Trusting the Catholic Church

[Truthstalker]

I just read an article on B16’s visit to the US. For Catholics, I suppose, it is implicit to trust the Church.

Protestants think of trust and the Catholic church as antithetical. Calvin and Luther both thought of Hus’s betrayal. Calvin knew many reformers who were burned in France, which contributed to his anger against the Church. There is a long and sad history of Catholic malevolence against Protestants, too long to go into here. The point is that Protestants look at the historical record and conclude that the Church is untrustworthy.

Secondly, Protestants compare Church teachings against Scripture and conclude that the Church has added or ignored certain things. The conclusion is that the Church is untrustworthy as an interpreter of Scripture.

Thirdly, many Protestants have had extremely negative experiences with Catholics in their own lives. The people who have hurt me the most have been Catholics. Practicing Catholics have done the most damage. On a personal level Protestants find Catholics are untrustworthy.

Fourthly, Protestants visit Catholic churches and observe how Catholics behave during Mass: disrespectfully leaving after the Eucharist or talking or not participating, slovenly receiving the Eucharist and otherwise behaving in a less than impressive manner.

Fifthly, some of the most strident, over-the-top posters on this Forum are ignorant of Catholicism and totally ignorant of Protestant belief. Some have pushed me away from Catholicism because I certainly do not want to drink out of whatever well they are drinking from.

Sixthly, Protestants look at Catholic claims for unity. While there seems to be a Catechism, it is widely disregarded. Many Catholics, as polls indicate, disbelieve it: Catholics don’t believe their own faith. I have attended Catholic homilies and teachings that are counter to basic Christianity, let alone Catholicism. At the last Mass I attended the priest’s homily centered around the point that God did His part, now it is totally up to us. Claims to teach truth ring very hollow.

Seventhly, Catholics seem to put the onus for the separation entirely on Protestant shoulders. An examination of history reveals there were mistakes on both sides. If an army unit falls apart, who gets the most blame? The leader. Instead Catholics seem to see their Church as sinless in this and nothing but sin in reformers.

Eighthly, there have been numerous historical falsifications in the cause of Catholicism, including the Isidorian decretals and interpolations in ancient texts to benefit the Catholic cause. Catholics cannot be trusted, it seems, to present an honest case for their religion.

Ninthly, Protestants observe things such as the abuse scandal and how Church officials covered it up. Kudos to B-16, but it was an awfully late response.

If this thread goes the way of most threads, each of these points will be hotly challenged. Instead I ask Catholics to realize this is how Protestants view their church, and that these are problems Catholics must overcome if they ever hope for unity with their separated brethren. So I ask Catholics how they plan to overcome these barriers if they really look for reunification and are not out simply to condemn Protestants. There’s been way too much of that on this Forum.

 

[Pax]

I have no answer to give that would overcome the barriers between Catholics and non-Catholics. We can certainly begin with charity and continue with patience. The former is foremost, but the latter is important too. When we discuss differences it is important not to take things too personally. Emotions sometimes run high and the charity can seem to be compromised. This is sometimes quite accidental, and patience can be most helpful.

If I have offended you at some point in the past I ask forgiveness. If others have offended you, I ask forgiveness on their behalf.

May the Lord’s blessing be with you always.

 

[bostonboy23]

what you have to remember(not you personally but protestants in general) is that the church is not god nor is the church made up of gods or are priests gods. priests and the pope as well even though he does communicate with Jesus is not a god. therefore the church will make mistakes. it is human nature to think that our religion is better and supior to anything else. its human nature to make our side look good and yours look bad. the church is not inflatable for some reason(even people in the church) people think that it is. the church while it is influenced by God is not gods they are fallible human beings.

also what people in general not just protestants need to remember is when you do go to church and participate in your faith you are not praying to the church or the priest or the pope you are praying to God. Jesus made the church to teach his gospel and to have a place where his followers could gather and pray.

i believe as most catholics do and as pope John Paul II and pope Benedict XVI showed we need our church to come together then and only then we this world be a better place for everyone. think of it like a family the family is never whole while you are not speaking to certain members of it.

 

[Stephen_C]

Oh well,
Guilty as charged. So there is a standard for Catholic’s then another for non-Catholic’s? I could start a list but what good would that do? As you can speak from your experience, I can only speak from mine. Growing up in a typical Catholic family in the 60’s. My hope for you is you someday find peace with what ever loophole you find. And you can finally leave this god awful forum behind.

God Bless you TS.
As alway’s you are in my prayers.

 

[Stephen_C]

Darn,
I should be in bed but this thread is bothering me a bit. So just wanted to say one more thing. I know this sounds like a cliché but the Catholic Church is a hospital for sinners. You know the wheat and weed thing. As I said in my earlier post, I grew up Catholic in a small town. Our Church was the center of our entire lives. I was not just a place to worship. There was a culture as well. Ok, I will not get into that. As there is “good” Catholic’s there were some that are Catholic in name only. But at least they are still going to Mass. They might not get it now, but just maybe they will before it is too late. You seem to see all the weeds but none of the wheat. Do they all make a beeline to the door after communion? Is there no one who comes early so they are able to pray in presence of Jesus before Mass? This is a little off topic but I just need to say this. I remember a few years back on this forum which is forever gone. You had shared a Mary moment with all us here. It touched me deeply. I don’t think I ever told you that. I just want to thank you for sharing it.

Again, God bless you TS.

 

[Tonks40]

If this thread goes the way of most threads, each of these points will be hotly challenged. Instead I ask Catholics to realize this is how Protestants view their church, and that these are problems Catholics must overcome if they ever hope for unity with their separated brethren. So I ask Catholics how they plan to overcome these barriers if they really look for reunification and are not out simply to condemn Protestants. There’s been way too much of that on this Forum.

I agree. There has been too much condemnation throughout history, and not only on this forum.

But like Stephen C said, we are a Church of sinners. We have the example of Christ to follow, not only His commands, but His actions as well. Understanding the protestant position can go a long way in helping them understand ours - but the “guns” on both sides, so-to-speak, have to be put down first before any sort of real dialogue can take place.

Pope Benedict XVI, I feel, knows this. His focus on this trip was not only to steer the American Church back and make amends (re: the sexual abuse scandal), but to also continue to foster an understanding amongst Catholics, non-Christians, and other Christian traditions. Let’s hope and pray that we can all take up the call towards understanding.

 

[Thing]

So I ask Catholics how they plan to overcome these barriers if they really look for reunification and are not out simply to condemn Protestants. There’s been way too much of that on this Forum.

It is’nt for Catholics to go unite to protestantism. Catholicisms door is always open as far as I’ve ever known.
Do protestants want to be reunited to Catholicism, many or most just don’t, I suppose.

 

[kepha1]

Protestants think of trust and the Catholic church as antithetical. Calvin and Luther both thought of Hus’s betrayal. Calvin knew many reformers who were burned in France, which contributed to his anger against the Church. There is a long and sad history of Catholic malevolence against Protestants, too long to go into here. The point is that Protestants look at the historical record and conclude that the Church is untrustworthy.

That is because Catholics have not engaged in a massive misinformation campaign that Protestantism has been doing for 400 years. The long sad history of Protestant persecution against Catholics and Protestants persecuting other Protestants that is DOCUMENTED by Protestant historians is ignored by most Protestants. But Protestants, to this day, write books that are full of errors and gross exaggerations that amount to nothing more than persecution. And Protestants think these “histories” are factual. Say the word “Inquisituion” or “Crusades” and watch the myths fly.

Secondly, Protestants compare Church teachings against Scripture and conclude that the Church has added or ignored certain things. The conclusion is that the Church is untrustworthy as an interpreter of Scripture.

Where in the Bible is the individual the trustworthy interpreter of Scripture? For Catholicism, on the contrary, the Bible came from the community of faith, the church, and we can understand the Bible only in the context of the community from which itcame. Thus, it is a distortion of the very nature of Scripture if a person attempts to interpretthe Bible in isolation from the community of faith and the Sacred Tradition that gave birth to the Bible in the first place.

Interestingly enough in Catholic Tradition the four uses of Scripture corresponded to the Quadriga, the four-fold method of exegesis for the Bibleused in the medieval period: Literal (teaching), Analogical (reproof), Prophetic (correction), and Moral (training in righteousness).

The protestant reformers rejected this and tried to reduce biblical exegesis to the literal-historical method within a Nominalist world-view. In doing so, they were considered by their Catholic contemporaries as being unbiblical for ignoring 2Tim 3:16.

Fourthly, Protestants visit Catholic churches and observe how Catholics behave during Mass: disrespectfully leaving after the Eucharist or talking or not participating, slovenly receiving the Eucharist and otherwise behaving in a less than impressive manner.

Maybe they have to pee or are double parked, or are late to get to work at the hospital. Most Catholics don’t like the apparent disrespect, but we put up with it because we don’t jump to conclusions.

 

[kepha1]

Seventhly, Catholics seem to put the onus for the separation entirely on Protestant shoulders. An examination of history reveals there were mistakes on both sides. If an army unit falls apart, who gets the most blame? The leader. Instead Catholics seem to see their Church as sinless in this and nothing but sin in reformers.

“both sides were to blame” is admitted in the Catechism, (817) the Pope apologized for the behavior of some Catholics who abused their power and ignored Church teachings, but where is the admission or apologies from Protestants??? Don’t hold your breath.

We ADMIT we had scoundrels for popes, about 10 out of 265. Catholics don’t see the Church as sinless, we see the Church as teaching the truth. It’s the same boring nonsense: infallibility = impeccability. If you can find a Protestant church that is not morally compromised on contraception, let me know.

The moral deficiencies of the original Protestant so-called “reformers” were the MOTIVE, for their apostasy. It was not merely that they were sinners. They were sinners who apostatized BECAUSE of their sins.

If Henry VIII did not want to divorce his sacramentally married wife, marry his chippie mistress, steal Church lands and use the money to pay off his personal debts, England would still be Catholic.

If Martin Luther did not suffer from severe bipolar manic-depressant illness with frank psychosis during his periods of mania, he would never have invented a purely formal definition of ‘righteousness’ that was evacuated of all moral content and inspired millions of others to settle for a sub-Christian notion of discipleship…

If Zwingli the priest had not been a sex crazed rogue who seduced the young women in his congregation…

If Calvin had not been an egomaniac who had murderous intent against anyone who had the temerity to disagree with his views…

If Knox had not been part of the assassination team that murdered Cardinal Beaton…

The faults of the so-called “reformers” are central to their apostasy.

To turn around and complain that some Catholics may not have been nice is besides the point. No matter how mean some of them were, they stayed in the Church. Jesus said that he had come to save sinners, not righteous people. In light of that, claiming that Catholics were sinners therefore someone needed to found a new Church makes no sense! Sinners need to be in THE Church and no other.

 

[thistle]

I just read an article on B16’s visit to the US. For Catholics, I suppose, it is implicit to trust the Church.

Protestants think of trust and the Catholic church as antithetical. Calvin and Luther both thought of Hus’s betrayal. Calvin knew many reformers who were burned in France, which contributed to his anger against the Church. There is a long and sad history of Catholic malevolence against Protestants, too long to go into here. The point is that Protestants look at the historical record and conclude that the Church is untrustworthy.

What about the killing of thousands of Catholics by the Protestants under the reign of Elizabeth I of England?

 

[richardwy]

So I ask Catholics how they plan to overcome these barriers

I look for someone who seeks genuinely truth. As opposed to someone who propounds what they’ve heard over and over.

Also, someone who has some dissatisfaction when it comes to historical questions opposed to someone who is a happy Methodist for example.

 

[Newbie2]

Maybe they have to pee or are double parked, or are late to get to work at the hospital. Most Catholics don’t like the apparent disrespect, but we put up with it because we don’t jump to conclusions.

“Maybe they have to pee…”

Most times one doen’t need to jump to conclusions when they go roaring out of the parking lot.

Anyway, the OP has an interesting point. Going on the assumption that the RCC is the original Church, all Protestant churches are pretty much free to ignore part or all of Catholic doctrine in order to formulate their own…and if there’s not one to suit one’s tastes, there’ll be a different one along in a year or so that just might.

Assuming also that we are the “standard” by which Christianity is “judged”, the OP has a valid point. The perfect Church is populated by and administered by imperfect and sinful people, and it’s not a bad thing to perhaps step back and consider that.

 

[Camron]

I just read an article on B16’s visit to the US. For Catholics, I suppose, it is implicit to trust the Church.

I thought this was good post which really got to the heart of the matter. Most people’s rejection of the Catholic faith is not about interpretations of the Bible, or this thing or that thing, or any other convoluted reasoning for that matter, but rather whether or not the history of the Church justifies someone’s conviction to no longer trust the Catholic Church.

Let’s move forward on this one by comparing and contrasting the behavior of the Catholic Church in the New Testament with the behavior of the Jews during the Old Testament.

Protestants think of trust and the Catholic church as antithetical. Calvin and Luther both thought of Hus’s betrayal. Calvin knew many reformers who were burned in France, which contributed to his anger against the Church. There is a long and sad history of Catholic malevolence against Protestants, too long to go into here. The point is that Protestants look at the historical record and conclude that the Church is untrustworthy.

There is also a long and sad history of Jewish malevolence against Gentiles, too long to go into here. The point is that Gentiles looked at the historical record and concluded that the Jews were untrustworthy

Secondly, Protestants compare Church teachings against Scripture and conclude that the Church has added or ignored certain things. The conclusion is that the Church is untrustworthy as an interpreter of Scripture.

Gentiles likewise compared Jewish teachings against their own religious writings and concluded that the Jews had stolen, added or ignored certain things. Their conclusion was that the Jews were untrustworthy as an interpreter of religious writings.

Thirdly, many Protestants have had extremely negative experiences with Catholics in their own lives. The people who have hurt me the most have been Catholics. Practicing Catholics have done the most damage. On a personal level Protestants find Catholics are untrustworthy.

Many Gentiles have, during the period of the Old Testament, also had extremely negative experiences with Jews in their own lives. The people who have hurt them the most have been Jews. Practicing Jews have done the most damage. On a personal level Gentiles have found Jews to be untrustworthy.

Fourthly, Protestants visit Catholic churches and observe how Catholics behave during Mass: disrespectfully leaving after the Eucharist or talking or not participating, slovenly receiving the Eucharist and otherwise behaving in a less than impressive manner.

Gentiles have also visited the outsides of the Temple of Solomon and observed how Jews behave during the Passover: disrespectfully leaving after the Passover or talking or not participating, slovenly receiving the Passover meal and otherwise behaving in a less than impressive manner

Fifthly, some of the most strident, over-the-top posters on this Forum are ignorant of Catholicism and totally ignorant of Protestant belief. Some have pushed me away from Catholicism because I certainly do not want to drink out of whatever well they are drinking from.

On this one I’m quite sure that some of the most strident, over-the-top posters on other Forums (such as C.A.R.M.) are ignorant of Protestantism and totally ignorant of Catholic belief too. I’m also quite sure that some have pushed others away from Protestantism because they certainly do not want to drink out of whatever well they are drinking from. I see this happening here too.

 

[Camron]

Sixthly, Protestants look at Catholic claims for unity. While there seems to be a Catechism, it is widely disregarded. Many Catholics, as polls indicate, disbelieve it: Catholics don’t believe their own faith. I have attended Catholic homilies and teachings that are counter to basic Christianity, let alone Catholicism. At the last Mass I attended the priest’s homily centered around the point that God did His part, now it is totally up to us. Claims to teach truth ring very hollow.

Again, many Gentiles have looked at Jewish claims for unity (cf. the 12 Tribes). While there seemed to be nation of Israel, it was widely disregarded. In fact, it eventually separated and went at war with itself. Many Jews, as the blood baths indicated, disbelieved in their own unity: Many Jews did not believe their own faith. The same thing happened with “false teachers” amongst the Jews as well.

Seventhly, Catholics seem to put the onus for the separation entirely on Protestant shoulders. An examination of history reveals there were mistakes on both sides. If an army unit falls apart, who gets the most blame? The leader. Instead Catholics seem to see their Church as sinless in this and nothing but sin in reformers.

This is a good point. The Gentiles (who didn’t really know any better) did not blaspheme God’s Holy Name as much as the Jews (who did know better). The people who are directly called by God are held more responsible than those who are not. As Romans 2:24 recalls, “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

John 19:11​

Eighthly, there have been numerous historical falsifications in the cause of Catholicism, including the Isidorian decretals and interpolations in ancient texts to benefit the Catholic cause. Catholics cannot be trusted, it seems, to present an honest case for their religion.

There’s also been numerous historical falsifications in the cause of he Jews too. Apparently Jews cannot be trusted, it seems, to present an honest case for their religion.

In short, in all these things, the Jews were still considered “God’s Chosen People” despite their numerous failings. This is perhaps something you need to reflect upon when asking these questions. Even despite all these failings God most certainly did expect his chosen people to follow the leaders of Israel, even if “following” meant “correcting their own leaders” from time to time.

Ninthly, Protestants observe things such as the abuse scandal and how Church officials covered it up. Kudos to B-16, but it was an awfully late response.

But at least it’s happening. In fact, it’s always been happening, precisely because their have always been many Catholics throughout history who have tried to call people back to an honest version of their own Catholic faith. If others are not willing to listen, the faith itself cannot be blamed. Those who have done wrong are to blame.

If this thread goes the way of most threads, each of these points will be hotly challenged. Instead I ask Catholics to realize this is how Protestants view their church, and that these are problems Catholics must overcome if they ever hope for unity with their separated brethren. So I ask Catholics how they plan to overcome these barriers if they really look for reunification and are not out simply to condemn Protestants. There’s been way too much of that on this Forum.

My own honest answer is for both sides to admit we’ve done things wrong in the past and ask for forgiveness. This is how it happened in the Old Testament. This is how it will happen in the New Testament too.

And nothing else will ever bring the Church back into unity. Nothing.

And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night?

Will he keep putting them off?

I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly.

However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?

Luke 18:7-9​

 

[6glargento]

another thing to note is that no matter how corrupt the isrealites got, God never said to any of the prophets “these people have become to corrupt, you need to separate yourselves from them and start a new religion.”

 

[clmowry]

Truthstalker:
If this thread goes the way of most threads, each of these points will be hotly challenged. Instead I ask Catholics to realize this is how Protestants view their church,** and that these are problems Catholics must overcome **if they ever hope for unity with their separated brethren. So I ask Catholics how they plan to overcome these barriers if they really look for reunification and are not out simply to condemn Protestants. There’s been way too much of that on this Forum.

Arguments about who is the “offender” and who is the “offended” aside, it has been my experience that there is very little that the presumed “offender” can do to change the view of the “offended”.

In general the “offenses” are a list of things that the “offended” must overcome, not the “offender”.

It does not matter how many times the “offender” apologizes for some past mistake, or what restitutions they try to make.

Until the “offended” accepts the apology and moves on there is pretty much nothing the “offender” can do to reconcile with the “offended”.

“Catholics” will “be” all of those things to any particular Protestant as long as “Catholics” are the target of the animosity of the Protestant that chooses to make them so (and vice versa.)

Forgiveness is an act that must be taken by the “offended”.

Chuck

 

[donmaximuso27]

A response to the first post:

First of all, Protestants completely disregard sacred tradition, and therefore should be distrusted for their interpretaions of the Bible. We as Catholics embrace the works of the early church fathers and therefore have a correct, enlightening interpretation. Perhaps you should look at the reasons why Luther ripped out the Apocrypha and said horrible things about the Book of James. But I guess following an extremely small, minority group of Jewish scholars from the early centuries gives him the right to contradict the canonization of scripture from the Council of Carthage. Furthermore, the Book of James basically discredited Luther’s view of the non-importance of works; so, in response, he blasted the writings.

If you cannot trust the Church because of the abominations committed by some of its members, why should we trust any Protestant sect? Luther promoted antisemitism, Queen Elizabeth I and Oliver Cromwell persecuted tens of thousands of Catholics, Catholic immigrants in the U.S. were given nothing during the age of immigration (1840-1930), many were forced into the army, such as the Irish in the Civil War, and many were deprived of the welfare given to natural-born American citizens; this was largely the result of the Protestant-driven society that dominated the government. How about the Church of Ireland that prohibited Catholics from owning land, horses, and livestock? This caused thousands to perish. The religious wars in France and Germany, mainly caused by the Protestants, were many more times more destructive to human life then the Inquisition, there is no comparison. Yet, we are to believe that the Catholics are the only that persecute.
I can tell you from peronal experience that I have never ecountered more anti-Christian acting people then fundamentalist Baptists, Pentecostals, and Evangelicals. How they treat others outside of their churches is truly an abomination. Yet, I, despite seeing their horrible acts, do not mistakenly believe the majority of them act in such ways. Your examples, however, use slippery slope like there is no tomorrow. You say Catholics have treated you badily; you say Catholics leave after Communion, and recieve the Eucharist without reverence; you say one man, Isidore Mercator, wrote forged documents. Yet, you would have us believe we should distrust the Church because of these people, who by observation, can be seen to make up 10% of the Catholic population. I never once have attended a mass where the *majority * of Catholics recieve irreverently, or leave after recieving. Nor have I met a *majority *of Catholics who treat others in horrible ways, or who write forged documents to support Catholicism. You simply cannot put into question whether one should or should not trust the Church, basing your argument on isolated incidences. This entire argument is a logical fallacy.

 

[Truthstalker]

Let’s see…

I should trust the Catholic Church because the Protestants are worse.

I should trust the Catholic Church because I must forgive them.

I should trust the Catholic Church because every observation I have made about them is out of my own experience and therefore wrong?

Funny. Few seem to have read the entire OP, but instead ripped into where they thought I was going without bothering to consider I was talking about other things.

Yes, forgiveness is important. I am a big fan of reconciliation. I would like to see the universal Church as one. Many of the reformers’ charges against the Church are now moot. I am working on trust issues with the Catholic Church, and for the most part the answers given so far do not iencourage me to trust Catholics. I say you killed ten, you will point out 20 we killed. A body count goes nowhere. I could readily come up with another 10 reasons why the Catholic Church is untrustworthy. To my dismay, instead of explaining why it is trustworthy, most people would rather attack. That makes me wonder if they have trust issues with the Church as well.

How is the Church going to reconcile with those who have every reason not to trust it? You can’t respond by saying the reasons are illegitimate, or that those not trusting it are worse sinners, so shut up and submit. Maybe that is why you are Catholic. But I would not want to be a Catholic for such a reason. I assume your reasons for trusting the Catholic Church are better. Tell me what they are.

 

[Truthstalker]

By the way, in terms of majority apathy, I went to the Holy Thursday service at the local parish this year. Membership: some 1,400 families. Attendence at this Day of Obligation (as the priest stated it was) was less than 200 individuals, including me. It was the only service that day. I would assume that most if not all Catholics understand that they are supposed to hear Mass on a DoO, and that missing it is a mortal sin, etc. The implication is that they don’t care, or don’t trust the Church to help them with their salvation, or are in rebellion, or something. I was expecting the place to be packed and it was less than on a typical Sunday.

This does not help the credibility of the Church, when the vast majority of its members disregard basic teachings.

 

[donmaximuso27]

I trust the Catholic Church because as a Lutheran, I was led by the Holy Spirit to the only True Holy and Apostolic Church. I trust the Church because as Scripture states, it is the only Church founded by Christ and it is the only Church that is protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error, from being damaged by the gates of hell, (Matt 16:18). Because of its apostolic authority given to it by Christ, which has survived in our Bishop, the Pope, from its foundations in Peter, we are the only Church, with the exception of the Orthodox, that has valid sacraments. The Church was founded by Christ, and that is clearly evident in Scripture.

Will I lose my trust because of a few perverted priests, murderous monarchs, or unfaithful members? Of course not. I have the stain of original sin, and will sin throughout my life, as will all Catholics. Why should I lose trust in the One, True Church because its members are not free of sin? Tradition shows us that the Church, as Scripture stated, will never teach error regarding faith and morals; however, it does not say it will be sinless, as we are human! Nevertheless, sin committed by the Church will never separate me from the true doctrine and sacramental life that was given to us by Christ. I think that is quite a good reason to trust the Church. If one loses trust in the Church, they lose trust in God himself. For it was God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who founded the Church. To lose trust in what He built is to lose trust in Christ Himself.

As for the Catholics that miss mass on days of obligation, it is only a mortal sin if it is of 1) grave matter, 2) they know of its gravity, and 3) if they choose to sin by their own will. You cannot simply assume everybody that missed that mass was committing a mortal sin, that term must be carefully applied. And again, the sin of other members and the lack of faith of other members is not the Church! Look at what the Church is at heart, the doctrines, tradition, and apostolic authority. If you keep focusing on the sin and lack of faith of Church members, you will never be pleased by the Catholic Church, nor any other denomination for that matter. As a Lutheran I never witnessed more theological and liturgical abuses; however, when I was led to the Catholic Church, I knew I was not entering a sinless community of 100% devout members. This will never occur, for humanity will never be perfect, until the renewal of the earth of course. You cannot simply focus on the sin of its members, this will lead you nowhere regarding the truth that is the Catholic Church.