Trump v. Clinton matchup has Catholic leaders scrambling

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Maximilan_Kolbe said:
Don’t all candidates say they are going to do terrible things? Hillary certainly does, even if is continuing the atrocities already in place.

I’d say terrible things is in the eye of the beholder, and since every candidate is guilty, why make this about Trump?
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I’m not a fan of Clinton. But I am hardpressed to remember a candidate that promised war crimes like Trump has.

If you follow the whole thread, you will understand why this particular discussion is on Trump.
 
I am comparing the actions of Trump’s supporters to those of Hitler’s
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Its absurd nonsense which I already told you. Google Obama an Hitler and you could read hundreds of links and of actual survivors. I’m not interested. If this is the best you have for a intellectual debate than there’s nothing else to discuss. I reject it. If you need to rant on with wild accusations be my guest. Its embarrassing. 😊
 
GaryTaylor said:
Its absurd nonsense which I already told you. Google Obama an Hitler and you could read hundreds of links and of actual survivors. I’m not interested. If this is the best you have we have for a intellectual debate than there’s nothing else to discuss. I reject it. If you need to rant on with wild accusations be my guest. Its embarrassing. 😊
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I agree that it is embarrassing how Catholics are ignoring Church teachings and supporting a candidate that advocates intrinsic evils.
 
Crossbones said:
I agree that it is embarrassing how Catholics are ignoring Church teachings and supporting a candidate that advocates intrinsic evils.
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:tsktsk::tsktsk::tsktsk:

It appears that advocates of the DNC are using the problems of Trump to excuse ignoring Church teaching and justifying their support and vote for Clinton/Sanders.
 
Crossbones said:
Actually, I am comparing the actions of Trump’s supporters to those of Hitler’s. Hitler said he would do terrible things and his supporters still voted for him. Trump says he will do terrible things and his supporters aren’t dissuaded from voting for him (even Catholics who know that torture and targeting noncombatants are intrinsic evils). So, I think it’s a pretty precise analogy. Maybe you could provide a counterexample of someone who said they would do horrible things against the teachings of the Catholic Church and then didn’t after they were elected to power.
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It’s pretty appalling that Clinton supporters are actually floating this justification for voting for her. Your support of Clinton is exactly what you are attempting to condemn here.
 
Crossbones said:
I’m not a fan of Clinton. But I am hardpressed to remember a candidate that promised war crimes like Trump has.

If you follow the whole thread, you will understand why this particular discussion is on Trump.
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Oh I get it. And with Trump, you point out the water boarding example.

With Clinton, we’ve pointed out the furthering the cause of taking innocent life in the womb, furthering the cause of promoting gay marriage, furthering the cause of euthanasia, and furthering the cause of fetal stem cell research.

So if you want to vote third party, so be it. But don’t try to sell Trump as the CINC-all things terrible when in reality, we could do this in every election since the 70s, or even earlier.

Now if you consider the possible use of torture as outweighing the other moral issues listed, say so, but I doubt many would agree. Perhaps equal in terms of intrinsic value, but not equal in terms of likelihood and the magnitude of impact. Again, compare the number of water boardings in history to the number of abortions just last year, and see if in terms of impact, they are even close.

Using the WW2 comparison you raised, if we had a candidate, we’ll call him Tronald Dump, who espoused the use of water boarding, while his opponent, we’ll call her Killary Hinton, promoted continuing the policy of gassing Jews, medical experimentation on Catholics and homosexuals, and the starvation and gassing of religious figures, I doubt we’d be focusing so much on Mr’s Dump’s potential to do as much as we would what horrific promotion of the latter items. Unfortunately, the normalcy of abortion and homosexual lifestyles is so ingrained in our sub-conscious that folks forget how diabolical they are. But when using your WW2 analogies, it should be an unpleasant reminder just what we are talking about.
 
zz912 said:
It’s pretty appalling that Clinton supporters are actually floating this justification for voting for her. Your support of Clinton is exactly what you are attempting to condemn here.
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To be clear, I don’t support Clinton.

The trouble with the analogy is bringing up Hitler because of the atrocities of the crimes against humanity. My point is that all the signs were there that this man would do monstrous things but he still garnered support and then went on to do monstrous things.

Yet Trump has said he will target noncombatants and use torture and everyone who supports him is making all sorts of excuses why he didn’t mean it or that he won’t really do it or we don’t know what he’ll do to justify their vote for intrinsic evil. If Catholics cannot vote for Clinton because of her support of abortion (as many here suggest), then Catholics cannot vote for Trump because of his support of torture and targeting noncombatants.
 
St_Francis said:
So you won’t vote for Hillary because abortion is intrinsically evil.
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His goal is not to say, but to simply poke at Catholics to dissuade them from voting for Trump. Now if he believes his own rhetoric and can’t abide voting for either, all the better. But I have yet to hear that…
 
St_Francis said:
So you won’t vote for Hillary because abortion is intrinsically evil.
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I can’t see myself voting for either of the major party candidates. I am disappointed that the Constitutional Party candidate doesn’t seem to be on the Illinois Presidential ballot.
 
Maximilan_Kolbe said:
Oh I get it. And with Trump, you point out the water boarding example.

With Clinton, we’ve pointed out the furthering the cause of taking innocent life in the womb, furthering the cause of promoting gay marriage, furthering the cause of euthanasia, and furthering the cause of fetal stem cell research.

So if you want to vote third party, so be it. But don’t try to sell Trump as the CINC-all things terrible when in reality, we could do this in every election since the 70s, or even earlier.

Now if you consider the possible use of torture as outweighing the other moral issues listed, say so, but I doubt many would agree. Perhaps equal in terms of intrinsic value, but not equal in terms of likelihood and the magnitude of impact. Again, compare the number of water boardings in history to the number of abortions just last year, and see if in terms of impact, they are even close.

Using the WW2 comparison you raised, if we had a candidate, we’ll call him Tronald Dump, who espoused the use of water boarding, while his opponent, we’ll call her Killary Hinton, promoted continuing the policy of gassing Jews, medical experimentation on Catholics and homosexuals, and the starvation and gassing of religious figures, I doubt we’d be focusing so much on Mr’s Dump’s potential to do as much as we would what horrific promotion of the latter items. Unfortunately, the normalcy of abortion and homosexual lifestyles is so ingrained in our sub-conscious that folks forget how diabolical they are. But when using your WW2 analogies, it should be an unpleasant reminder just what we are talking about.
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Of course, you are assuming that under Tronald Dump the gassings will stop. After all, Tronald has been a supporter of the gassings in the past and recently changed his position three times on the gassings in one day. Many of Dump’s supporters admit they don’t know what he’s going to do.
 
Crossbones said:
The USCCB document does not say that a Catholic cannot vote for someone who supports abortion, but does point out what a very serious issue it is.
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*No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what’s called the ‘right to choice’ of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion,"

“You may in some circumstances where you don’t have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone”

Cardinal Burke*
 
GaryTaylor said:
Crossbones;13892892:
No one “knows” what he is going to do in relation. Nor do you and that does make sense. In fact he’s still courting the conservative platform which is yet to be defined for the convention but it will be then.

What we DO know is abortion in particular is a priority of the Church and perpetual teaching because of the culture of death-America. And Hillary has multiple issues already in regards.
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You sound like the people that voted for Obamacare…“You have to pass it to know what’s in it”. 👍

So we have to elect Trumpy to find out what he’ll do? I’ll pass.
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zz912 said:
It’s pretty appalling that Clinton supporters are actually floating this justification for voting for her. Your support of Clinton is exactly what you are attempting to condemn here.
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Abortion will remain legal in this country until Catholic democrats come to love the unborn more than they hate the GOP.
 
Maximilan_Kolbe said:
His goal is not to say, but to simply poke at Catholics to dissuade them from voting for Trump. Now if he believes his own rhetoric and can’t abide voting for either, all the better. But I have yet to hear that…
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I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure crossbones is advocating either voting third party or abstaining from the presidential box, same as I do.

Correct me if I’m wrong Cross.
 
Crossbones said:
To be clear, I don’t support Clinton.
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You honestly fooled me. Absolutely nothing in your multitude of posts hints at anything other than full support for Hillary. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen you make a post stating the obvious, that a Catholic can’t vote for her.
 
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