Trying to evangelize

[Verita]

As the years pass the message becomes distorted and corrupt with false doctrines so by the time the Catholic Church is founded in the 4th century, the message is different from what the bible teaches.

Blatantly false, obviously. Tell him to pick up a decent history book (by a reliable historian) and also refer him to the Early Church Fathers.

It looks like you are going to have to answer his purgatory challenge if he’s ever going to listen to you. I recommend coming right out and saying that the word “purgatory” cannot be found in the bible. (Along with a great many other words such as Trinity and Incarnation.) Point out that the word is just a name or description. The doctrine of purgatory can be found here:

1Corinthians 3
10. According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
11. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13. each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.
14. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; **but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. **

Ask him what this means. It cannot refer to Hell, since no one who goes to Hell can be saved. But in Heaven there is no loss and no fire. So what is this refering to? It is referring to the state of purification a Christian sinner must go through before entering Heaven. Make sure that you make him realize the idea of purgatory as a place such as Heaven or Hell are a place. Emphasize the understanding of it as a state of purification.

 

[Verita]

Right on and strong work on the Scripture references, Verita. BUT, I think Andrew should be very careful NOT to challenge that Sacred Scripture is the Word of God. I think this would be confusing as such, for as Catholics, we, too (and first, by the way) believe that Sacred Scripture is the written Word of God. HOWEVER, we do not believe that it is the ONLY Word of God. We believe that the written Word is truly God-breathed, holy, true, profitable for teaching, reproof and correction and training in holiness. We should not attempt to challenge this person’s faulty assertion that Scripture is the ONLY source for truth by making a statement that is contrary to what we believe and the Church teaches.

You are right, I should have said challenge his assertion that it is the only Word of God, or source of the Word of God. Jesus, of course, is the source. All revelation from God is His Word. The Bible is considered part of the word of God because it contains part of His revelation.

 

[Nita]

Harpazo,
I underlined a couple sections in your response that may need some correcting.

For some logic. Jesus is the Savior of the world, there is no doubt about that right? He is the New Covanent. In the Old, the Holy of Holies was carried in an Ark. Jesus himself was carried in an Ark, Mary. For Jesus to be completely free from sin, Mary must have been too. Holy Spirit+Mary=Jesus. If Mary were tainted with sin, then Jesus would inherit that trait. Is it so farfetched for God to save a woman from sin? No. He saved Adam and Eve from sin. We all know that “the wages of sin is death.” If Mary never commited a sin, then why would God allow Mary to die and corrupt in the grave? Elijah was assumed into Heaven, yet he still inherited Original Sin. Someone must be extremely Holy to be able to carry Our Lord. Don’t you agree? God chose Mary.

The Church does not teach that it was necessary for Mary to be sinless in order to be Jesus’ mother. (That logic would lead to the necessity of St. Anne to be sinless so Mary could be born sinless) Mary’s Immaculate Conception doesn’t depend on human logic. It was a gift bestowed on her by God. The most I’ve seen written by Church fathers as to “why” - is that it was fitting.

Also, the Church does not have a definitive teaching as to whether Mary died or not. The Church does, of course, teach that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven.

Regarding the following words by your correspondent:

It is one of the greatest reasons why there are thousands of Protestant denominations. I say that you have invalid beliefs not because I’m spiteful or hate you, but because I care about your salvation.

Ask him why it’s perfectly okay for Protestants to interpret the Bible as they understand it - but not for Catholics. Or does your friend also denounce all Protestants who interpret passages differently from him? Does he think their salvation is also in jeopardy?

Keep up the good work!

Nita

 

[Harpazo]

Thanks again all of you. So far I haven’t had a reply from him in a while. I’ve taken into account all of the things everyone has said. I’ll admit how hard it actually is to evangelize. At first I thought it would be easy considering the Church is the Truth. I was a bit arrogant at first, but I’ve been corrected long ago. Those apologists deserve a lot of credit.

I must say, it truly means a lot to me having such orthodox Catholics help me out like this. I’m still new in the faith and trying to defend it without coming across as a jerk.

In Pax Christi
Andrew

 

[JaneFrances]

Harpazo,
I underlined a couple sections in your response that may need some correcting.

The Church does not teach that it was necessary for Mary to be sinless in order to be Jesus’ mother. (That logic would lead to the necessity of St. Anne to be sinless so Mary could be born sinless) Mary’s Immaculate Conception doesn’t depend on human logic. It was a gift bestowed on her by God. The most I’ve seen written by Church fathers as to “why” - is that it was fitting.

Nita

Thank you Nita for bringing this up. . .I didn’t catch it on my first read through, but it is such an important point to make!

I have heard it explained this way, by Scott Hahn, I believe:

Did Jesus come to fulfill the Law in all righteousness? Of course, he did. Does this include the commandment to honor your parents? Of course it does. Church teaching on the Immaculate Conception and the sinlessness of Mary recognizes the perfection of Jesus’ salvific work as a Son.

He perfectly loves and honors His mother by saving her from the moment of her conception. NOT because he “had” to, but because he wanted to. Jesus Christ is God. If we, imperfect and sinful, strive to honor our parents, how much more would God the Son honor his only biological human parent? It is not necessary, but it is fitting. After all, God could have chosen to enter this world in any way he saw fit. He could have arrived in a little basket, Moses style, to Mary and Joseph, but instead he chose to be born of a Virgin. There is something in that. Mary’s virginity isn’t just a curious Biblical novelty. It is perfectly and intentionally designed by God that her untouched body would be complemented by a stainless soul in order that she could become the perfect vessel to bring forth the Lord. She was the tabernacle, the Ark of theNew Covenant. To read the detail and particularity with which the Lord designed the Ark, only strengthens the case for the attention and perfect design with which he created the Blessed Mother.

 

[Nita]

She was the tabernacle, the Ark of theNew Covenant. To read the detail and particularity with which the Lord designed the Ark, only strengthens the case for the attention and perfect design with which he created the Blessed Mother.

Like you, JaneFrances, I love reading about the OT Ark of the Covenant and recognizing it as a “type” of Mary. Pure gold within and without - the Immaculate Conception.

Nita

 

[Harpazo]

Like you, JaneFrances, I love reading about the OT Ark of the Covenant and recognizing it as a “type” of Mary. Pure gold within and without - the Immaculate Conception.

Nita

I sincerely agree. That’s one of the first things that “broke the ice” with my conception of Marian Doctrines.

If you haven’t been doing so, please pray for this guy. I barely know him (only through debating on that forum).Please pray for him to see the true Church.

Alright onto the latest update:

Jesus himself said tradition was wrong. “Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” Mark 7:13. Or if you refuse to believe that verse read the following: “They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.” Mark 7:7. So, the catholic church tradition is WRONG!!! The rules/traditions of men, which the popes and vatican created many, are against the word of God. Case closed.

Your proof for purgatory is laughable. These verses don’t imply that there is a serperate place for punishment. And forgiveness does mean acceptance into heaven. Roman 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord’, and believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” That’s all it takes. And good works don’t give you grace, faith does in Jesus does. Ephesians 2:8-10 “For it by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” God only wants faith in him, not good works or deeds which God expects us to do regardless. Matthew 4:4 clearly says the bible is the sole authority, if chose to deny it than you’re saying Jesus is wrong. A very bad thing to do.
Do not try to contridict these three verses with other verses. The bible never contridicts itself; and if you do try to contridict it, I would seriously question whether or not you’re a christian. Because if you believe that you’re defacing the word of God. And don’t try to reason that the church created the bible. True it did assemble the bible, but the 66 books that the bible contains were written before the official founding of the Roman Catholic church in the 4th century.

I’ll post mine in another post, because it is quite lengthy.

 

[Harpazo]

Jesus is the Word of God, not soley a book. To say that, is most likely heretical. Simply read the opening lines of St. John’s Gospel. When you try to make verses fit your theology, it opens up a Pandora’s Box of sorts. For example, the passages from Mark, are clearly out of context. You know that just as well as I do. I used to preach the same verses as a Protestant. Because your own “authority” gives you the right to interpret Scripture on your own, which in turn, allows others to think they can do the same. I will refer you to 2 Peter 3:16 Just look in a phone book. Christianity is not unified.

Correction my dear friend. The 73 books where compiled into the Bible we know today at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage. Martin Luther took them out. Because of his deeds, the Church called the Council of Trent to affirm to the faithful Catholics that those books were indeed canonical.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon, alsoscripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

Let’s play a game of logic and reason. When the founding fathers of our great nation we call America, finished the Constitution what did they do? Did they make multiple copies of it and distribute it and tell the American people to “interpret it on your own?” No. They gave us a Supreme Court to interpret it. As Catholics, we trust Jesus enough to not abandon us. We know that he wouldn’t leave us without someone to interpret Scriptures. Please read Matthew 16:18-20. You can clearly see that Christ is giving authority to someone. Who? St. Peter. If you don’t believe the Catholic Church is this Church, then you would ultimately have to believe that Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior failed. To me, that is utterly wrong. But to each his own.

Which verse in the book says that the Bible is to be named “the Bible?” Tell me. You’ve darted around many questions I have asked you, yet I’ve answered every single one of your questions. Maybe not to your liking

Now, what is your understanding of Purgatory? Instead of trying to label your view of it, as a Catholic view, why don’t you tell me what you view is? Then I can firmly answer your question truthfully and doctrinally correct. To say you don’t have a warped view of Catholicism, is to say that polar bears fly through my town, and can talk…

So I please ask you to answer some of my challenges. It would be mutually beneficial

God bless you in this season of Advent.

In Pax Christi
Andrew

*Other verses to consider about Tradition. Catholic Tradition isn’t meaningless. It comes from the Apostles themselves who received it from Christ. To say Catholic Traditions is against God is blasphemous at best:
1 Cor 11:2
2 Thess 2:15
2 Thess 3:6
John 21:25
Acts 20:35
2 Peter 1:20
Romans 10:17
1 Cor 15:1-2
Mark 16:15

The support here is amazing. You all are wonderful people. I’m terribly blessed to have found this forum. God bless you all.

In Pax Christi
Andrew

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

When he inetivably attempts to say that Christ wasn’t refering to Peter when he said “upon this rock” because the Greek words used were Petros and Petra meaning “stone and Boulder” You’ll need to remind him of the following:

1. Petra and Petros are also masculine and feminine forms of the same word.
2. Jesus spoke aramaic and there was only one word for rock…Kepha.
3. What was the symbolism of handing him the “keys to the Kingdom” (Matt: 16:19), what did that mean to Jews reading hte Gospel message at the time? Point him to Isaiah 22:22, you know the verse Jesus was alluding to when he talked to Peter. This indicated that the person with the key is second only to the King. So what would Jesus giving the key to Peter mean here?
4. Why is Peter ALWAYS mentioned first when he is with the Apostles?

Also, on the purgatory issue, ask him where the verse in 1 Cor 13-15 is alluding to? Where can you 1. Be dead AND 2. Suffer AND 3. Be saved?

 

[JaneFrances]

First, I totally agree that prayer may be the best way to touch this young man. His tone is such that I’m sensing frustration. I would not be the least bit surprised if he discontinues this conversation if you press him too hard on certain issues. The very fact that he has already called into question your Christianity is a sure sign that the end is approaching.

Now on to some thoughts:

Jesus himself said tradition was wrong. “Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” Mark 7:13.

I think you treated this comment well in pointing out the contextual inadequacies of his interpretation and your additional Scriptural references supporting Tradition.

Or if you refuse to believe that verse read the following: “They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.” Mark 7:7. So, the catholic church tradition is WRONG!!!

Obviously, this is an emotional response. It is part of his fiber. The Bible is right, so the Catholic Church is wrong. It is sad.

The rules/traditions of men, which the popes and vatican created many, are against the word of God. Case closed.

I’m thinking this is nearing the end of his rope. “Case closed” is a good indicator that he will not be open to listening to another point of view.

Your proof for purgatory is laughable.

Again, he’s getting emotional here. He has no arguement and has not responded to your points, so it is difficult to respond to this.

These verses don’t imply that there is a serperate place for punishment. And forgiveness does mean acceptance into heaven. Roman 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord’, and believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” That’s all it takes. And good works don’t give you grace, faith does in Jesus does. Ephesians 2:8-10 “For it by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

I think you are on the right track in trying to get him to speak your language. You can not have a discussion about Purgatory if he doesn’t even know what the word means, which is obviously the case.

God only wants faith in him, not good works or deeds which God expects us to do regardless.

This is just too simplistic. God doesn’t ONLY want faith. He wants EVERYTHING. This is never more explicit than in the gospel story about the rich young man. He asks our Lord what he must to do follow him. Obviously, he is a man of faith as he calls upon Jesus for instruction. He has observed the commandments. Then, Jesus tells him that in order to follow him he must sell all that he has. . .We know how this ends. The man goes away sad because he is very rich and this one last thing. . .this one last deed that God wants of him, he can not do. This story is ours, too. He doesn’t JUST want anything, he wants our everything. If this young man truly believes that God only wants faith in him, he is ignorant of the entire message of Jesus Christ which always requires of us charity towards others, taking up the Cross, and offering our own bodies as living sacrifices in worship. Faith is not enough.

 

[JaneFrances]

Matthew 4:4 clearly says the bible is the sole authority,

NO, actually Matthew 4:4 says “It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.”

Your friend has added to Scripture that which is not there. This is an important point. You counter it very well. Not “every word that comes from the mouth of God” is written down in the Bible.

How, for instance, would your friend repsond to this from Matthew 23?:

“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.”

Here, our Lord is clearly recognizing the extra-Biblical authority of the Pharisees. . .he does not say, “You must obey the Scriptures and do everything they tell you.” No, he says, you MUST obey the Pharisees. . .the brood of vipers. . .the hypocrites! Not because they are examples of perfect behavior, but because of their God-given teaching authority. This is an authority that Scripture itself does not claim to monopolize. And it is an authority that Jesus Christ, our Lord, instructs his disciples to obey.

if chose to deny it than you’re saying Jesus is wrong.

You, of course, are not denying that God’s word is true. You are just contending that God’s word is not Scripture ALONE.

Do not try to contridict these three verses with other verses. The bible never contridicts itself; and if you do try to contridict it, I would seriously question whether or not you’re a christian. Because if you believe that you’re defacing the word of God.

YIKES!

And don’t try to reason that the church created the bible.

Did you ever say that the church “created” the Bible? I don’t think he has a good enough grasp of history to dicuss this topic.

True it did assemble the bible, but the 66 books that the bible contains were written before the official founding of the Roman Catholic church in the 4th century.

Again, I would just urge you to engage him by asking for his documentation of the “official founding of the Roman Catholic church in the 4th century.” And while he’s at it, it might benefit this conversation if he could provide the documentation that lists the 66 books of “the Bible” as the correct canon–of course, this documentation would have to be prior to the “founding” of the Cathiolic Church. This could be amusing.

You know, I used to engaged in conversations like this, but over time I got exhausted from the tireless hours I would spend trying to refute every misconception and every false charge only to find that my opponent didn’t really intend to address my responses. There’s a script and it seems at this point that he is sticking to it. Your job, if you intend to continue this endeavor, is to get him out his emotional cocoon and off script enough to actually LISTEN to what you are saying. It will take a great deal of patience on your part, but asking questions of him is often the best way to circle the wagons and get into a real conversation.

 

[Verita]

Like JaneFrances, I don’t think this conversation is going to go much further unless you can change the format a bit. Covering many topics briefly in each reply just isn’t going to work. You need to get the conversation focused on one topic at a time, or even two, but no more. And you need to be able to cover that topic fully before moving on to the next one.

Also, I would watch your tone a bit. I know he is certainly sounding a bit arrogant, but make sure your tone doesn’t beging to reflect his. In your last reply it seemed to me you were sounding a bit too superior. The best way to make an impression on him is to answer him always with charity.

Purgatory really seems to be an issue for him, understandably. When I was a protestant it was for me too. But I think it’s something that has to wait for later, if you can manage it. I would freely admit to him that there is no scriptural “proof” for purgatory. The Church doesn’t use the Bible as “proof” of anything, because the Church takes all of its teachings directly from the Apostles. Use this to segway into a more thorough discussion of sola scriptura. You’re never going to get through to him unless you can shake some of his “Bible Only” misconceptions.

Explain to him that the Church considers the Bible to be the inspired word of God, but not the only source of the word of God. Use one of those verses I posted earlier to show how the word was taught by the Apostles through the spoken word. Ask him if he truly believes that everything Jesus and the Apostles taught is written in the New Testament. Then cite the verse from the end of John I used showing that not everything Jesus did was written down and indeed couldn’t be. Remember that John’s gospel was written very late and so he would have known about the other Apostles’ writings.

Also explain to him that though the Bible was the inspired word of God, we don’t have a single original copy of any of the books in it. All of the oldest manuscripts we have are copies and many of them disagree with each other in small ways. How does he know that the Bible we have today is truly was the authors wrote? How does he know that all of the letters in the NT truly belong there? Remind him that these letters weren’t written with the intention that they would be part of a great book of scripture. Most of them are addressed to a select group of people, some to only one person, some are obviously a private communication (Titus, Philemon). So how does he know that these books are supposed to be in the Bible. Surely the Bible says that all scripture is profitable for teaching etc but how does he know that these letters are scripture. As far as I know, they don’t claim to be, at least most of them.

Then explain to him that the Catholic knows that the Bible is really divinely inspired scripture because the have the Church to guide us. The Church took all of those individual letters along with many other letters written in the same time period and decided which ones were inspired and belonged in the Bible. The Church didn’t create the Bible, but it compiled the Bible. Without the Church he wouldn’t have a Bible today.

 

[6glargento]

can someione explain to me how psalm 69:8 can ever be interpreted as a messianic prophesy? This is clearly just a tale of woe uttered by king david, look at the context.

*For the leader; according to “Lilies.” Of David.
Save me, God, for the waters have reached my neck.
I have sunk into the mire of the deep, where there is no foothold. I have gone down to the watery depths; the flood overwhelms me.
I am weary with crying out; my throat is parched. My eyes have failed, looking for my God.
More numerous than the hairs of my head are those who hate me without cause. Too many for my strength are my treacherous enemies. Must I now restore what I did not steal?
God, you know my folly; my faults are not hidden from you.
Let those who wait for you, LORD of hosts, not be shamed through me. Let those who seek you, God of Israel, not be disgraced through me
For your sake I bear insult, shame covers my face.
I have become an outcast to my kin, a stranger to my mother’s children. *

here david says “my folly” and “my faults” jesus was perfect he had no “folly” or “faults.” David is clearly just talking about his struggles in life, this is not a messianic prophesy at all.

 

[Zooey]

can someione explain to me how psalm 69:8 can ever be interpreted as a messianic prophesy? This is clearly just a tale of woe uttered by king david, look at the context.

*For the leader; according to “Lilies.” Of David. *
*Save me, God, for the waters have reached my neck. *
*I have sunk into the mire of the deep, where there is no foothold. I have gone down to the watery depths; the flood overwhelms me. *
*I am weary with crying out; my throat is parched. My eyes have failed, looking for my God. *
*More numerous than the hairs of my head are those who hate me without cause. Too many for my strength are my treacherous enemies. Must I now restore what I did not steal? *
God, you know my folly; my faults are not hidden from you.
*Let those who wait for you, LORD of hosts, not be shamed through me. Let those who seek you, God of Israel, not be disgraced through me *
*For your sake I bear insult, shame covers my face. *
*I have become an outcast to my kin, a stranger to my mother’s children. *

here david says “my folly” and “my faults” jesus was perfect he had no “folly” or “faults.” David is clearly just talking about his struggles in life, this is not a messianic prophesy at all.

Wellll…I think we need to be careful here. There is more than one layer to this Psalm, & we can see a type or foreshadowing of Christ in it.
The problem becomes when someone, as you point out here, divorces it entirely from its immediate context…
The whole of Psalm 69 describes David’s life, emotions, etc. At the same time, there are pictures that look forward to Christ. (Gambling for His garments, the gall & vinegar to drink…these are in the Passion accounts).
I think that the problem is that this young man is grasping at straws. In my own observation, I have never seen anyone try to force every word of a psalm, or a part of the prophets, etc—I have only ever seen this forcing to try to make something fit, when a person is trying to not understand another point of view from his own.
I think that he is feeling threatened by another way of interpreting Scripture than what he has learned, & is getting so desperate, that he is not thinking straight…

 

[6glargento]

yes but the point is that in psalm 69:9 it is talking about david’s life the passion of christ forshadowings start appearing later in the psalm