cooperating with Isis.

I will not consider ever voting for Hillary but voting for Trump is almost physically painful for me.

I would rather vote third party.

 

[GaryTaylor]

By voting for the candidate that changed his position three times in one day?

Hillary changed her position three times yesterday in WV. But she never changes her position in her advocacy of abortion. One might suggest she is the devils advocate on the intrinsic evil of abortion. I don’t know I just thought I’d throw that comparison out there as I know how much the left loves moral comparisons. I don’t think the depth of intrinsic evil is grasped, but sort of dismissed.

I sympathize with those who feel compelled to cooperate with that though. We should pray for them as Sally suggested. Whats offered as bread is a stone imho. We can also safely say isis was created on the Obama-Hillary watch. Rather freaky stuff I’ll tell you. I could see why you say never Hillary

 

[GaryTaylor]

I will not consider ever voting for Hillary but voting for Trump is almost physically painful for me.

I would rather vote third party.

Lots of people, over 20% feel that way and higher in the democrat party as we see with Bernie today.

I think we should have a national boycott with Hillary consensus though, shes despicable. I think its time we question this entire Clinton campaign just as Bernie is suggesting we want to see all the transcripts, its hard to see her as a friend of Americans, more like a friend of our enemies.

breitbart.com/national-security/2016/03/01/hillary-emails-betrayed-whereabouts-of-murdered-ambassador-chris-stevens/

 

[Crossbones]

Hillary changed her position three times yesterday in WV. But she never changes her position in her advocacy of abortion. One might suggest she is the devils advocate on the intrinsic evil of abortion. I don’t know I just thought I’d throw that comparison out there as I know how much the left loves moral comparisons. I don’t think the depth of intrinsic evil is grasped, but sort of dismissed.

I sympathize with those who feel compelled to cooperate with that though. We should pray for them as Sally suggested. Whats offered as bread is a stone imho. We can also safely say isis was created on the Obama-Hillary watch. Rather freaky stuff I’ll tell you. I could see why you say never Hillary

What did she change her position on? Something as important as abortion or a regional triviality.

And ISIS was created because of President GW Bush’s unjust war in Iraq.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It appears that for some “evil” is defined as “not Republican.” All flaws can be cured by sticking an (R) behind the name. If that is your opinion, you are welcome to it. I don’t find it consistent with Church teaching.

How one “finds it” is not mandatory on Catholics. In fact, subjectivism is very anti-Catholic.

Your religion is not shown. If you are not Catholic, then it’s inappropriate to tell Catholics what our religion ought to be. Never would I go into, say, a Jewish site and tell Jews what their religion should be. Never.

 

[Ridgerunner]

What did she change her position on? Something as important as abortion or a regional triviality.

And ISIS was created because of President GW Bush’s unjust war in Iraq.

Actually, ISIS was created by members of Al Quaeda who wanted to kill Shiites as part of the Sunni Jihad; something A.Q. didn’t want to do.

When Al Quaeda gave up in Iraq, so did ISIS. The latter moved its effort to Syria. Obama abandoned Iraq despite the please of the Sunni, Shia and Kurds and the advice of the CIA, DIA and Joint Chiefs.

Remember, but for Russia and Iran, Assad would have fallen to ISIS without a single U.S. soldier being in Syria. Bush didn’t create ISIS. ISIS created ISIS.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I’m a coward. Hmm…I think I’m just smart.
Trump has supported and continues to support much evil. He is FAR FAR FAR from perfect. Not just a little, a LOT!

He will not get my vote and I refuse to be bullied by you and others who are insinuating our cooperation or siding with evil simply because we choose a 3rd party option.

I’ve been saying no to Trump even when there were many more candidates.

I didn’t get to vote in a Primary until April. By then I just had three to chose from. I still didn’t chose Trump.

Trump’s flippingly flopping stance on abortion seems to have not mattered to the Republicans who voted for him. Just off the top of my head, Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush and others were prolife. They weren’t good enough, apparently.

The choice I have is Trump or Hillary? Sorry. Not voting for either one.

I can’t. I’ve voted Republican and registered as a Republican because of life issues. Now the candidate that’s been picked for me is just prolife because he says so.

I’m not convinced at all that he will do anything to save any unborn. Why praise planned parenthood? Why not make a statement on the anniversary of Roe v Wade like many of his Republican opponents did?

Adding, Mr. Trump has been a huge proponent of a very liberal interpretation of eminent domain. So when it’s time to pick a member of the supreme court is he really going to pick someone who would view eminent domain conservatively? I’m not sure he’s the type to go against his actual interests.

 

[estesbob]

But you and others go much further than that. You claim that voting Democrat is evil. You claim that voting for a pro-life third party candidate is evil. You claim that not voting is evil. Your position is that Americans that do not vote Republican are supporting evil. The Church does not teach that, and has never taught that.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Party.No one said you have to vote Republican or you can’t vote Democrat.You simply can not vote for one who supports abortion unless their opponent is more pro-abortion than they are. Party is irelevant.

 

[GaryTaylor]

What did she change her position on? Something as important as abortion or a regional triviality.

And ISIS was created because of President GW Bush’s unjust war in Iraq.

Isis incubated under Obama due to his miscalculation with Iraq. We can safely say he is a foreign policy disaster.

She never changes her mind on intrinsic evil, of course not, shes the advocate for intrinsic evil. Trivial aspects, well that doesn’t seem so in the peoples minds from state to state as such with these trade deals such as NAFTA, TPP and various issues with energy such as the coal and fracking. So these are all real also leading to, well…

Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are locked in a tight race across the country’s most critical battleground states, according to new polling that challenges assumptions the presumptive Republican nominee would enter a general election battle against the former secretary of state as the underdog.

The Quinnipiac University Poll tested a Clinton-Trump match-up in Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania. The two were close in every state, with Trump even edging Clinton in Ohio, 43-39 percent.

In Florida, Clinton led Trump 43-42 percent. The Democratic primary front-runner held the same 1-point edge in Pennsylvania as well.

foxnews.com/politics/2016/05/10/swing-state-polls-show-clinton-trump-in-airtight-race.html

The incredibly close race which many predict, already shaping up.

 

[TMC]

How one “finds it” is not mandatory on Catholics. In fact, subjectivism is very anti-Catholic.

Your religion is not shown. If you are not Catholic, then it’s inappropriate to tell Catholics what our religion ought to be. Never would I go into, say, a Jewish site and tell Jews what their religion should be. Never.

I am Catholic.

What I find inappropriate is telling Catholics that it is evil to do anything other than voting for whomever the GOP nominates. That may be your opinion, or at least the opinion you want to spread to support your partisan endeavors. But it is not appropriate to pretend or suggest that position is supported by the Church.

 

[TMC]

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Party.No one said you have to vote Republican or you can’t vote Democrat.You simply can not vote for one who supports abortion unless their opponent is more pro-abortion than they are. Party is irelevant.

I think that if you review this thread, and the many like it, you will find many statements that voting for a non-GOP pro-life candidate is “supporting evil” and that choosing not to vote is “supporting evil.” You may not make those statements, but others do.

 

[estesbob]

I think that if you review this thread, and the many like it, you will find many statements that voting for a non-GOP pro-life candidate is “supporting evil” and that choosing not to vote is “supporting evil.” You may not make those statements, but others do.

Can you point out someone who said a Catholic has to vote republican?

 

[Crossbones]

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Party.No one said you have to vote Republican or you can’t vote Democrat.You simply can not vote for one who supports abortion unless their opponent is more pro-abortion than they are. Party is irelevant.

Again, I would encourage newcomers and lurkers to study this issue carefully and come to their own conclusions. I recommend reading Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship from the USCCB and reviewing what different bishops have to say about the issue. For example, from priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/kicanas-synod.htm, Bishop Kicanas was interviewed.

INTERVIEWER: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go. Is that right?

BISHOP KICANAS: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices.

 

[estesbob]

Again, I would encourage newcomers and lurkers to study this issue carefully and come to their own conclusions. I recommend reading Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship from the USCCB and reviewing what different bishops have to say about the issue. For example, from priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/kicanas-synod.htm, Bishop Kicanas was interviewed.

INTERVIEWER: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go. Is that right?

BISHOP KICANAS: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices.

I would encourage people to look at what the Church actually says-not peoples personal opinion of what they “meant”

 

[Crossbones]

I would encourage people to look at what the Church actually says-not peoples personal opinion of what they “meant”

I am not interpreting Bishop Kicanas’ statement, but rather posting it for those to interpret it themselves.

 

[estesbob]

I am not interpreting Bishop Kicanas’ statement, but rather posting it for those to interpret it themselves.

But there is no need to interpret anything -Church teaching is quite clear and explicit. In fact the only people calling for interpretation are those trying to rationalize rejecting Church teaching.

*“No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what’s called the ‘right to choice’ of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion,”

“You may in some circumstances where you don’t have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone”

Cardinal Burke*

*In considering “the sum total of social conditions,” there is, however, a certain order of priority, which must be followed. Conditions upon which other conditions depend must receive our first consideration. The first consideration must be given to the protection of human life itself, without which it makes no sense to consider other social conditions. “The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 2273). *

 

[Convert_in_99]

Voting for Hillary helps how?

He didn’t say anywhere that he was voting for Hilary. In fact, he said he won’t vote for any pro-choice candidates which would include not voting for Hilary OR Trump. If that’s what you got from his post, you need to read it again slowly and carefully.

Voting 3rd party does NOT equal voting for Hilary. Quite the opposite actually.