Trump v. Clinton matchup has Catholic leaders scrambling

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EWTN has no teaching authority. Since Forming Consciences specifically tells us “We encourage Catholics to seek those resources authorized by their own bishops, their state Catholic conferences, and the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.” I choose not to put weight into a document made outside these councils.
It’s important for people to properly form their consciences and not make excuses. It’s obvious to me that many Catholics go around making all kinds of lame excuses (as do other members of various faiths) and they actually expect me to sit there and buy into. That is called scandal, and it’s something that John the Baptist dealt with when the elites wanted to be Baptized just to look good. He turned them away and could see their intentions.

Really, some of this stuff isn’t rocket science and it’s painfully obvious what some folks are trying to pull.
 
Certainly not a priority in Canada, eh? Does either party remotely support abortion restrictions there?
If I understand correctly your contention is that since you “think” one candidate “might” start a disastrous war its OK to vote for a Candidate who supports the killing of a million children a year?
Yes.
As I say, the unborn life in the womb is not a priority for secular leftism, even the secular leftist worlds that so many Catholics inhabit.

Sometimes the facade falls completely, as above.

That is the context of my statement.

The context of your statement is to discuss me rather than follow the thread.

That is the same broken record theme that you have chosen for yourself.
 
Yes you did you quoted the USCCB and made war and the DP morally equal to abortion and I showed you they are not. In conceptual thinking they are but in reality abortion has a clear priority not left to discern by anyone. That conversation is over by the Church, but it can’t be over with the DP or war because as we see a rare bird like Isis may indeed appear. So the teaching itself appears relevant but there are distinctions which shows inaccuracy of equal relevance. The Church speaks volumes on the DP but admits a rare bird may exist that it mat be applicable. Its not applicable how we use it, but speaking of evil like with Isis a case may exist. Thats never the case with abortion. The ship sailed on the conversation with them. There is not instance of a rare acceptance.
When did I do this exactly? In my discussion on this topic with you, I have focused on torture and the targeting of noncombatants within the context of Forming Consciences of Faithful Citizenship. Can you point me to the post where I talked about this?
 
Im not interested in that conversation. My case is made and unless you have a point to discuss then we can move on.
 
As I say, the unborn life in the womb is not a priority for secular leftism, even the secular leftist worlds that so many Catholics inhabit.

Sometimes the facade falls completely, as above.

That is the context of my statement.

The context of your statement is to discuss me rather than follow the thread.

That is the same broken record theme that you have chosen for yourself.
The two things you quoted were not both coming from me, but it may come across to some that I said both. I would appreciate it if you could be more careful not to do that in the future.

It’s interesting that the Republican party has steadily moved away from Catholic values, either through the unjust wars and introduction of torture by GW Bush or through the nomination of Donald Trump who proposes bringing back torture and murdering people by targeting noncombatants. Yet those who find the current Republican party and their support for intrinsic evil unpalatable get to be accused of not caring for the unborn.
 
Im not interested in that conversation. My case is made and unless you have a point to discuss then we can move on.
I see. I should say that I don’t think you made your case that your support of Trump is based on Church teaching or even your personal interpretation of Church teaching but rather your own personal views. But if you don’t want to discuss it further, that is fine. Have a great day.
 
Your not the arbiter of my case being made. And now I would have to agree with…
That’s fair, I’ll let the lurkers and the newcomers decide if you’ve made your case.

I would disagree that the discussion was about you except that I was trying to understand how you arrived at your support of Trump through Church teachings.
 
For those who say abstaining from the presidential vote is a vote for Clinton and thus on demand abortion… I’m not an American, but does the president have the power to unilaterally push through on demand abortion across the country? If both candidates are immoral options (and I strongly believe that it is NOT an option to vote for Trump or Hilary if you hold to a Catholic worldview), why not abstain from the presidential election and focus on pro-life, decent candidates for other offices: state governors, congressmen, senators, etc.
 
For those who say abstaining from the presidential vote is a vote for Clinton and thus on demand abortion… I’m not an American, but does the president have the power to unilaterally push through on demand abortion across the country? If both candidates are immoral options (and I strongly believe that it is NOT an option to vote for Trump or Hilary if you hold to a Catholic worldview), why not abstain from the presidential election and focus on pro-life, decent candidates for other offices: state governors, congressmen, senators, etc.
The thing about this American election is the following:
  1. The Supreme Court. Whoever wins may pick 5-6 new justices Many of them are old. The Supreme Court legalized so-called gay “marriage”. If Hillary Clinton gets in, that won’t change. In fact, things could get much worse for orthodox Catholics.
In fact, liberals and mainstream Democrats should take note because this could negate what GOP governors and legislatures do in blue states. Those property taxes and union insurance plans they don’t like? Don’t think for a second that a new liberal court wouldn’t make them pay through the nose! It may even, ironically, undermine Clinton’s own pragmatism.

I can say the GOP would’ve thought twice before confirming John Roberts if they knew he’d save Obamacare twice. The late Scalia even scoffed that it should be called “Supreme Court Care”.
  1. Voting third party normally means that all one does is help the person one really doesn’t want to win get elected.
Frankly, I heard the “not good enough” argument last year with the “not-Romney” crowd, and I haven’t exactly seen them since the election. Perhaps they are too busy trying to work to pay for all the bills Barack Obama is racking up or they busy looking for full-time work.

I also have to wonder sometimes what some American social conservatives are thinking and if the left isn’t right that some of them really still think the electorate is the same as it was in 1950. :rolleyes:

Normally it would not be an option but a third candidate may be viable in this election given the current negatives of both frontrunners, but I’m in a position now where I have to see what the GOP elite is planning. A big name like Bush or Romney might be able to draw 1/3 of the vote or so, and the election would depend on what happens in each state. In this scenario, Clinton probably wins because the split would be mostly in republican states. But, I’ll have to see.

However, someone like a libertarian candidate or a Virgil Goode isn’t going to do that. In fact, in the corrupt state of Illinois, for instance,I’ve heard the Democratic Party goes out of its way to keep its nearest competitor, the Green Party, off the ballot, while they are okay with libertarian candidates whom they evidently think votes away from the GOP.

Voting on moral exactness in this era comes with a high price. Folks will have to excuse me that I’m not convinced all of them understand that.

The golden rule about American elections that I haven’t seen a lot of talk about lately is the electorate college. The popular vote is for all intensive purposes meaningless when it comes to this, other than the fact that if a candidate wins a majority by 1 vote in most states, they get all the electoral votes. 270 means that person is president.
 
Your not the arbiter of my case being made. And now I would have to agree with…
As we see again in this thread the problem inherent in discussing Catholic teachingS with non-Catholics is they have a poor understanding of apostolic succession, where the teaching authority of the church resides and the necessity of a properly formed conscience
 
As we see again in this thread the problem inherent in discussing Catholic teachingS with non-Catholics is they have a poor understanding of apostolic succession, where the teaching authority of the church resides and the necessity of a properly formed conscience
Or maybe because it was an inconsistent application of Church teaching with an injection of personal views. Again, I’m sure that the newcomers and lurkers can process all the information and use their properly formed consciences to determine who to vote for.

By the way, I’ve already mentioned that I am not revealing whether or not I am Catholic because I do not see it as adding to the conversation. I can only assume that you didn’t read that or you wouldn’t be repeated the same point again. After all, that would be lying since you don’t know.
 
No, no you can’t. Hillary Clinton is WORSE on the intrinsic evils compared to Trump, so there is no way for a Christian to vote for Clinton and remain faithful to the teachings of the Church.
Yes, yes I can and will vote for HRC. Just like the majority of Catholics who voted for Obama-there is NO WAY I will ever consider voting for Trump. NO WAY, NO HOW.
 
As we see again in this thread the problem inherent in discussing Catholic teachingS with non-Catholics is they have a poor understanding of apostolic succession, where the teaching authority of the church resides and the necessity of a properly formed conscience
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My opinion? Well thats a bit different, my opinion is the right of life/abortion is the top priority since mans existence rests in the hands of God. Roe vs Wade bought discord throughout the land, its a destructive war of selfishness because of man granting a privilege to kill in Gods Kingdom as a right, which has been on-going much to long. When mothers kill one million a year of their own children then there is no moral conversation, if you can transgress this human right of the most innocent then there are no human rights. You cannot possibly think you’ll impose in such a way on Gods will and gift of love, and peace and good will be the result of this violence. Its blindness to intrinsic evil. Your attempting to destroy Gods love itself, and you would think this isn’t the greatest priority and threat to your existence? You can’t even start to discuss any other intrinsic evil as a result because you cannot have a moral conversation after committing such an atrocity and spitting in Gods face in His Kingdom, its nonsensical. After such complete disregard for the spiritual law how can anyone tell another who can be killed and how or how to treat another human in regards to diginity? There is no logical conversation proceeding from this transgression. :nope:
 
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My opinion? Well thats a bit different, my opinion is the right of life/abortion is the top priority since mans existence rests in the hands of God. Roe vs Wade bought discord throughout the land, its a destructive war of selfishness because of man granting a privilege to kill in Gods Kingdom as a right, which has been on-going much to long. When mothers kill one million a year of their own children then there is no moral conversation, if you can transgress this human right of the most innocent then there are no human rights. You cannot possibly think you’ll impose in such a way on Gods will and gift of love, and peace and good will be the result of this violence. Its blindness to intrinsic evil. Your attempting to destroy Gods love itself, and you would think this isn’t the greatest priority and threat to your existence? You can’t even start to discuss any other intrinsic evil as a result because you cannot have a moral conversation after committing such an atrocity and spitting in Gods face in His Kingdom, its nonsensical. After such complete disregard for the spiritual law how can anyone tell another who can be killed and how or how to treat another human in regards to diginity? There is no logical conversation proceeding from this transgression. :nope:
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My opinion? Well thats a bit different, my opinion is the right of life/abortion is the top priority since mans existence rests in the hands of God. Roe vs Wade bought discord throughout the land, its a destructive war of selfishness because of man granting a privilege to kill in Gods Kingdom as a right, which has been on-going much to long. When mothers kill one million a year of their own children then there is no moral conversation, if you can transgress this human right of the most innocent then there are no human rights. You cannot possibly think you’ll impose in such a way on Gods will and gift of love, and peace and good will be the result of this violence. Its blindness to intrinsic evil. Your attempting to destroy Gods love itself, and you would think this isn’t the greatest priority and threat to your existence? You can’t even start to discuss any other intrinsic evil as a result because you cannot have a moral conversation after committing such an atrocity and spitting in Gods face in His Kingdom, its nonsensical. After such complete disregard for the spiritual law how can anyone tell another who can be killed and how or how to treat another human in regards to diginity? There is no logical conversation proceeding from this transgression. :nope:
This is elegant, but it is also your opinion. So, I take back what I said before about your support of Trump being that of your personal views, but rather it is your personal interpretation of Church teaching.
 
Well Thank You but I’m afraid there’s a distinction also as my opinion is based on objective reading, and the logical interpretation follows as witnessed and is completely rational as all the arguments stand and hold water.

The issue with your opinion is its one of relevance, and based on a admitted emotional bias. So it brings forth multiple issues.
Yeah, it’s weird because I find the Trump kind of lying harder to swallow because it reminds me of a con man I once had to deal with. The guy would lie about anything; I’ve never dealt with anyone quite like that. Clinton is more the standard “spin the facts” politician liar. That I expect and know how to deal with better. But that may be my personal experience coming into play.
Thanks
 
Well Thank You but I’m afraid there’s a distinction also as my opinion is based on objective reading, and the logical interpretation follows as witnessed and is completely rational as all the arguments stand and hold water.
As other arguments stand and hold water as well. I don’t have a problem with personal interpretations of Church teachings because that’s what we all have to do. I have a problem with the presentation of personal interpretation as the only true understanding of Church teaching.
The issue with your opinion is its one of relevance, and based on a admitted emotional bias. So it brings forth multiple issues.
I do find Trump’s lying on little things very weird. He does it so often Megyn Kelly (he wasn’t talking about her having her period)), David Duke (I don’t know who he is) or the NYT reporter (I didn’t know he was disabled) that I wonder if his natural defense when confronted with something is to try to make up something.

That doesn’t change that he has clearly stated he will support intrinsic evils, repeatedly.

Like Donald’s little lies, many Catholic supporters of Trump don’t care about this.
 
The issue with your opinion is its one of relevance, and based on a admitted emotional bias. So it brings forth multiple issues.
OK so lets move past the emotion to civil discourse because we still have to get to the basis of your point and mine as there is conflict, which my argument is basically laid out in my opinion above.

However, you propose and correct me if I am wrong that there can be no lesser of two evils. I contend otherwise and I also contend abstinence is choosing the greater of the two evils.

The lesser of two evils can be read here…

womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=47706

The point there is another choice to avoid evil all together I don’t see as rational but I’m willing to listen to that point as admittedly there may be something I overlooked.
 
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