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Asian_Lefty
Guest
Who cares? I do not believe in god and because I do not, why would I care? Why do you want non-christians to follow your god? You did it in Asia, Africa, south America and every continent
Trying to make an agurement for Pro-Life in my politics class for the church without bringing up the church... can anyone help me please?
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Asian_Lefty
Guest
If you believe in that fairy tales
Purgatory? I do that when I drink too much. I purge mysself of the booze
UYou heard god? like bush did when Jeebus said to attack Iraq and Afghanistan?
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Cat_Herder
Guest
They don’t work.
He wrote this:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
The rights of men to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness come from GOD. The right of liberty includes the right to establish and ordain a Constitution, which is exactly what the We the People of the United States did. But the Constitution was created to PROTECT the rights to life, liberty and happiness which ALREADY EXISTED, as recognized by the Declaration.
The Constitution is not the source of the rights. It is a safeguard to protect them.
If you really do think that human rights come from a piece of paper that people vote on, then you are a communist. Why? Because all of the peoples’ rights are then at the whim of the state and everything, including these inalienable rights, is subordinate to the needs of the community. This system has been tried many, many times and it has always failed. China became successful when they brought back religion and a market economy.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
For purposes of establishing the right to life recognized in the Declaration, I don’t think it matters that Jefferson was a Deist. Deists do believe that there is a God, but deny that He is involved with worldly affairs. Jefferson did identify God, not the king or the people, as the source of the right to life.
As for the Constitution…
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7790
As for the Constitution…
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7790
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Cat_Herder
Guest
You will notice that the Declaration does not use the words anno Domini. But the Constitution does. The decision to use them in the supreme law of the land was deliberate.
If God had been intended to be completely left out of the public square then why is He in the Constitution–and specifically identified as Jesus of Nazareth?
If God had been intended to be completely left out of the public square then why is He in the Constitution–and specifically identified as Jesus of Nazareth?
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Cat_Herder
Guest
The Constitution said “Year of Our Lord” in English.
Why not in the Declaration then?
They use CE.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Most of the time they, like Jews and Deists, use neither AD nor CE and just specify the AD year with no initials, which is how Jefferson did it in the Declaration. If there is a need to distinguish AD and BC then they use B/CE.
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Janet1983
Guest
Just because Bush might have advocated water boarding doesn’t make everything he said wrong. I do not advocate torture. As a matter of fact I despise it just as much as the next person.
I am however pro-life and I think that we as a community should support those mothers, be it through charity or through providing good adoption services. We shouldn’t have to depend on the government to sort out our problems for us and we should take care of one another. The church I attend does give help to women who choose not to have an abortion, but carry the baby to term. So does the Catholic parish here by the way.
I did protest the war by the way, if you must know. I was against invading Iraq and I went out into the streets for that.
Have you ever heard of honest concern? These men and women went into places like Asia, Africa and South America because of an honest concern. Some might have gone there for other reasons, but there were Christians who went there because they couldn’t bear the thought that God was not being honored by the indigenous people there and they didn’t want them to die without knowledge of the Lord.
Have you ever heard the story of Adoniram Judson? He went to Burma to proclaim the Gospel.
When he got there he immediately started learning the Burmese language after having learned Latin, Greek, and Hebrew already. He started translating the Bible into the Burmese language.
During the war between the UK and Burma he was mistaken for a spy and was put in a death prison for 17 months. The account of how he was tortured have been described by his wife. He was half-starved, iron-fettered, and sometimes trussed and suspended by his mangled feet with only head and shoulders touching the ground. He suffered like this for 20 months and he was one of the few who survived.
Do you really think he would have gone through all of that if it weren’t for a genuine concern for the people?
Do you think Watchman Nee spent the last 20 years of his life in prison just for fun? He was a Chinese who became a Christian and set out to proclaim the Gospel. He was imprisoned for his faith in 1952 and remained there until his death in 1972.
Don’t you think Samuel Lamb would have an easier life if he would just give up his faith?
Do you think the twenty-six Martyrs of Japan went to Japan for fun? They were having an earnest concern and the were crucified on February 5, 1597 at Nagasaki.
The Christians who were martyred in Turkey in 2007 weren’t imperialists either. They too had honest motives and they paid with their lives for it after having been tortured by their murderers…
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Janet1983
Guest
What exactly is it that you are calling fairy tales? I assume that it’s different than the first idea that came to my mind (which would be you calling the resurrection such). I won’t put anything in your mouth that I wouldn’t want put in mine so I ask you:
What are you referring to?
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LItraptFE
Guest
Here is a brief article that I wrote for my college newspaper. I think it is good to highlight the fact that the definition of life has changed since Roe v. Wade such that life is now considered to begin at conception.
Your Defining Moment
What was the most significant event in your life? If I wanted to impress my professors I might say the most defining moment in my life was getting into college, or maybe graduating from college in a few months. If I were more romantic I might choose prom, a formal, my first kiss, or meeting that special someone. Perhaps my first memory as a young child was the most significant moment of my life. The day I was born and began my experience in this world makes for a good choice as well. Upon further examination, I realized, although it might be cliché and straightforward, that my DNA defines me. My experiences are merely the ways that my person, made up of DNA, interacts with the environment around me. So, when did I become me? When did I become a unique living human being? My experiences constantly influence who I am but there is no denying that I became a unique person at conception.
At conception my unique DNA was created and that excited young cell began to split. I was living, unique, human and, according to my faith, I had a soul. When I was a mere zygote, I met nearly all definitions for life including metabolism, reproduction (cell splitting), and response to stimuli (chemicals in my mother). I met all the conditions for being human, since my DNA was and is in fact not that of a manatee, sea lion or bear, to the surprise of many of my friends. My DNA was also unique from every other living person. According to my faith I also have a soul at conception, for the Bible states, “I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb”( Jeremiah 1:5).
Many people still believe that my mother should have had the “choice” to end my unique, human life at some point before birth. If you are a Christian, there is no difference between killing an embryo and killing a human since a human soul is present at conception. For those of you who reject the existence of a soul, you cannot reject the evidence of life at conception; thus, supporting abortion irrefutably supports the killing of unique human life. No scientific journal states that the formation of the heart, the eyes, the brain, the organs, or even consciousness defines life. Life is defined as I have described above, and you will be hard pressed to find evidence proving otherwise.
Since Roe v. Wad,e significant advances in science made it even more evident that life begins at conception. One example is, “The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.” [Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3] Many notable people have become pro-life since then including “Roe” herself and Abby Johnson, the director of Bryan Planned Parenthood after seeing an abortion perform with an ultrasound. It is this evidence of life that inspires me to respect life in all stages and under all circumstances. I value my life too much to support taking away these opportunities from someone just because they have not been born yet.
Your Defining Moment
What was the most significant event in your life? If I wanted to impress my professors I might say the most defining moment in my life was getting into college, or maybe graduating from college in a few months. If I were more romantic I might choose prom, a formal, my first kiss, or meeting that special someone. Perhaps my first memory as a young child was the most significant moment of my life. The day I was born and began my experience in this world makes for a good choice as well. Upon further examination, I realized, although it might be cliché and straightforward, that my DNA defines me. My experiences are merely the ways that my person, made up of DNA, interacts with the environment around me. So, when did I become me? When did I become a unique living human being? My experiences constantly influence who I am but there is no denying that I became a unique person at conception.
At conception my unique DNA was created and that excited young cell began to split. I was living, unique, human and, according to my faith, I had a soul. When I was a mere zygote, I met nearly all definitions for life including metabolism, reproduction (cell splitting), and response to stimuli (chemicals in my mother). I met all the conditions for being human, since my DNA was and is in fact not that of a manatee, sea lion or bear, to the surprise of many of my friends. My DNA was also unique from every other living person. According to my faith I also have a soul at conception, for the Bible states, “I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb”( Jeremiah 1:5).
Many people still believe that my mother should have had the “choice” to end my unique, human life at some point before birth. If you are a Christian, there is no difference between killing an embryo and killing a human since a human soul is present at conception. For those of you who reject the existence of a soul, you cannot reject the evidence of life at conception; thus, supporting abortion irrefutably supports the killing of unique human life. No scientific journal states that the formation of the heart, the eyes, the brain, the organs, or even consciousness defines life. Life is defined as I have described above, and you will be hard pressed to find evidence proving otherwise.
Since Roe v. Wad,e significant advances in science made it even more evident that life begins at conception. One example is, “The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.” [Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3] Many notable people have become pro-life since then including “Roe” herself and Abby Johnson, the director of Bryan Planned Parenthood after seeing an abortion perform with an ultrasound. It is this evidence of life that inspires me to respect life in all stages and under all circumstances. I value my life too much to support taking away these opportunities from someone just because they have not been born yet.
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Asian_Lefty
Guest
Where does religious intervention from the pulpit begin and end? Right there. If the church wishes to excommunicate someone from the church for making that choice let them. According to federal law, a church or a business/University has the right to discriminate someone from their place of business or institution because they do not follow their dogma.
Fine.
The SCOTUS says that the church or the institution has the right to do so. I have no beef because SCOTUS says so. Yet when does selective enforcement of laws and I don’t mean from the bible but from man, which many christians do not believe or do not recognize, because god’s law is greater than man’s law, curtail the rights of those who do not recognize the church’s belief and have the overbearing weight of a church , like in the Philippines or Saudi Arabia, cease? The issue is not the members protesting abortion and calling their senator or members of congress, but the church lobbying (K-Street, Knights of Columbus) pay the members of Congress to press their belief on others, but overturn laws that would have removed the statute of limitations on rapist and molesting priests (it happened in California) and send them to prison for life regardless of when the alleged crime occurred, if they were found guilty.
Defending one issue and not another again is hypocritical and that’s why Pope John Paul 1, was probably killed because he was more liberal than the PJP2 or Ratzinger. And to admit that there are space aliens from outer space, when in the past, the church would murder people because people believed that the earth revolved around the sun? What logic is this? Is the past the past? Then why don’t the people learn? Molestation and rape of the past was never resolved and religious leaders like Cardinal Roger Mahoney hid priests from prosecution? Why isn’t he in prison for conspiracy? Probably because the same elected officials are catholic too and they do not want to be excommunicated. The hypocrisy MUST end and catholics MUST make sure that the evil their leaders do must be brought to justice, before they use the same justice system to prosecute doctors, women and others who in their eyes commit crime. Don’t shovel the dirt under the rug and say how dirty our place is. Why?
Matthew 7vs5: You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
This don’t apply to me. I don’t have leaders who lobby Congress to take the speck from the other people’s eyes if I have a plank in mine.
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LItraptFE
Guest
It is the right of those individuals to lobby for their beliefs just like the Jewish Lobby, Muslim Lobby, Protestant Lobby, and Secular Lobby. My argument pointed more to the fact that undeniabl, life begins at conception, which was discovered after Roe v. Wade. SCOTUS was wrong when they recognized life at some point after conception, not by their own fault, the science was not there yet, but now it is. As a secular argument against abortion I believe that fits the bill. The pro-choice movement must realize that they are sponsoring the ending of life and they try to disguise that fact from women using words like choice, privacy and rights. Life is above all of those, and not just in my opinion.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
This country was founded upon the following religious dogma:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
You will notice that SCOTUS are the ones engaging in selective enforcement. If you are not yet born, you have no right to life; if you are mentally infirm, you have no right to life; if you have been convicted of murder on bare circumstantial evidence, you have no right to life (I show no partiality and neither does the Church).
There’s more, of course; get rid of the Creator, and you also get rid of the inalienable rights, meaning that all rights—to life, liberty, property, anything—then derive from the consent of the community. That’s called communism.
Liberals are bigger lobbying spenders than conservatives.
This “past” you speak of is a fantasy.
When you start demanding that all UN Secretaries General and for the past ten years along with all UN rapist-peacekeepers be sent to prison for life regardless of when the alleged crime occurred, and regardless of their diplomatic or military immunity, then I’ll take you seriously.
But of course you won’t do that, because those people don’t belong to the particular socioethnic/religious group that you dislike, and because they are mostly liberals like you.
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Windfish
Guest
Can anyone recommend a book on the abortion issue - preferably one that is thorough on the legal history and ample on the contra arguments?
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buffalo
Guest
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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
Lets start this thread over.
Remain on topic this time.
Remain on topic this time.
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puzzleannie
Guest
yes it is called the US Constititution which guarantees the God-given right to life without qualification
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Cat_Herder
Guest
The “it’s just a fetus” argument hinges on viability. They say the fetus can’t survive outside the womb, therefore they say it’s not a person. Well, why can’t the fetus survive outside the womb? Answer: No food or water.Trust me I like that argument but I’m quite sure my classmates could turn that around also for saying that it’s just a fetus… hm… I can’t personally come up with an argument back for that but I’m also Pro-Life so my mind and heart are already set on the unborn baby. Thanks for the argument though.
Ask the person who is making the argument if he/she is viable by that standard. He/she will say yes. Now ask him/her what will happen if he/she is locked up in a room, alone, for three months.
Answer: the same thing that would happen if a fetus was removed from the womb for three months. None of us are “viable.” All of us are dependent on other people to give us food or water.
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IrishJoe
Guest
The viability argument is rubbish. I’m a type 1 diabetic, I’m not ‘viable’ without 4 shots per day. You’re not viable without the planet to supply your food drink and air (man does not live on oxygen alone!) and so on.
The womb is the baby’s natural shelter and environment, if I take some deep dwelling bacteria that lives at the bottom of the sea near volcanic vents and move it to the artic it will die. Is that because it’s not a viable life?
Arguing that a baby is not ‘viable’ or that its not a baby until it is ‘viable’ is plain idiotic.
If they wanted to they could test viabilty as an adult and act like babies - IE lie on their backs naked. Cry when hungry/cold/thirsty. Without someone external to help them they’d be dead so I guess ALL babies are not ‘viable’!
The womb is the baby’s natural shelter and environment, if I take some deep dwelling bacteria that lives at the bottom of the sea near volcanic vents and move it to the artic it will die. Is that because it’s not a viable life?
Arguing that a baby is not ‘viable’ or that its not a baby until it is ‘viable’ is plain idiotic.
If they wanted to they could test viabilty as an adult and act like babies - IE lie on their backs naked. Cry when hungry/cold/thirsty. Without someone external to help them they’d be dead so I guess ALL babies are not ‘viable’!
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buffalo
Guest
Here is something useful:
http://www.abortionfacts.com/image/2nd_level/gavel.jpg
I am pro-choice. I am not one person, but many. Here is what I believe:
The fetus is not a human, just a mass of tissue Click
Abortion is safer than childbirth. Click
Abortion is Safe Click
Every child should be a wanted child. Click
The number of abortions is relatively small.Click
Nobody has the right to impose their morals on me. Click
A woman should be able to control her own body. Click
Abortion must be kept legal, especially for all the rape and incest pregnancies. Click
If abortion is outlawed women will be forced to go to back-alley abortion clinics. Click
Aborting unwanted children reduces the number of abused children. Click
We need to remember that we are overpopulating the planet. Click
Planned Parenthood is a group that focuses on contraception. Click
http://www.abortionfacts.com/image/2nd_level/gavel.jpg
I am pro-choice. I am not one person, but many. Here is what I believe:
The fetus is not a human, just a mass of tissue Click
Abortion is safer than childbirth. Click
Abortion is Safe Click
Every child should be a wanted child. Click
The number of abortions is relatively small.Click
Nobody has the right to impose their morals on me. Click
A woman should be able to control her own body. Click
Abortion must be kept legal, especially for all the rape and incest pregnancies. Click
If abortion is outlawed women will be forced to go to back-alley abortion clinics. Click
Aborting unwanted children reduces the number of abused children. Click
We need to remember that we are overpopulating the planet. Click
Planned Parenthood is a group that focuses on contraception. Click
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