Trying to make an agurement for Pro-Life in my politics class for the church without bringing up the church... can anyone help me please?

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Really?

Where exactly did Christ say that charity was to be done through the State? Everything I read ( such as Matthew 25) says that it’s a personal action.

And it was to Peter, not Cesear, that He told “Feed my sheep” and “tend my lambs”.

Charity, in the Christian view, cannot be compelled. It has to be freely given, not threated out of a person by tax law and imprisonment.
So how can you feed His sheep and Tend his lambs if you cannot afford to feed the sheep nor tend the lambs alone? Therefore we collectively support the sheep and lamb through taxes and make sure that no sheep or lamb are starving, homeless, cold, injured, hurt, dying and so on. If you do not wish to do support your fellow human being by , following your god’s word, then you cannot compel your religion upon a woman who wants an abortion.
 
Hey guys,

I’m in a politics class and we have an online class discussion board and I want to make a reasonable argument for Pro-Life without sounding that it’s just because of my religious reasons I believe this. Is there a way to defend Pro-Life issues without bringing up the church? If there is can I have some examples? One thing to understand is that most of my classmates believe the U.S. ruling on what is a fetus and what is a baby and at contraception to them it’s not. I thought about bringing up the bad side effects of abortions but I’m afraid they will say that is becoming easier as technology grows so I need a stronger argument then that, this class is an honors class so a lot of them are going to think quite hard on this.

Thanks guys, appreciate your help.
Taylor
Desensitizing society to the value and dignity of human life is not a religious issue. I consider it a civil rights issue. Today, we consider a fetus to NOT be human; we consider anyone in a “persistent vegitative state” to be useless and deserving of death (just taking up a hosptial bed); we are also close to considering the elderly to be disposable; we have assisted suicide by doctors who seem to have forgotten their Hypocratic Oath. What’s next? WHO’S next?? So the only people deserving of life are healthy people between the ages of 1 year and 60 years, assuming the people under 18 are “wanted” by their parents? We have begun our slide down that slippery slope. Once you give anyone (judges, politicians) the power to determine who is worthy of life, then it is quite easy to begin throwing more and more categories into the mix. (1) The unborn (2) the elderly (3) people in comas (4) those who are sick and want to commit suicide with a doctor’s assistance… Anyone with half a brain can easily see where socieity is heading. Today it may be the unborn - tomorrow it’ll be all the rest of us.
 
Lefty,
Who taught you that nonsense about Jesus being a socialist?

Jesus was a member of the Jewish religion aka Judaism an organized religion as well as a culture of people, with their own political system. They were forced to pay taxes to Rome who used that money against them… typical of organized political systems. And when someone asked Jesus if they should be paying taxes to Rome, remember Jesus asked for a coin (note he did not have one himself). And he asked (just picture him looking at this coin)…“Whose image is on this coin?”. The answer Caesar! Then the famous saying …"Render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God! in other words, Lefty, Jesus was saying that the money, the tax is nothing! It is an image! A false god! God is the God of Life…eternal life. Jesus didn t come to make this world a happy place! he came to show us the way OUT of the deceit and lies and nothingness of political systems… Jesus’ Kingdom is not of this world. Unborn babies belong to God and only God has a right to whether they live or die. render these children unto God, not the government! And our tax money is going not only to feed babies, but to kill the unborn ones!!

If you see a mother who needs assistance with her children, help her! if she is a member of a Catholic parish,(ie: organized religion) I guarantee you she would not be wanting, she would get the help she needs to give her children a decent life, but more important , eternal life!

Jesus was not a socialist Lefty. Please don’t say that, it’s crazy-talk.

Lefty, are you ok? Why are you so angry and aggressive towards people of religion and in particular the Catholic religion?
 
So how can you feed His sheep and Tend his lambs if you cannot afford to feed the sheep nor tend the lambs alone? .
Mother Theresa of Calcutta was asked that question by one of her sisters. The nun was worried that there would not be enough funds to establish a particular mission.

Mother Theresa’s response “Don’t worry about money, God has plenty of that”

The Christian response is not compel charity, but to encourage it and pool it.

Look again at Matthew 25. What is asked, the offering of a cup of water, the gift of one’s cloak, the time spent visiting the sick or imprisoned. These are all personal activities. We don’t get into heaven by claiming that we voted for the State to take someone elses money to pay cloaks. We are to give them our own, and do so willingly.

A great example was that He was more gratified by the two pennies contributed by the widow instead of the great sums donated by the rich man. (Mark 12) If what you say is true, God should have been happier with the “bigger money” since more of the poor could have been fed with it. But He was happier with the two cents a old woman gave.

That is the attitude that all charity should be centered around.

And as far as stopping a woman from having an abortion, Christ Himself stopped a woman from being stoned to death, why should we not stop a child from being killed. It is simply following the example of Christ.
 
So how can you feed His sheep and Tend his lambs if you cannot afford to feed the sheep nor tend the lambs alone? Therefore we collectively support the sheep and lamb through taxes and make sure that no sheep or lamb are starving, homeless, cold, injured, hurt, dying and so on. If you do not wish to do support your fellow human being by , following your god’s word, then you cannot compel your religion upon a woman who wants an abortion.
I’m coming in a little late, but when Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep and tend his lambs, I think he meant to feed them spiritually.
 
Mother Theresa of Calcutta was asked that question by one of her sisters. The nun was worried that there would not be enough funds to establish a particular mission.

Mother Theresa’s response “Don’t worry about money, God has plenty of that”

The Christian response is not compel charity, but to encourage it and pool it.

Look again at Matthew 25. What is asked, the offering of a cup of water, the gift of one’s cloak, the time spent visiting the sick or imprisoned. These are all personal activities. We don’t get into heaven by claiming that we voted for the State to take someone elses money to pay cloaks. We are to give them our own, and do so willingly.

A great example was that He was more gratified by the two pennies contributed by the widow instead of the great sums donated by the rich man. (Mark 12) If what you say is true, God should have been happier with the “bigger money” since more of the poor could have been fed with it. But He was happier with the two cents a old woman gave.

That is the attitude that all charity should be centered around.

And as far as stopping a woman from having an abortion, Christ Himself stopped a woman from being stoned to death, why should we not stop a child from being killed. It is simply following the example of Christ.
So why not do the same TODAY??? No. Today’s Christians as you mentioned charity. Charity? Is there enough charity for a child alive? Is there enough charity so NO ONE IS HOMELESS AFTER ALL THE DERIVATIVES THAT THE CORRUPT PROFIT OFF FROM??? So before you scream about charity and quote your bible, THEN TELL YOUR POPE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO GOT RIPPED OFF BECAUSE OF GRAMM LEACH BLILEY TO TO PAY DEBTS THAT WAS INCURRED BECAUSE WHAT THE BANKERS (the money changers) DID…LEGALLY! After they deregulated the Glass Steagall Act.
 
Lefty,
Who taught you that nonsense about Jesus being a socialist?

Jesus was a member of the Jewish religion aka Judaism an organized religion as well as a culture of people, with their own political system. They were forced to pay taxes to Rome who used that money against them… typical of organized political systems. And when someone asked Jesus if they should be paying taxes to Rome, remember Jesus asked for a coin (note he did not have one himself). And he asked (just picture him looking at this coin)…“Whose image is on this coin?”. The answer Caesar! Then the famous saying …"Render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God! in other words, Lefty, Jesus was saying that the money, the tax is nothing! It is an image! A false god! God is the God of Life…eternal life. Jesus didn t come to make this world a happy place! he came to show us the way OUT of the deceit and lies and nothingness of political systems… Jesus’ Kingdom is not of this world. Unborn babies belong to God and only God has a right to whether they live or die. render these children unto God, not the government! And our tax money is going not only to feed babies, but to kill the unborn ones!!

If you see a mother who needs assistance with her children, help her! if she is a member of a Catholic parish,(ie: organized religion) I guarantee you she would not be wanting, she would get the help she needs to give her children a decent life, but more important , eternal life!

Jesus was not a socialist Lefty. Please don’t say that, it’s crazy-talk.

Lefty, are you ok? Why are you so angry and aggressive towards people of religion and in particular the Catholic religion?
Because I do not want your religion to tell me what is good for me.
 
So why not do the same TODAY??? No. Today’s Christians as you mentioned charity. Charity? Is there enough charity for a child alive? Is there enough charity so NO ONE IS HOMELESS AFTER ALL THE DERIVATIVES THAT THE CORRUPT PROFIT OFF FROM??? So before you scream about charity and quote your bible, THEN TELL YOUR POPE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO GOT RIPPED OFF BECAUSE OF GRAMM LEACH BLILEY TO TO PAY DEBTS THAT WAS INCURRED BECAUSE WHAT THE BANKERS (the money changers) DID…LEGALLY! After they deregulated the Glass Steagall Act.
You clearly have not read the pope’s encyclical on the financial crisis. Please do so.
 
Because I do not want your religion to tell me what is good for me.
Is the following a religious statement?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
 
Is the following a religious statement?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
unalienable rights. The rights to NOT believe in a god or a being or to follow his or her rules or regulation, and the right to sin because your god gave us the right to choose. Or does he/she? If he doesn’t give us a choice, then would you as his/her slave give us the choice?
 
unalienable rights. The rights to NOT believe in a god or a being or to follow his or her rules or regulation, and the right to sin because your god gave us the right to choose. Or does he/she? If he doesn’t give us a choice, then would you as his/her slave give us the choice?
Where do the rights come from?
 
Because I do not want your religion to tell me what is good for me.
Lefty, you have free will. If you do not want my religion, you do not have to have it. I am just wondering why you are trying to convince those who do want to obey the Catholic teachings,that they are bad, wrong, or mislead? Why all this energy towards attack? Please, go within yourself to pray. You don’t have to be Catholic to pray, right? Ask God to give you peace. It really kills me to see you so upset. I wish you peace. The peace that the world cannot give.

What do you think about the rest of what I presented to you? Do you have any comments on that? I am just wondering if it made any sense, at any level.:o

Thank you,
Joan
 
Lefty, you have free will. If you do not want my religion, you do not have to have it. I am just wondering why you are trying to convince those who do want to obey the Catholic teachings,that they are bad, wrong, or mislead? Why all this energy towards attack? Please, go within yourself to pray. You don’t have to be Catholic to pray, right? Ask God to give you peace. It really kills me to see you so upset. I wish you peace. The peace that the world cannot give.

What do you think about the rest of what I presented to you? Do you have any comments on that? I am just wondering if it made any sense, at any level.:o

Thank you,
Joan
Joan, I’ll tell you why and i am truly glad you asked. God, or their God tells them to go sin no more. Does their God tell them stop sinning or I will kill you?

No.

Does their God say Stop sinning or I will send you to prison? No.

Even in their sin, God still loves the sinner. But God never said, “you can never get married if you are same sex or have an abortion.” Cat Herder says that the woman who was about to be stoned, Jesus wrote: He who is without sin cast the first stone…so they all left. And he told the sex worker to go sin no more. Did he force her? No. Did Jesus fund proposition 8? No as a matter of fact, in their bible, Matthew 8 5-13,

The Greek word that the Roman centurion uses in this passage to describe the sick man – pais – is the same word used in ancient Greek to refer to a same-gender partner.

Is the Greek version incorrect? So as in abortion, I do not like abortion I think it’s disgusting, but when the Catholic Church teaches abstinence or the Rhythm Method (which neither works) (ask pro-abstinence mom Sarah Palin), instead of safe-sex, and when the chruch push legislation to not teach sexual education or pass legislation to overturn Roe vs. Wade Because of their belief, then not being a Catholic, I am to abide by the fairy tales of the mentally ill against my choice?
Lefty, you have free will. If you do not want my religion, you do not have to have it. I am just wondering why you are trying to convince those who do want to obey the Catholic teachings,that they are bad, wrong, or mislead? Why all this energy towards attack?
You and every religious folks do what YOU want to do. Don’t tell me what to do. And if I am rebelling against God and I am practicing witchcraft according to your Bible. then leave me be. i don’t care what you practice and encourage you to do so. Just don’t tell me what to do nor pass legislation (like prop 8) telling me what I can or cannot do.

Why the anger? Because I don’t like to be told what to do legally by the church. Do you want me to tell you what to do with your religion?

Nope.
 
Hey guys,

I’m in a politics class and we have an online class discussion board and I want to make a reasonable argument for Pro-Life without sounding that it’s just because of my religious reasons I believe this. Is there a way to defend Pro-Life issues without bringing up the church? If there is can I have some examples? One thing to understand is that most of my classmates believe the U.S. ruling on what is a fetus and what is a baby and at contraception to them it’s not. I thought about bringing up the bad side effects of abortions but I’m afraid they will say that is becoming easier as technology grows so I need a stronger argument then that, this class is an honors class so a lot of them are going to think quite hard on this.

Thanks guys, appreciate your help.
Taylor
Trying to support a Pro-Life stand without mentioning the Catholic Church is a valid exercise as not everybody believes the Catholic Church to have any authority on this issue.
A little while ago I heard an argument that was directed as a such and I will try to repeat it as accurately as possible, though I forgot where I got it from:

The problem is defining whether or not we are talking about a baby or not and whether this life that is in the womb has the same value as a baby does.
For that it is necessary to define the difference between a newborn and a baby in the womb.

First difference: Development
A growing baby in the womb is not as far developed as a baby that has been born and it is usually not able to live on its own.
The problem that this assessment poses however is far greater than the mere difference between an embryo and a baby. If the worth of a person is defined by his or her development this would mean that I as a person am of greater worth than a toddler as I am full grown while a toddler is not. I am further developed in my mental capability, in my knowledge and in my strength. All of that however does not give me a higher worth than a toddler.
As the argument goes further let me explain this too: An embryo is not capable of living on its own. This however is a mere straw man argument. A newborn is incapable to live on its own and a toddler is just as well. During our development we do need the care of others lest we die. Some teenagers are not capable to live on their own. Does that validate killing a newborn? No it doesn’t. Does that make a toddler’s life less precious? No it doesn’t. The fact that an embryo needs the environment of his or her mother to sustain themselves does not make them less worthy of living.

Second difference: Location
A baby born 3 months early is outside the womb and killing the child would be illegal. A baby at the same gestational age who is still inside the womb however can be aborted. This would mean that the location of the child is important in telling whether this life is worthy of protection under the law. The question here is however the following: Does a different location make a person worth less and another make the person worth more?
If I go through my door and move from the living room onto the front porch, has my value changed? I shouldn’t think so.
Why then is the value of a child changed by the mere fact that he or she has been born and in effect only changed locations from inside the womb to outside of the womb. That doesn’t make any sense at all. This is however how we assess the situation commonly.

Third difference: The freedom of the mother
When a child is born a mother’s life will be changed dramatically and everybody knows that. It is a normal thing to assume that her life will not be the same after the birth. Does that make the child less valuable and does that validate killing the child? I don’t think so. In the case of somebody’s life being radically changed the question is whether we end a life to keep the comfort of another life and that is morally incomprehensible. If we were to follow this directive and follow it consequently hardly anyone of us would have made it through our teenage years. When a child is born the mother takes care of him or her. Then her life is dramatically changed for the first time in her child’s life by the fact that she will have to put up with a toddler. Later her child will undergo even more dramatic changes with immense mood swings, lusts and rebellion against the parents. If the child’s impact upon the life of the mother because of his or her birth is a valid reason for killing the child, then why aren’t the toddler years considered as such or puberty? If this was a valid argument, then why is it illegal to kill the child right after birth?
What would and should we choose? Keeping the status quo for a woman by killing an innocent child or allowing this innocent life to grow and mature while helping the mother cope with the situation in any possible manner?

There is no valid reason to assume that there is a difference between an unborn and a born child. Development and location do not change the worth of this young life and it is incomprehensible to assume that the comfort of a woman supersedes the right to life of an innocent baby.
 
Joan, I’ll tell you why and i am truly glad you asked. God, or their God tells them to go sin no more. Does their God tell them stop sinning or I will kill you?

No.
Sin kills. God does not, not after Calvary.
Does their God say Stop sinning or I will send you to prison? No.
Yes, He did say that with reference to Purgatory.
Even in their sin, God still loves the sinner. But God never said, “you can never get married if you are same sex or have an abortion.”
He did and you know it.
… So as in abortion, I do not like abortion I think it’s disgusting, but when the Catholic Church teaches abstinence or the Rhythm Method (which neither works) (ask pro-abstinence mom Sarah Palin), instead of safe-sex,
What is so safe about carcinogenic drugs and “pregnancy teminations”?
and when the chruch push legislation to not teach sexual education or pass legislation to overturn Roe vs. Wade Because of their belief, then not being a Catholic, I am to abide by the fairy tales of the mentally ill against my choice?
The King of England thought Jefferson and the other signers of the Declaration to be madmen. Now you call us mad for standing firm on the principles of that document. I am honored to be ridiculed along with them.
 
I too am against abortion. i am pro choice, not pro abortion. It’s morons like the religious right and the rightwinged politicians who say that being pro-choice is pro abortion. And if you are a socialist, then you would have no problem that taxes go up to pay for after a child is born or the man or woman who will never become homeless
 
Trying to support a Pro-Life stand without mentioning the Catholic Church is a valid exercise as not everybody believes the Catholic Church to have any authority on this issue.
A little while ago I heard an argument that was directed as a such and I will try to repeat it as accurately as possible, though I forgot where I got it from:

The problem is defining whether or not we are talking about a baby or not and whether this life that is in the womb has the same value as a baby does.
For that it is necessary to define the difference between a newborn and a baby in the womb.

First difference: Development
A growing baby in the womb is not as far developed as a baby that has been born and it is usually not able to live on its own.
The problem that this assessment poses however is far greater than the mere difference between an embryo and a baby. If the worth of a person is defined by his or her development this would mean that I as a person am of greater worth than a toddler as I am full grown while a toddler is not. I am further developed in my mental capability, in my knowledge and in my strength. All of that however does not give me a higher worth than a toddler.
As the argument goes further let me explain this too: An embryo is not capable of living on its own. This however is a mere straw man argument. A newborn is incapable to live on its own and a toddler is just as well. During our development we do need the care of others lest we die. Some teenagers are not capable to live on their own. Does that validate killing a newborn? No it doesn’t. Does that make a toddler’s life less precious? No it doesn’t. The fact that an embryo needs the environment of his or her mother to sustain themselves does not make them less worthy of living.

Second difference: Location
A baby born 3 months early is outside the womb and killing the child would be illegal. A baby at the same gestational age who is still inside the womb however can be aborted. This would mean that the location of the child is important in telling whether this life is worthy of protection under the law. The question here is however the following: Does a different location make a person worth less and another make the person worth more?
If I go through my door and move from the living room onto the front porch, has my value changed? I shouldn’t think so.
Why then is the value of a child changed by the mere fact that he or she has been born and in effect only changed locations from inside the womb to outside of the womb. That doesn’t make any sense at all. This is however how we assess the situation commonly.

Third difference: The freedom of the mother
When a child is born a mother’s life will be changed dramatically and everybody knows that. It is a normal thing to assume that her life will not be the same after the birth. Does that make the child less valuable and does that validate killing the child? I don’t think so. In the case of somebody’s life being radically changed the question is whether we end a life to keep the comfort of another life and that is morally incomprehensible. If we were to follow this directive and follow it consequently hardly anyone of us would have made it through our teenage years. When a child is born the mother takes care of him or her. Then her life is dramatically changed for the first time in her child’s life by the fact that she will have to put up with a toddler. Later her child will undergo even more dramatic changes with immense mood swings, lusts and rebellion against the parents. If the child’s impact upon the life of the mother because of his or her birth is a valid reason for killing the child, then why aren’t the toddler years considered as such or puberty? If this was a valid argument, then why is it illegal to kill the child right after birth?
What would and should we choose? Keeping the status quo for a woman by killing an innocent child or allowing this innocent life to grow and mature while helping the mother cope with the situation in any possible manner?

There is no valid reason to assume that there is a difference between an unborn and a born child. Development and location do not change the worth of this young life and it is incomprehensible to assume that the comfort of a woman supersedes the right to life of an innocent baby.
But does the pro-life responsibility end after the baby is born? Where then is the outrage now that the Christian community who supports the Right-winged agenda gets a story like this?

Bush admitted that he pushed waterboarding

So as a conservative Christians, where were the anger when non-christians were protesting the torture? the war? and ones who do protest the war, All Saints (firstamendmentcenter.org/commentary.aspx?id=16100)??) Where were they? Where were you folks? I was protesting and teargas hurts
 
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