Trust issues and the Eucharist

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garrett

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Hello all. Looking for some (name removed by moderator)ut.

My family and I attend a TLM nearly every week. Since first testing the traditional waters years ago I’ve consistently said that the only thing troubling me about the Latin mass isn’t the language per se, but the words of consecration being inaudible to the congregation.

When the topic of conversation turns to the Eucharist, I like to point out that Our Lord used very specific language that leaves no room for misinterpretation (as I like to put it: He didn’t say “take and eat before it gets cold.”). However you feel about Novus Ordo, it at least makes the celebrant’s re-enactment of Christ’s words equally unmistakable. In TLM the priest might be intoning the Latin equivalent of “take and eat, it’s my mom’s recipe” for all I know.

Trying my best to overcome these misgivings has only made things worse because I eventually realized there’s almost as much room for ambiguity in the NO mass. Sure I can hear and understand the words… but I haven’t the faintest knowledge of whether the bread on the altar was real before they were spoken. Of course wheat bread is called for but it could be rice or barley or potatoes for all I know. Mentally it just puts me in the exact same position as with the whispered words at TLM.

In short…

Naive Me Many Years Ago: “That is the body of Christ and therefore worthy of veneration”

Today: “That could theoretically be the body of Christ depending on several factors of which I am wholly ignorant and have no means by which to remedy my ignorance and is therefore definitely worthy of something or other.”

Any ideas on how to get over this?
 
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It does not matter if you hear every word specifically and clearly. What matters is if the Priest utters them - the same thing when you are absolved from your sins. Some parts of the mass are conversation between the Lord and the Priest/Celebrant. We are there, but need not hear this for the mass to be valid. This is by design.
 
If the priest is a Catholic priest, validly ordained, then you have no problem when he says mass. You can trust him that the mass is valid.
 
Consecration at Mass is one of those areas where you need to put your trust, not only in the priest, but in God. The whole thing is a mystery anyway. It is not something you control and it is not some magical mumbo jumbo spell cast by the priest to make Jesus show up. It is based on your faith.

It sounds like the Devil has introduced a lot of doubt in your mind about the Eucharist. I would suggest that you repeat the “Jesus, I trust in You” prayer on a regular basis and try to let go of this doubt.

The priest is not alone in front of the altar at these Masses you attend, especially not at the TLM. If anything was amiss with the Mass, one of the other persons involved with the Mass would very likely notice it. You also need to trust the priest to do his job correctly as he has been trained. Do you stand over your auto mechanic worrying that while your manual calls for part A to be installed he could actually be installing part B and you wouldn’t know the difference because you are not skilled at auto repair?
 
garrett said:
My family and I attend a TLM nearly every week. Since first testing the traditional waters years ago I’ve consistently said that the only thing troubling me about the Latin mass isn’t the language per se, but the words of consecration being inaudible to the congregation.
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St Catherine of Sienna also addressed this problem in her dialogues.There used to be an abuse (at least I hope it is used to be) where the priest was in mortal sin and so that he would not receive communion in that state would omit the consecration. No one would ever know because the canon of the mass was silent.
 
sevenswords said:
they actively tell people not to go to Mass and the Mass is invalid the pope is invalid and look for every opportunity to twist what the Pope says, etc etc.
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The OP said he attends the TLM. He didn’t say where. For all you know, it could be a diocesan Mass, or FSSP or another group in full communion with Rome. In which case, you’re making some very serious false charges.
 
PaulfromIowa said:
Do you have trust issues in other situations in life?
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Basically all other situations in life, but for obvious reasons I’m most concerned with the effects on my faith.
po18guy said:
It does not matter if you hear every word specifically and clearly. What matters is if the Priest utters them - the same thing when you are absolved from your sins. Some parts of the mass are conversation between the Lord and the Priest/Celebrant. We are there, but need not hear this for the mass to be valid. This is by design.
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Thank you but that’s precisely the problem - if you can’t hear the words, how do you know they have been spoken?
Tis_Bearself said:
The priest is not alone in front of the altar at these Masses you attend, especially not at the TLM. If anything was amiss with the Mass, one of the other persons involved with the Mass would very likely notice it.
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You’re not the first to mention this but I’ve seen stranger things happen.
Tis_Bearself said:
You also need to trust the priest to do his job correctly as he has been trained. Do you stand over your auto mechanic worrying that while your manual calls for part A to be installed he could actually be installing part B and you wouldn’t know the difference because you are not skilled at auto repair?
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I appreciate where you’re going with this but the example doesn’t work. It’s not accurate to say that you or I “wouldn’t know the difference,” because we’re talking about something simple like the words spoken by a celebrant and hosts placed on the altar rather than something complex like auto repair. Second, I’ve had a mechanic turn a $10,000 family car into a $1,000 haul-away with a series of simple mistakes that I almost certainly could have arrested had I been looking mistrustfully over his shoulder the whole time.
poche said:
St Catherine of Sienna also addressed this problem in her dialogues.There used to be an abuse (at least I hope it is used to be) where the priest was in mortal sin and so that he would not receive communion in that state would omit the consecration. No one would ever know because the canon of the mass was silent.
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Do you have a reference for this? Very interested.
angel12 said:
. . .
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Thank you.
 
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I am not sure how to get over trust issues from not understanding what is said other than learn the latin, and pray about it and maybe talk with a priest? I had the same issues when I had to attend a church that used the Latin mass once or twice years ago. That is what I did.
 
Reading your responses above, I feel like you have a bit of a control/ overscrupulousness issue and it might be better for you to discuss this with a priest rather than on the Internet.

I would recommend since you usually go to TLM that you speak to one of the TLM priests. I would further suggest that you not delay with this, because it seems like the thinking pattern has already grown to include the Ordinary Form Mass, and if you don’t talk to a priest and get some strategies to nip it in the bud, it could take over more areas to the detriment of your spiritual life.

Good luck and God bless.
 
garrett said:
Thank you but that’s precisely the problem - if you can’t hear the words, how do you know they have been spoken?
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This seems to be a bit of spiritual pride. It takes humility to trust a perfect stranger, however, Christ meant it when He said we need to be like little children.

Trust fall into the arms of the Church.
 
OP, you also don’t know if the intention of the priest was to confect the sacrament. No intent = no sacrament. IMO, it just doesn’t matter, from your standpoint. You could go through life receiving “fake Eucharist” due to some vast evil conspiracy, and God will know this and take it into consideration. As the saying goes, we are bound by the sacraments but God is not. Even if you don’t trust the priest or the maker of the hosts or ???, trust God.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Reading your responses above, I feel like you have a bit of a control/ overscrupulousness issue and it might be better for you to discuss this with a priest rather than on the Internet.
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Depending on the level of trust issues, a therapist might also be able to help.
 
Trust issues can be associated with untreated anxiety - they very often are, as anxiety is corrosive to faith and trust. If this is an issue, then conversations with your priest and doctor would seem to be in order.
 
garrett said:
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PaulfromIowa:
Do you have trust issues in other situations in life?
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Basically all other situations in life, but for obvious reasons I’m most concerned with the effects on my faith.
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This leapt out at me as soon as I read it. It makes me wonder if the OP might not have a slight case of OCD in the area of trust. I may be way off base as I am not expert in this area, but perhaps it would be prudent for the OP to see his primary care physician for a referral to a therapist in re: his trust issues.
 
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sevenswords said:
I said that The traditional Catholic movement seek to stop people going to Mass and they do so what is the false charge?
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That is the false charge. And you cannot possibly not know that.

Please answer (name removed by moderator)'s question above.
 
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OP, this level of distrust of everyone and everything isn’t healthy. When it pertains to the Consecration at Mass, you’re ultimately not trusting God. I would counsel you to seek spiritual direction with someone at your parish or counseling with a good Christian therapist to help you with these worries. God bless.
 
I would look at the words of institution repeated prior to the Eucharist not as some sort of incantation that magically changes the water and wine into the body and blood of Christ. Rather they are pronouncements of the promise that Christ made, which is that he shed his body and blood for us. This is actually a good reason not to attend a Latin Mass in my opinion unless you actually understand Latin.
 
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I agree. OP, if I was you, I would attend an English OF of the Mass. You will be able to clearly hear the words of Consecration and will (hopefully) be eased of your concerns that it was done incorrectly.

But no matter what, PLEASE get therapy/counseling/spiritual direction because you need to address the underlying trust issues as Father pointed out below.
 
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