Trump v. Clinton matchup has Catholic leaders scrambling

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estesbob said:
So tell me-where is room for interpretation in :

*“No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what’s called the ‘right to choice’ of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion,”

“You may in some circumstances where you don’t have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone”

Cardinal Burke*
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Cardinal Burke does not speak for the Church. He is not my bishop, nor my pope. The USCCB, at least, provides a more nuanced position on voting. I note that abortions in the U.S. hit their peak during the Reagan administration and have declined since then under both Democratic and Republican presidents, including President Obama.

It is very likely that policies that reduce poverty or address the problems of the poor are more effective in reducing the number of abortions than the stated policy positions of candidates, who will say whatever is necessary to win votes. Donald Trump, in particular, has said that he both supports and does not support abortion rights (as did Mitt Romney). I know, I know…Hillary is a strong pro-choice candidate. However, I believe that her policy positions, if enacted, would reduce the number of abortions in the U.S. more effectively than those of Trump.

Moreover, I am not inclined to collapse the decision to vote for one candidate over another to the issue of abortion. The USCCB avoided that approach and thoughtful Catholics can follow their lead.
 
adowcday said:
Cardinal Burke does not speak for the Church. He is not my bishop, nor my pope. The USCCB, at least, provides a more nuanced position on voting. I note that abortions in the U.S. hit their peak during the Reagan administration and have declined since then under both Democratic and Republican presidents, including President Obama.

It is very likely that policies that reduce poverty or address the problems of the poor are more effective in reducing the number of abortions than the stated policy positions of candidates, who will say whatever is necessary to win votes. Donald Trump, in particular, has said that he both supports and does not support abortion rights (as did Mitt Romney). I know, I know…Hillary is a strong pro-choice candidate. However, I believe that her policy positions, if enacted, would reduce the number of abortions in the U.S. more effectively than those of Trump.

Moreover, I am not inclined to collapse the decision to vote for one candidate over another to the issue of abortion. The USCCB avoided that approach and thoughtful Catholics can follow their lead.
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The USCCB has no teaching authority.I have posted direct quotes from numerous Popes, Bishops and Cardinals as well as direct excerpts from Church documents. If you have anything whatsoever from the Church that supports your position please post it-but please not your interpretation of what it “means”. nothing I have posted needs any personal interpretation at all.
 
estesbob said:
So our faith should not impact our politics in any way???
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Churches are where people should learn morality. Politics is a dirty business. They are all on the take. Get a big enough lobby and you can get anything. It’s all about dividing up the money and everyone gets the spoils except the middle class. Or haven’t you noticed? That’s one of the good things about Donald Trump. He’s not bending over for money like most of them.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
Churches are where people should learn morality. Politics is a dirty business. They are all on the take. Get a big enough lobby and you can get anything. It’s all about dividing up the money and everyone gets the spoils except the middle class. Or haven’t you noticed? That’s one of the good things about Donald Trump. He’s not bending over for money like most of them.
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So no laws are based on morality?
 
estesbob said:
The USCCB has no teaching authority.I have posted direct quotes from numerous Popes, Bishops and Cardinals as well as direct excerpts from Church documents. If you have anything whatsoever from the Church that supports your position please post it-but please not your interpretation of what it “means”. nothing I have posted needs any personal interpretation at all.
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“No teaching authority”? Not true. However, it is also not true that Cardinal Burke has a greater voice on the subject than the USCCB – or, for that matter, my local bishop, who does have teaching authority for the flock of his diocese.

“Faithful Citizenship” supports my position. If you want a source that requires no interpretation, you’re in the wrong Church. The issue is not nearly as black and white as you want it to be.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
Churches are where people should learn morality. Politics is a dirty business. They are all on the take. Get a big enough lobby and you can get anything. It’s all about dividing up the money and everyone gets the spoils except the middle class. Or haven’t you noticed? That’s one of the good things about Donald Trump. He’s not bending over for money like most of them.
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Except that Trump IS bending over for money for the general election. He self-funded for a while, but not going forward. Trump is (at least) as dirty as the next politician.
 
estesbob said:
So tell me-where is room for interpretation in :

*“No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what’s called the ‘right to choice’ of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion,”

“You may in some circumstances where you don’t have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone”

Cardinal Burke*
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Opinion, not doctrine.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
Why is it that the Bishops in the USCCB have no teaching authority, while Cardinal Burke does?
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Because Cardinal Burke has apostolic succession-the USCCB does not. Individual bishops have teaching authorities and if you can find one of them supporting your position please post it. And , of course, even the USCCB voters guide does not support your postion
 
LeafByNiggle said:
Opinion, not doctrine.
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*Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Pope Benedict XVI*
 
estesbob said:
Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Pope Benedict XVI
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This quote speaks only of the primary issues themselves. That is, it says that one may not in good faith disagree with the doctrine that abortion is everywhere and at all times immoral, while one may disagree with the Church on whether a specific war is a just or unjust war.

This quote does not speak about the extent to which the difference in moral weight of these issues transfers to the remote material cooperation with evil known as voting. So it does not make the point you are trying to make.
 
estesbob said:
Because Cardinal Burke has apostolic succession-the USCCB does not. Individual bishops have teaching authorities and if you can find one of them supporting your position please post it. And , of course, even the USCCB voters guide does not support your postion
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Are you claiming that the USCCB does not represent the individual bishops and is not a means by which those bishops, gathered together, do not express their teaching?
 
LeafByNiggle said:
Are you claiming that the USCCB does not represent the individual bishops and is not a means by which those bishops, gathered together, do not express their teaching?
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I am stating what the Church says. Bishops conferences have no teaching authority:
  1. In the Episcopal Conference the Bishops jointly exercise the episcopal ministry for the good of the faithful of the territory of the Conference; but, for that exercise to be legitimate and binding on the individual Bishops, there is needed the intervention of the supreme authority of the Church which, through universal law or particular mandates, entrusts determined questions to the deliberation of the Episcopal Conference.** Bishops, whether individually or united in Conference, cannot autonomously limit their own sacred power in favour of the Episcopal Conference, and even less can they do so in favour of one of its parts, whether the permanent council or a commission or the president.** This logic is quite explicit in the canonical norm concerning the exercise of the legislative power of the Bishops assembled in the Episcopal Conference: “The Conference of Bishops can issue general decrees only in those cases in which the common law prescribes it, or a special mandate of the Apostolic See, given either motu proprio or at the request of the Conference, determines it”.(77) In other cases “the competence of individual diocesan Bishops remains intact; and neither the Conference nor its president may act in the name of all the Bishops unless each and every Bishop has given his consent”.(78)
w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_22071998_apostolos-suos.html
 
LeafByNiggle said:
Are you claiming that the USCCB does not represent the individual bishops and is not a means by which those bishops, gathered together, do not express their teaching?
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Vatican II elevated the role of bishops conferences, Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI downplayed their role, and Pope Francis has again elevated their importance in his attempt to redistribute power and authority away from the Vatican and toward the local bishops and bishops conferences. If you favor Cardinal Burke’s approach to doctrinal and moral matters, you’d probably downplay the teaching authority of bishops conferences, such as the USCCB.

Cardinal Burke was recently demoted to a post as Patron of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, which is largely a ceremonial role usually given to a retired cardinal or as a secondary job to an active one. Not my bishop, not my Pope, but a favorite among U.S. Catholic culture warriors (including many who post on CA Forums) for his outspoken conservative views (and perhaps for his opposition to Pope Francis). Not my favorite, however.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
This quote speaks only of the primary issues themselves. That is, it says that one may not in good faith disagree with the doctrine that abortion is everywhere and at all times immoral, while one may disagree with the Church on whether a specific war is a just or unjust war.

This quote does not speak about the extent to which the difference in moral weight of these issues transfers to the remote material cooperation with evil known as voting. So it does not make the point you are trying to make.
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Can you find a single member of the magestrium that supports your position. If when they speak in opposition to your views you claim it is only their “opinion” surely you can find one of them expressing an “opinion” that supports your view?
 
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