Trying to get past this argument against infant baptism

[guanophore]

 When Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born of water and spirit in order to enter the kingdom of God he also said that the Spirit is like the wind and that you cannot see it where it goes or where it is coming from but that you can only see the affects such as the wind blowing on the trees.

The fact that the HS is spontaneous and uncontained does not mean that He cannot also be present and contained in Ritual. The two are not mutually exclusive. Jesus taught that the HS would be present in the sacramental signs, so we can be sure the “wind” is blowing at such times and places.

 How should we respond to a protestant argument which says that infant baptism destroys this principle of the Spirit because we are declaring that the Spirit always comes from God through the Priest into every born infant whose parents are Christians.

Your affiliation is listed as Protestant. Why would you want to respond “to a protestant”? with a Catholic view?

Nothing human beings can do will ever “destroy” any principal of God. Yes, we are declaring that God is present in the Sacraments because He said He would be. He is not confined the the sacraments. He can baptize anyone He likes, however He likes. For example, the Church taught that John the Baptist was regenerated in his mother’s womb.

The priest is not the only valid minister of baptism. Anyone can baptize, but he is the normative minister.

Baptism is not offered by the CC to “every born infant whose parents are Christians”. If parents bring their infants, they must make promises to raise the child in the faith, or else they will not be offered baptism.

In other words, Jesus seems to say that the movement of the spirit is spontaneous where it wants to go, but in the sacrament of infant baptism there is not spontaneity but 100% spirit infusion.

What makes you think that 100% infusion is not spontaneous anyway? Do you think that John the Baptist was not “infused” when He leapt in his mother’s womb?

 

[steve_b]

But what is odd is that Jesus speaks of the freedom and self-will and spontanaeity of the spirit with specific reference to baptism

among other things, baptism also replaces circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). And circumcision is usually done for infants as a sign of being in the covenant.

For the “other things” Baptism is, please review this
catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism

 

[robwar]

robwar;10071967:

I am not sure why you are stuck on the “windiness” of the spirit. We understand scripture in light of the magisterium and authority of the Catholic Church which has been proven and tested over time. Following what the Catholic Church teaches prevents us from 'being blown about by every wind of doctrine". Every wind of doctrine is basically what is in Protestantism.
Like I said earlier, I would rather trust the Church on infant baptism which has been taught and practiced from the very beginning than what some group 1500 years later came up with in an inaccurate understanding of reading scripture. The choice is yours but if your are thinking about windiness, I would rather not be blown about by “every wind of doctrine” which will just get you into trouble, heresy and error. I can trust the magisterium of the Catholic Church which has been lead and protected by the Holy Spirit.

you have no proof of what you are saying. Yes I already know Anglican, Methodist and Lutherans believe and practice infant baptism. Adult only was something that came up with the anabaptist movement in the 1500’s. That is not what you started out your thread with.

 

[po18guy]

When Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born of water and spirit in order to enter the kingdom of God he also said that the Spirit is like the wind and that you cannot see it where it goes or where it is coming from but that you can only see the affects such as the wind blowing on the trees.

How should we respond to a protestant argument which says that infant baptism destroys this principle of the Spirit because we are declaring that the Spirit always comes from God through the Priest into every born infant whose parents are Christians.

In other words, Jesus seems to say that the movement of the spirit is spontaneous where it wants to go, but in the sacrament of infant baptism there is not spontaneity but 100% spirit infusion.

Denominations that practice infant baptism include the Anglican churches, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, some Churches of the Nazarene, the Reformed Church in America, the United Church of Canada, the United Church of Christ, and the Continental Reformed.

The problem is not infant baptism, it is protestant disunity.

 

[guanophore]

And truly if all catholics from all time were alive today there would he much disagreement.  Even the popes themselves would find something to quarrel about. The literature tells this. They would all have to find one pope to submit to.

The One Faith handed down to the Church once for all time is a seamless garment. It is not a democracy, but a theocracy. The One Faith is not determined by how much “disagreement” against it exists among individuals.

The One Faith is not deterimned by quarrels, either, although some of those quarrels that amounted to heresy have caused the Church to better define the faith by making infalliblt prounouncements and creating creeds.

Fortunately, those who are in the Church founded by Christ do not need to go looking “to find one pope”, since Jesus has already provided for that need.

 

[Bookcat]

But what is odd is that Jesus speaks of the freedom and self-will and spontanaeity of the spirit with specific reference to baptism

Does one “see” the Holy Spirit when he comes at Christian Baptism?

no…

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I’m just trying to understand jesus’ teaching on the self will of the spirit and infant baptism. Its a bit difficult since we are telling the spirit to come down

 

[guanophore]

I’m just trying to understand jesus’ teaching on the self will of the spirit and infant baptism. Its a bit difficult since we are telling the spirit to come down

Jesus has taught us that the Father delights to give the HS to those who ask. In baptism, as in all the Sacraments, we ask. He is faithful to His promise. Jesus taught His Apostles to baptize, and they taught their successors the Bishops, and we baptize this same way to the present day.

No on “tells the Spirit” to do anything!

 

[Bookcat]

I’m just trying to understand jesus’ teaching on the self will of the spirit and infant baptism. Its a bit difficult since we are telling the spirit to come down

coming from a misunderstanding of what he is getting at there…

The Holy Spirit (with the Father and the Son) wills (from outside time) --that what takes in each valid Baptism takes place.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I don’t know…there is a recurring theme in the johannine literature that shows parallel patterns in the terms of being born again not through the will of man but by the will of God. The children of Satan and God. Those who love light and those who love darkness. Those who are sheep and those who are not.

When someone is born again, since it is not of the will of man, how can a priest and parents will a baby to be born again?

I’m not denying it. I’m trying to be able to explain this to somebody in particular

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

I’m just trying to understand jesus’ teaching on the self will of the spirit and infant baptism. Its a bit difficult since we are telling the spirit to come down

But that is how baptism as described in the Bible, as a petition to God.

“Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience…” (1 Pet 3:21).

 

[KP3243]

Catholics baptize babies because that is how we enter into God’s family we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit in baptism but like everything else the Spirit grow as you grow and you have to nurture your soul. No Jews would have converted to Christianity in the first century if you told them their babies are excluded from being in God’s family. Catholics got to mass on New Year’s Day because it is 8 days after Christ’s birth because that was when he was circumcised and circumcision was how the Jews entered into God’s family. The sacrament of confirmation is when you accept your role in the Kingdom of God. God has made you one of His own, He is even a King that has invited you to eat at his table and He has fed you and He has taught you and given you all the weapons you need to defend the Kingdom on Earth. Just as the Our father says, “On earth as it is in heaven”. The idea that you have to be of age and reason to be baptized to enter into God’s family is a fairly new idea, there is no long standing tradition of this in history and frankly it’s scary that you would not make your children part of God’s family as soon as you could.

 

[KP3243]

Also Catholics renew their baptismal promises every Easter through Pentacost. The priests will also go around the church with Holy water and “spray” the Eucharistic assembly with water even though our parents and God parents initnally made our baptismal promise on our behalf we renew it every year and our parents and God parents have also agree to raise us in the faith.

 

[Bookcat]

I don’t know…there is a recurring theme in the johannine literature that shows parallel patterns in the terms of being born again not through the will of man but by the will of God. The children of Satan and God. Those who love light and those who love darkness. Those who are sheep and those who are not.

When someone is born again, since it is not of the will of man, how can a priest and parents will a baby to be born again?

I’m not denying it. I’m trying to be able to explain this to somebody in particular

a…it IS by the will of God.

GOD acts in Baptism.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I didn’t say by the power of god, I said will. How can we will someones reception of the spirit for them?

 

[Bookcat]

I didn’t say by the power of god, I said will. How can we will someones reception of the spirit for them?

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit will it!

 

[Actaeon]

I’m just trying to understand jesus’ teaching on the self will of the spirit and infant baptism. Its a bit difficult since we are telling the spirit to come down

That is exactly backwards, Erick. We are not telling the Spirit to come down. God has rather instructed US to baptise.

 

[Bookcat]

That is exactly backwards, Erick. We are not telling the Spirit to come down. God has rather instructed US to baptise.

And it is GOD who wills each Baptism! The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[utunumsint]

When Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born of water and spirit in order to enter the kingdom of God he also said that the Spirit is like the wind and that you cannot see it where it goes or where it is coming from but that you can only see the affects such as the wind blowing on the trees.

How should we respond to a protestant argument which says that infant baptism destroys this principle of the Spirit because we are declaring that the Spirit always comes from God through the Priest into every born infant whose parents are Christians.

In other words, Jesus seems to say that the movement of the spirit is spontaneous where it wants to go, but in the sacrament of infant baptism there is not spontaneity but 100% spirit infusion.

The baptism of infants removed original sin, through no merit of the child.
The baptism of older children and adults removes both original sin and personal sin, through no merit of their own.

Baptism in both cases is a gift, completely unmeritted. It is pure grace. Freely given by God to us.

The conviction and faith of the adult brought him to Baptism. The faith of a child’s parents bring that child to baptism.

What both a child and an adult does with the grace that God has given to us, whether as adults or as children, is where our personal responsibility begins.

God bless,
Ut

 

[guanophore]

I don’t know…there is a recurring theme in the johannine literature that shows parallel patterns in the terms of being born again not through the will of man but by the will of God. The children of Satan and God. Those who love light and those who love darkness. Those who are sheep and those who are not.

When someone is born again, since it is not of the will of man, how can a priest and parents will a baby to be born again?

I’m not denying it. I’m trying to be able to explain this to somebody in particular

The fact that we also wish to be born again, as Jesus commands, does not mean the birth happens because of our will. It is He who commands that we be born again of water and Spirit. Our wills come into agreement with HIs command when we submit to baptism.

Baptism is the outward sign of the inward grace. In it, the soul of the person is circumcised without hands, we are sealed with the promised HS, adopted into the household of God, and become partakers of the divine nature. None of these effects are things from man, but from God.

1 Peter 3:20-22
in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

The Apostle is drawing a parallel between baptism and how Noah and his family were saved through water. God willed the flood, and God saved Noah through the water, but Noah had to build and board the Ark. That did not mean his obedience caused his salvation, only that he cooperated wtih God’s commandment, and thus was saved.

In the same way, we are saved through water in baptism, when our sins are washed away. They are not washed away by our will or effort, but by grace. We choose to participate in that grace.