Trying to sort out something said by Augustine

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"Again he writes: “And he was carried in His own hands (i Kings xxi. 13). Who
understands how this could come to pass in a man? For who is carried in his
own hands? A man can be carried in the hands of others, no one is carried in his
own hands. We have not understood how this may be understood literally of
David himself; but we have discovered (how it is fulfilled) in Christ. For Christ
was carried in His own hands when delivering His very Body He says: ‘This is My
Body’ (Matt. xxvi. 22; Mark xiv. 22; Luke xxii. 19). For He was carrying that
Body in His own hands “ (Enarr. in Ps. xxxiii. i, 10). It is alleged that He was
carrying a sign or figure of His Body, the sign receiving the name of the thing
signified. But if this is so, where is the wonder and portent. “No one is carried
in His own hands.” He returns to this theme again in Enarr. in Ps. xxxiii. ii. 2:
‘How was He carried in His hands? Because when He gave His own Body and His
own Blood, He took in His hands what the faithful know; and in a certain
manner (quodam modo) He carried Himself when He said, ‘This is My Body’.""

taken from patrickmadrid.com/Augustine_on_the_Eucharist.pdf

I’ve been trying to sort out the above quote. The “And he was carried in his own hands” part I cannot find in psalms, 1 kings, or 3 kings, all of which I’ve found listed as references for that passage. I’ve seen this often quoted in response to Calvinist’s idea that St. Augustine somehow shares a theology with then, but I don’t feel very comfortable using this quote without some decent reason why the passages don’t line up… Any thoughts?
 
Because this guy is wrong.

I looked up I Kings 21:13, it says nothing even close to what he is saying it does. The same for Psalms. Perhaps I am looking at the wrong passages. Or perhaps he is hoping that by sounding like he knows what he is talking about people will just accept it.

St. Augustine did not believe that the Eucharist is a symbol of Jesus. He, like all good Catholics and Doctors of the Church, believed that Jesus is present in the Eucharist- Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

I wouldn’t quote this guy unless I was talking about misrepresentions on Church theology.
 
Not sure why it’s so tough: “This is my body which will be given up for you”, pretty plain to me. What part of it are you stumbling with?
 
The endnote for the translation in The Faith of the Early Fathers by W. A. Jurgens says “possibly an alternate reading of 3 Kings 20:13”

It is difficult to know exactly where it is. That exact phrase does not appear to be in any modern translation. However, that does not mean the phrase could not have been there accidentally.

Ancient Hebrew did not have spaces to separate words. Neither did it have the additional marks to guide pronunciation. If Augustine read from one of these manuscripts, he may well have seen a string of characters that he interpreted as “he was carried in His own hands.”

This does not mean that Augustine’s interpretation was incorrect.
 
I’m not sure about the 1 or 3 Kings reference, but the citation for the Psalms is not a scriptural reference: it points to the chapter in St. Augustine’s commentary “Enarrations on the Psalms”.

Catholic Answers uses the same quote when defending the Real Presence, and it reads: “Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands” (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

But . . . I don’t see that anywhere, at least in these translation of Augustine’s Enarrations. 😦
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.XXXIII.html
newadvent.org/fathers/1801033.htm

I agree–very confusing! Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can help.
 
allenirvan said:
"Again he writes: “And he was carried in His own hands (i Kings xxi. 13). Who
understands how this could come to pass in a man? For who is carried in his
own hands? A man can be carried in the hands of others, no one is carried in his
own hands. We have not understood how this may be understood literally of
David himself; but we have discovered (how it is fulfilled) in Christ. For Christ
was carried in His own hands when delivering His very Body He says: ‘This is My
Body’ (Matt. xxvi. 22; Mark xiv. 22; Luke xxii. 19). For He was carrying that
Body in His own hands “ (Enarr. in Ps. xxxiii. i, 10). It is alleged that He was
carrying a sign or figure of His Body, the sign receiving the name of the thing
signified. But if this is so, where is the wonder and portent. “No one is carried
in His own hands.” He returns to this theme again in Enarr. in Ps. xxxiii. ii. 2:
‘How was He carried in His hands? Because when He gave His own Body and His
own Blood, He took in His hands what the faithful know; and in a certain
manner (quodam modo) He carried Himself when He said, ‘This is My Body’.""

taken from patrickmadrid.com/Augustine_on_the_Eucharist.pdf

I’ve been trying to sort out the above quote. The “And he was carried in his own hands” part I cannot find in psalms, 1 kings, or 3 kings, all of which I’ve found listed as references for that passage. I’ve seen this often quoted in response to Calvinist’s idea that St. Augustine somehow shares a theology with then, but I don’t feel very comfortable using this quote without some decent reason why the passages don’t line up… Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
The problem arises because the Psalms are numbered differently in the Douay and in most of the translations that are in use today.
Also, in the Douay there are four books of Kings and no books of Samuel. 1 Kings in the Douay is called 1 Samuel in most translations today. (2 Kings Douay=2 Samuel RSV; 3 Kings Douay=1 Kings RSV; 4 Kings Douay=2 Kings RSV)

Psalm 33 in the Douay would be Psalm 34 in most translations
In the Douay, the first verse appears in very tiny print (compared to the rest of the verses). In the RSV, the same information is given to introduce the Psalm but it isn’t assigned a verse number.
DOUAY:
Psalm 33:1 For David, when he changed his countenance before Achimelech, who dismissed him, and he went his way.
33:2 I will bless the Lord at all times, his praise shall be always in my mouth.

RSV:
A Psalm of David, when he feigned madness before Abimelech, so that he drove him out, and he went away.
Psalm 34:1 I will bless the LORD at all times; his praise shall continually be in my mouth.

Altho Juergen’s references Augustine’s words to 3 Kings 20:13 in their notes at the back(see SonCatcher’s post), I think that is an error. As you can see below, in the Psalm (33 Douay) Augustine is commenting on, verse 1 is a definite Augustine is a definite reference to 1 Kings 21:13 (Douay; 1 Samuel 21:13 RSV). Here are a couple of the translations.
1 Kings 21:13 (in the Challoner Douay that I have reads) And he (David) changed his countenance before them, and slipt down between their hands: and he stumbled against the doors of the gate, and his spittle ran down upon his beard.

1 Samuel 21:13 (in the RSV reads) So he changed his behavior before them, and feigned himself mad in their hands, and made marks on the doors of the gate, and let his spittle run down his beard.

The Scripture Augustine had back in the 300’s was obviously different from the ones we have which say “slipt down between their hands”, “in their hands”, …
Wonder which one is closest to THE original. 🙂
 
Moscati said:
I’m not sure about the 1 or 3 Kings reference, but the citation for the Psalms is not a scriptural reference: it points to the chapter in St. Augustine’s commentary “Enarrations on the Psalms”.

Catholic Answers uses the same quote when defending the Real Presence, and it reads: “Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands” (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

But . . . I don’t see that anywhere, at least in these translation of Augustine’s Enarrations. 😦
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.XXXIII.html
newadvent.org/fathers/1801033.htm

I agree–very confusing! Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can help.
Click to expand...
You have to go to Psalm 34. They changed the Psalm numbering to agree with today’s translations.
newadvent.org/fathers/1801034.htm
 
Nita said:
The problem arises because the Psalms are numbered differently in the Douay and in most of the translations that are in use today.
Also, in the Douay there are four books of Kings and no books of Samuel. 1 Kings in the Douay is called 1 Samuel in most translations today. (2 Kings Douay=2 Samuel RSV; 3 Kings Douay=1 Kings RSV; 4 Kings Douay=2 Kings RSV)

Psalm 33 in the Douay would be Psalm 34 in most translations
In the Douay, the first verse appears in very tiny print (compared to the rest of the verses). In the RSV, the same information is given to introduce the Psalm but it isn’t assigned a verse number.
DOUAY:
Psalm 33:1 For David, when he changed his countenance before Achimelech, who dismissed him, and he went his way.
33:2 I will bless the Lord at all times, his praise shall be always in my mouth.

RSV:
A Psalm of David, when he feigned madness before Abimelech, so that he drove him out, and he went away.
Psalm 34:1 I will bless the LORD at all times; his praise shall continually be in my mouth.

Altho Juergen’s references Augustine’s words to 3 Kings 20:13 in their notes at the back(see SonCatcher’s post), I think that is an error. As you can see below, in the Psalm (33 Douay) Augustine is commenting on, verse 1 is a definite Augustine is a definite reference to 1 Kings 21:13 (Douay; 1 Samuel 21:13 RSV). Here are a couple of the translations.
1 Kings 21:13 (in the Challoner Douay that I have reads) And he (David) changed his countenance before them, and slipt down between their hands: and he stumbled against the doors of the gate, and his spittle ran down upon his beard.

1 Samuel 21:13 (in the RSV reads) So he changed his behavior before them, and feigned himself mad in their hands, and made marks on the doors of the gate, and let his spittle run down his beard.

The Scripture Augustine had back in the 300’s was obviously different from the ones we have which say “slipt down between their hands”, “in their hands”, …
Wonder which one is closest to THE original. 🙂
Click to expand...
Ahhh, I suspected something of that sort but wasn’t quite sure about how the verse numberings and such had changed through history. For that matter, I’m not sure that the chapters and verses were numbered at all at that time… Thank you so much for the detailed explanation. As a recovering Calvinist I’m always interested in something Augustine had to say, though it saddens me somewhat to see how myself and many others have misunderstood him. One day, as it seems God is leading me so, I’ll get to change that little caption up there from “Baptist” to “Catholic”…

Moscati, thanks for the links, I was looking for a translation of that but was having a hard time finding one.

Peace
 
From Haydock’s commentary on 1 Kings 21:13 (aka 1 Samuel 21:13):
Stumbled. Hebrew, “wrote, or made figures upon.” Septuagint, “beat the drum upon the gates of the city, and he was carried about, or acted the fool, in his hands, (Greek: parephereto en tais chersin, autou: Amama would have, Greek: auton, their) and he fell against the doors of the gate,” &c. They seem to give a double translation. St. Augustine says, “we cannot understand how David could be carried in his own hands. But we understand how it was verified in Christ. For Christ was carried in his own hands at his last supper, when he gave, or commending, his own body, he said, This, &c., for he then carried his own body in his own hands.” (In Psalm xxxiii. conc. i.) Ferebat enim illud corpus in manibus suis. Amama may laugh at St. Augustine’s ignorance of Hebrew, but the holy doctor was at least a sincere Catholic. (Haydock)
 
allenirvan said:
Ahhh, I suspected something of that sort but wasn’t quite sure about how the verse numberings and such had changed through history. For that matter, I’m not sure that the chapters and verses were numbered at all at that time… Thank you so much for the detailed explanation. As a recovering Calvinist I’m always interested in something Augustine had to say, though it saddens me somewhat to see how myself and many others have misunderstood him. One day, as it seems God is leading me so, I’ll get to change that little caption up there from “Baptist” to “Catholic”…

Moscati, thanks for the links, I was looking for a translation of that but was having a hard time finding one.

Peace
Click to expand...
You are very welcome!

My parents were Baptists, and I was raised in another evangelical denomination–there are lots of us who have made/are making our way towards Rome. 🙂
 
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