Trying to understand marriage

[Cairone]

Excaliber,

I offer this to you as a man who has only been married for two months, but this is what I see.

Marriage is about love. Never let anyone else deceive you about this. Most of the time, when people say that marriage just isn’t about love, there’s a huge misunderstanding on the part of what love is. A lot of people confuse love with sex. Sex isn’t love; sex can be an expression of love; but sex can also be the vilest tool we wield against another human being.

I know. I’ve done so, to my shame.

Love isn’t gushy feelings, either. Those can be great effects of love, to a large extent the rewards of love, but they are not love in themselves. Those feelings rise and fall, depending on the day, the weather, what you last ate, who won the Super Bowl, and so on. They seem a dismal memory when you’ve had a fight and question whether or not you want to continue on with this person, be it friend, significant other, or spouse.

So what is love? Let us look to St. Paul:

“Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, it is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoings, but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Cor 13:4-7, NAB)”

Pay especially close attention to “it does not seek its own interests” and “it bears all things…endures all things.” Love is not just a feeling. It is a choice, a deliberate choice to put the life of another ahead of your own.

Consider the words of Jesus Himself:

“No one has greater love than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. (John 15:13, NAB)”

The greatest love you can ever express for someone is to give, completely and without reservations (by reservations I mean as in reservoir, not misgivings), one’s life. It doesn’t have to mean specifically that you die for that person, but that you live your life for that person.

Marriage itself is an expression of that kind of love, when two people make that commitment to give their lives fully over to each other. It is a choice; love itself is a choice. It can be made wholeheartedly at times, or it can be made slowly and grudgingly, but it is ever, and always a choice. And yes, you can choose differently.

Of course, I need to proceed carefully here, because it seems as though I could condone homosexual marriage, or polygamy. The procreative aspect of marriage, while not the whole story, plays a very important role. How? In the procreative act, we mimic God. In its purest form, we choose to–not because it benefits us, because certainly a child is a great burden–create new life, out of love, for the sole purpose that the child can exist. Recall that God is complete in of Himself. We add nothing to Him. He gave us life because of His infinite love, because He knew we could enjoy living. And consider the headache we’ve caused him! We bicker with him, we cajole him, we bribe him, we turn our backs to him, we cause him inconceivable amounts of pain. Every terrible thing one person can do to another, we have done to God. At every turn, He has to keep guiding us back to the correct path, us kicking and screaming in protest much of the time. And yet, in His infinite love, He still chose to love us, still chose to let us exist. This is the true miracle of procreation, and why it needs to be done in the most exactingly loving way: we choose–of course, with God’s help–to bring into existence someone who never existed before. This person never asked for existence, and even at times may wish he never existed at all. He might rail against us, do terrible things, suffer extraordinary pains–but we brought him into existence because our love for him, because we thought–we hoped–that he would enjoy existing.

Marriage is about love, in totality. The love we express in, hopefully, its complete fullness for another person, and the love we express together in the creation of new life. It is mimicking God. It is loving as God loves.

It is important to have this understanding about marriage, because the primary reason marriages fail is not because the couple were incompatible, or because they couldn’t work things out, but because one or both went into the marriage, and continued the marriage, thinking: “what can I get out of this?” A lot of marriages fail because one or the other thought that they could keep getting hot, passionate sex. Or thought that they had a stable source of income. Or because they would gain another parent for their child. A lot of problems in marriage crop up when the woman reaches her 50’s, and menopause, and suddenly is no longer interested in sex, or at least not near as often. Or one or the other gains a lot of weight, and is no longer interested in sex. Again and again, the root of the dysfunction lies in the fact that one or the other approaches marriage and love thinking “what I can get out of this? How does the marriage benefit me?”

I will tell you honestly right now. While there will be plenty of times marriage benefits you, there will be other times when it does not. When it resoundingly does not. When the marriage itself proves the most painful, most burdensome you have ever experienced in your life. A successful marriage does not last because you are always getting something out of it.

A successful marriage lasts because you are always willing to put something into it.

Let me ask you this. Would you marry the girl of your dreams if you know that, in five years time, she would suffer a severe accident that forces you to give up your whole way of life, all your money, your house, your possessions, and your dreams just so that you can care for her? When you vow to love and cherish your wife through good times and bad, you vow to love and cherish her through times that bad or worse. When you vow to love, to give over your life to that person, that is exactly what you are doing.

And it is very serious that you see this. I will draw some quotes from you:

Things Change. You begin with ideas as to what you want…what happens when you are disapointed how do you know who will work through it and who will give up?

Another thing I would like to add…before the thread gets way off track. I am aware of what marriage is SUPPOSED to be.
You have given me advise I have known for years.

The question is finding people who will DO what is stated in the above quote.

My question is about the searching.

And trying to understand why so many others have failed.

But trust me, I have thought about prayed about and observed marriages for years…I don’t need marriage advise…I need searching advise.

I can’t see another persons heart.

I am also not picky…there are few women that would be out of bounds. I am basicly looking for a spiritualy grounded woman, I would find wicca and tarrot cards and crystal balls etc…etc… unacceptable.

And a good mother, I don’t want to be always worried about if children are in danger of some kind from neglect,while Im working.

Anything else I think can be worked on in marriage.

To be blunt, a true Catholic woman would virtualy guarantee my happiness in marriage. But I am open to the possibility that she may be Orthodox or lutheran…etc…etc
I am also open to meeting someone outside the country.

The quality to stick together…how do you find THAT. How do you know that 10 years from now even
if one or both go through major changes…you will work through them.

What I want is a person who will marry ME for ME and stick to me, And I marry her for her and stick to her and support eachother REGARDLESS of what the problem is.

Notice what you are asking for. You want to find someone who will always love you, will always be faithful to you, will always stay with you. This entirely comes back to you. You want assurance that the answer to the question “what do I get out of this” is always “something”. To a large extent, this means you are going about this the wrong way.

Now, don’t get me wrong. As humans, we are never going to escape the question “what do I get out of this.” No one of us is going to–or perhaps I should say wants to–give ourselves wholly and unconditionally to someone who treat us like dirt. Nor are we going to neglect our own needs when dealing with another person. But we cannot approach the question of marriage with the “what do I get out of this” forefront in our minds. If we’re worried that another person is not going to hold up her end of the bargain when that person may not be anything more than hypothetical, we’re in the the completely wrong mindset. At this point, it’s all about “me”, and none of it is about the potential wife. And this is what I feel needs to be addressed before we start into “how do I find…how do I know…”

(continued…)

 

[Cairone]

(continued from last post)

Think about it this way. What do you lose if you never get married? What do you miss out on if you remain a bachelor the rest of your life? Seriously, make a list of everything you can think of that you would lose, and write out an explanation as to why it is a bad thing to miss out on that.

Once upon a time, my list would have read something like this:

1. sex: I’d miss out on all the pleasure sex brings
2. emotional support: I wouldn’t have someone there to help me when I’m feeling down, or things aren’t going well
3. children: I’d never be able to create the geniuses I know my kids would be.

Completely absent from the list would be something like:

1. sacrifice: I’d never learn how much of myself I can give to another person

Okay, now that we’ve got the sermon out of the way, we can address your question of how to find, and how to know.

The simple answers are as follows:

Q) How do you find someone with all those great qualities you want?

A) You don’t. No one is perfect. But if you’re willing to look for someone who will eventually be your spouse, then the first step is meeting people. You meet people anywhere–in your neighborhood, at church and church activities, in a bar, in clubs. Statistically speaking, if you meet enough people, you’ll eventually meet someone with qualities that you like. And, though the percentages are much more unfavorable, if you meet enough people with qualities that you like, eventually one of them will decide they like your qualities enough to try for–let’s not get ahead of ourselves here–friendship.

There’s a very big reason why I only go this far. It was a realization that I was very slow coming to, and it needs to be spoken. If you can’t be friends, you definitely cannot be spouses. If you cannot be friends without the expectation of eventually becoming spouses, then you cannot be friends. And becoming friends is vital. It is the first step to knowing someone, and the first step in the answer to the second question.

Next, if you have enough friends, there is probability that there will be one that you decide you accept (note–not overlook; if you’re overlooking, you’re denying an aspect of that person, and the relationship isn’t going to last) her shortcomings, her foibles, her less-than-perfection. If you’re really lucky (and we’re pushing statistics hard, now) she’ll accept your shortcomings, your foibles, your less-than-perfection.

And now, at the very fringe of what is possible, there’s the potential that at this point, you’ve found someone that you’re willing to devote yourself to, and she’s found someone she’s willing to devote herself to.

But the key–be willing to extend yourself and make friends. Don’t push, don’t cajole, don’t plead, don’t intimidate. Make friends. At the very least, it starts to teach you how give of yourself to others.

Q) How do you know she’ll love you forever, she’ll like you for always, as long as you’re living, her husband you’ll be?

A) Get to know her. Talk to her. Do things with her. Find out her likes and dislikes. Try to talk philosophy. Try to talk about the most recent movie. Discuss religion. Argue about fast food preferences. Debate politics. Compare books you like. Go camping together. Exercise together. Cook her meals. Let her cook meals for you. Meet her parents. Meet her friends. Introduce her to your parents, your friends. Share dreams. Discuss career options, such as what happens if you get a job where she can’t, or vice versa. Find out what would happen if one of you decided you didn’t want to work, instead simply being a house-spouse. Find out how many children you each want, of what gender, what names those kids will have. Tell her embarrassing stories about yourself (she’ll hear them from your parents, anyway). Get her to tell you embarrassing things about herself.

Don’t have sex. Don’t grope each other. Try not to even make out. A few chaste kisses, holding hands, and hugs is as far as you should go. If you can’t be content with that, then you’re far too interested in taking. If she can’t be content with that, then she’s far too interested in taking. Of course, be clear about how sex before marriage is wrong.

In other words, you have to get to know her. There’s no easy way to find out; there’s only the long, tedious process of slowly building an accurate picture of her. Will she hold some things back? Sure she will. Will you? You’d better believe it. But in talking with her and doing things with her, you begin to understand her.

You know how men complain about how women are so hard to understand? It’s because they don’t take the time to find out. And you need to take that time. It can take years, and there’s no guarantee you’ll like the results. You could date a girl for six years and eventually discover she’s just not someone you’ll devote yourself to. You could date six girls for six years apiece, and not have found your future spouse.

So you have to be patient, you have to be kind. You have to avoid jealousy and envy, especially if she’s more interested in someone else and all your friends are getting married around you. You cannot be pompous or inflated–you are what you are, so present yourself as such. You cannot be rude. You cannot be absorbed with your own self-interests; that is a failure to hold up your part. You cannot be quick-tempered, ready to give up at the first sign of trouble. You cannot brood over anything bad she does to you; resolve it, forgive her, and move on, either with the relationship or to a new one. You cannot rejoice over wrongdoing; no acting holier-than-thou, no exultation that her boyfriend cheated on her and now she’s free for you to approach, no sending her through a guilt-trip. You can rejoice in all the good things, but most importantly, you must rejoice in the truth of what she is and what you are. You must be willing to bear tremendous burdens; you must be willing to believe, to trust, else you can never give of yourself. You must be willing to hope, or you will never have motivation to give of yourself. And you must be willing endure. It won’t happen all at once, and even once it does happen, there will be setback after setback after setback.

“[But] faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Cor 13:13, NAB)”

 

[SarahR]

Now for the hard question.
How do you know the other person
will stay committed to the marriage…REGARDLESS of how you or he could change in the future?

Do you talk about that? is there a quality that you can look for?

What I want is a person who will marry ME for ME and stick to me, And I marry her for her and stick to her and support eachother REGARDLESS of what the problem is.

I haven’t read through all of the other posts, but here’s my answer. You DON’T know. My husband and I had been together for 10 years and countless times we both agreed “divorce isn’t even in our vocabulary”. We discussed it extensively before marriage and during our marriage. We both come from intact families. Both had a history of being active in our faiths. Neither one of us could believe how people would get divorced (except in cases of abuse). But guess what, every person has free will. Entering into a sacred covenant of marriage before God does not remove free will.

But guess what again, God and his grace is bigger…so much bigger…than a wayward spouse. And regardless of what another human person with a fallen nature and concupiscence can dish out to you, God can still produce beautiful fruits.

Wanted to add, God always gives sufficient grace for us to do the right thing, to make the marriage work. But he won’t force us to uphold our vows.

That’s my very limited experience.

editing to add: forgot to mention I am going through a divorce, if that wasn’t clear from my post.

 

[Just_wondering]

This is a great example of how one would know when to make that decision. You owe it to yourself to explore all possibilities that could happen in a marriage, but then there comes a point where you have to decide. No marriage is perfect - if someone tells you that, they don’t know what marriage is. And there are no guarantees that all the preventative measure you take to diminish risks will be enough to sustain your marriage.

Catholics (at least here in the U.S.) are asked to complete either a pre-marriage course or counseling before getting the Sacrament. (It’s commonly known as Pre-Cana classes - in reference to the first miracle Christ performed at the wedding at Cana). The Church takes the marriage vocation seriously, just as they do a religious vocation. It’s our form of “risk-reducing,” so to speak.

Yes, we were planning to go through Pre-Cana classes (I hadn’t noticed that the name was related to the wedding. :doh2: Doh!) this year. Unfortunately, he ended up having to leave the country on Monday, and we didn’t get the chance to meet his priest before he left. Now it’ll be at least a year before we’re in the same country again, I suspect. However, since immigration procedures take about the same length of time as Pre-Cana classes, we’ll start the one when we start the other.

You have gone through a lot, just while dating…that gives you a realistic view of eachother.

I am not very knowledgeable about marriage outside the country. Its not possible that you can marry, but he not be allowed in the country is it?? I have no idea
how that works?? Its not possible that you date for 18 months and he not be alowed in the country right? Im sure its not possible…I am just not knowledgeable on the matter.

Here I go getting in your business again…sorry in advance.

You’re free to marry whomever you like, of course, but you’re not necessarily free to invite that person to live in your country with you. Suppose I fell in love with Osama Bin Laden - should I be allowed to bring him home? My boyfriend has to go through normal immigration procedures like everyone else. It’s possible that he’ll be refused entry - he was caught drinking driving once, and I don’t know how seriously the government will take that. I know it’s a crime and it’s hard for “criminals” to enter the country.

Just for interest’s sake, if you end up dating a foreign citizen, this is the usual way it works: if you try to get them into the country after you get engaged, you need to prove that you’ve been in a relationship by showing phone records, copies of personal correspondence, and any joint purchases you’ve made. Ironically, it helps your case to have lived in sin together. After you apply, it generally takes at least six months to get them permission to enter the country.

If you get married to a foreign citizen outside of the country, it takes MUCH LONGER to get them in. Think two years. And again, you need to prove that your marriage is real, and not just a scheme to get them a green card or whatever.

Once your fiance(e) or spouse enters America on a fiance/spousal visa, they aren’t allowed to leave until their green card is granted. That could be up to another two years. If they leave, they have to start the process all over again. So unless you have a VERY long engagement, you usually don’t have the option to get married in their country, or even to take a honeymoon there. I believe Canada has the same policy in that respect.

International relationships aren’t easy. I have a lot of friends in them, and they are a major source of frustration. However, when you meet the right person, the frustration becomes worth it.

 

[wina]

Yes, we were planning to go through Pre-Cana classes (I hadn’t noticed that the name was related to the wedding. :doh2: Doh!) this year. Unfortunately, he ended up having to leave the country on Monday, and we didn’t get the chance to meet his priest before he left. Now it’ll be at least a year before we’re in the same country again, I suspect. However, since immigration procedures take about the same length of time as Pre-Cana classes, we’ll start the one when we start the other.

You’re free to marry whomever you like, of course, but you’re not necessarily free to invite that person to live in your country with you. Suppose I fell in love with Osama Bin Laden - should I be allowed to bring him home? My boyfriend has to go through normal immigration procedures like everyone else. It’s possible that he’ll be refused entry - he was caught drinking driving once, and I don’t know how seriously the government will take that. I know it’s a crime and it’s hard for “criminals” to enter the country.

Just for interest’s sake, if you end up dating a foreign citizen, this is the usual way it works: if you try to get them into the country after you get engaged, you need to prove that you’ve been in a relationship by showing phone records, copies of personal correspondence, and any joint purchases you’ve made. Ironically, it helps your case to have lived in sin together. After you apply, it generally takes at least six months to get them permission to enter the country.

If you get married to a foreign citizen outside of the country, it takes MUCH LONGER to get them in. Think two years. And again, you need to prove that your marriage is real, and not just a scheme to get them a green card or whatever.

Once your fiance(e) or spouse enters America on a fiance/spousal visa, they aren’t allowed to leave until their green card is granted. That could be up to another two years. If they leave, they have to start the process all over again. So unless you have a VERY long engagement, you usually don’t have the option to get married in their country, or even to take a honeymoon there. I believe Canada has the same policy in that respect.

International relationships aren’t easy. I have a lot of friends in them, and they are a major source of frustration. However, when you meet the right person, the frustration becomes worth it.

Well, I’m engaged with a man who lives far from my country and we have been in our relationship for almost 6 years (long distance).
You may ask why we can stick for these long, the answer is prayer. We both have committed to pray to each other and pray for our relationship. Now we have some problems regarding about my vocation and his annulment. But we don’t give up yet. We still have hope and faith that if it’s God’s will then God will show His ways for us.

See excaliber, the same faith is very important for the relationship and don’t forget to put God first in it and always pray together.

God bless

 

[excaliber]

(continued from last post)

Think about it this way. What do you lose if you never get married? What do you miss out on if you remain a bachelor the rest of your life? Seriously, make a list of everything you can think of that you would lose, and write out an explanation as to why it is a bad thing to miss out on that.

Once upon a time, my list would have read something like this:

1. sex: I’d miss out on all the pleasure sex brings
2. emotional support: I wouldn’t have someone there to help me when I’m feeling down, or things aren’t going well
3. children: I’d never be able to create the geniuses I know my kids would be.

Completely absent from the list would be something like:

1. sacrifice: I’d never learn how much of myself I can give to another person

Okay, now that we’ve got the sermon out of the way, we can address your question of how to find, and how to know.

The simple answers are as follows:

Q) How do you find someone with all those great qualities you want?

A) You don’t. No one is perfect. But if you’re willing to look for someone who will eventually be your spouse, then the first step is meeting people. You meet people anywhere–in your neighborhood, at church and church activities, in a bar, in clubs. Statistically speaking, if you meet enough people, you’ll eventually meet someone with qualities that you like. And, though the percentages are much more unfavorable, if you meet enough people with qualities that you like, eventually one of them will decide they like your qualities enough to try for–let’s not get ahead of ourselves here–friendship.

There’s a very big reason why I only go this far. It was a realization that I was very slow coming to, and it needs to be spoken. If you can’t be friends, you definitely cannot be spouses. If you cannot be friends without the expectation of eventually becoming spouses, then you cannot be friends. And becoming friends is vital. It is the first step to knowing someone, and the first step in the answer to the second question.

Next, if you have enough friends, there is probability that there will be one that you decide you accept (note–not overlook; if you’re overlooking, you’re denying an aspect of that person, and the relationship isn’t going to last) her shortcomings, her foibles, her less-than-perfection. If you’re really lucky (and we’re pushing statistics hard, now) she’ll accept your shortcomings, your foibles, your less-than-perfection.

And now, at the very fringe of what is possible, there’s the potential that at this point, you’ve found someone that you’re willing to devote yourself to, and she’s found someone she’s willing to devote herself to.

But the key–be willing to extend yourself and make friends. Don’t push, don’t cajole, don’t plead, don’t intimidate. Make friends. At the very least, it starts to teach you how give of yourself to others.

Q) How do you know she’ll love you forever, she’ll like you for always, as long as you’re living, her husband you’ll be?

A) Get to know her. Talk to her. Do things with her. Find out her likes and dislikes. Try to talk philosophy. Try to talk about the most recent movie. Discuss religion. Argue about fast food preferences. Debate politics. Compare books you like. Go camping together. Exercise together. Cook her meals. Let her cook meals for you. Meet her parents. Meet her friends. Introduce her to your parents, your friends. Share dreams. Discuss career options, such as what happens if you get a job where she can’t, or vice versa. Find out what would happen if one of you decided you didn’t want to work, instead simply being a house-spouse. Find out how many children you each want, of what gender, what names those kids will have. Tell her embarrassing stories about yourself (she’ll hear them from your parents, anyway). Get her to tell you embarrassing things about herself.

Don’t have sex. Don’t grope each other. Try not to even make out. A few chaste kisses, holding hands, and hugs is as far as you should go. If you can’t be content with that, then you’re far too interested in taking. If she can’t be content with that, then she’s far too interested in taking. Of course, be clear about how sex before marriage is wrong.

In other words, you have to get to know her. There’s no easy way to find out; there’s only the long, tedious process of slowly building an accurate picture of her. Will she hold some things back? Sure she will. Will you? You’d better believe it. But in talking with her and doing things with her, you begin to understand her.

You know how men complain about how women are so hard to understand? It’s because they don’t take the time to find out. And you need to take that time. It can take years, and there’s no guarantee you’ll like the results. You could date a girl for six years and eventually discover she’s just not someone you’ll devote yourself to. You could date six girls for six years apiece, and not have found your future spouse.

So you have to be patient, you have to be kind. You have to avoid jealousy and envy, especially if she’s more interested in someone else and all your friends are getting married around you. You cannot be pompous or inflated–you are what you are, so present yourself as such. You cannot be rude. You cannot be absorbed with your own self-interests; that is a failure to hold up your part. You cannot be quick-tempered, ready to give up at the first sign of trouble. You cannot brood over anything bad she does to you; resolve it, forgive her, and move on, either with the relationship or to a new one. You cannot rejoice over wrongdoing; no acting holier-than-thou, no exultation that her boyfriend cheated on her and now she’s free for you to approach, no sending her through a guilt-trip. You can rejoice in all the good things, but most importantly, you must rejoice in the truth of what she is and what you are. You must be willing to bear tremendous burdens; you must be willing to believe, to trust, else you can never give of yourself. You must be willing to hope, or you will never have motivation to give of yourself. And you must be willing endure. It won’t happen all at once, and even once it does happen, there will be setback after setback after setback.

“[But] faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Cor 13:13, NAB)”

I want to complement you on such a good post. I feel I have gained from it.

You said that marriage should be entered without expecting anything for yourself.

Explain this more please. I disagree but this could be from a misunderstanding.

For example if a wife is physicaly harmed in anyway by a husband,
She SHOULD expect better treatment.

If a husband is spoken to in an abusive manner, he being the head of the family SHOULD expect better treatment.

The bible say’s that if a man deals abusively with his wife his prayers will be hindered. God himself SHOULD expect a husband and wife to conduct themselves in a sertain manner.

Mabey you are talking about GIVING?
Yes there is more happiness in giving then receiving.

If you mean not entering marriage
primarily to receive, and not to give…then I agree with you.

 

[Magicsilence]

As far as I am aware, marriage is intended to get you, your spouse, and your children into perfect communion with God forever (heaven).

It doesn’t always work out perfectly, because human beings are weak and sinful.

In addition, secular society has long painted the picture that marriage is about what you get out of it (sex, companionship, money), so many marriages are built on false premises.

But, ultimately, it is about whether you can accept the human’ness’ of your spouse, physical, psychological, emotional and all other aspects for what they are (not necessarily all great), and work with them to spread God’s Kingdom on earth through the strongest bond that God gave between two people.

Anyway, that’s how I (not married) see it.

 

[Cairone]

You said that marriage should be entered without expecting anything for yourself.

Explain this more please. I disagree but this could be from a misunderstanding.

There is certainly groundwork that needs to be laid to enter a marriage in selfless, loving manner, and there are certain considerations to be made.

For example, suppose we compare marriage to a career (this may be stretching things a little, but I think the analogy may be apt). Now, being a mathematician, I feel that most human beings are capable of understand to a large extent higher mathematics, at least in the applied realm. But why isn’t everyone a mathematician? First, because while most everyone could devote themselves to mathematics, there are other subjects out there many people find more important or better suited to their talents.

As with marriage, we don’t just go out and devote ourselves to anyone. There are people, because of what they need and what we are capable of giving, who do not need what we can give. While in my earlier post I said that marriages didn’t end just because people were incompatible, nevertheless incompatibility is an important aspect to consider. If your world philosophies are not just radically different, but diametrically opposed, there could be a problem. Trying to give yourself to someone who continually, in full knowledge and consent, commits actions you find abhorrent is a daunting task. Jesus could do it; the rest of us have a tendency to fall short.

Consider the problem of a woman who marries an abusive man (or yes, as in the case of my cousin, a man who marries an abusive woman). Perhaps in unfairness, I will work with the stereotype, that she marries him with the intention of changing him, of reforming him. In truth, she has done both of them a disservice: she has withheld herself from him, because what she devotes herself to is not him, but the image of what she believes he could be, if only he made different choices. Now, I’m certainly not blaming her for the abuse (I might question her judgment of sticking around), but there is a matter of unreality in which she approached marriage that undermined her side of the union. A realistic approach (in that she is seeing reality, not that this is in any way an obligation), for her, would be to understand and accept his abuse, and while she might work to help him grow as a person, her love for him all around is unconditional. Now, not many people are capable of that kind of giving, and most of us would agree that no one should give herself over to that kind of situation. But the important thing to notice here is the approach, whether the abused wife is wholly giving of herself, or whether she is reserving a part of her giving in hopes of eventually giving to someone who is different than the abuser before her now.

Now, I understand there’s bound to be a radical rejection of this analysis: how dare I place any blame on her? But placing blame is not what I am doing, and it is not my intent. It is to address your very real concern of how to enter a marriage “expecting nothing for yourself”.

If what I implied is that you can never, at all, expect anything for yourself, then I completely missed my mark. What is important in marriage is that concerns for yourself are secondary to concerns for your spouse. That doesn’t mean that concerns for yourself don’t exist or have to be completely repressed. Quite often, concerns for yourself coincide with concerns for your spouse. Other times there will be conflict, and you have to be able to judge what is actually giving of yourself.

Consider a man who believes that his wife is obligated to have sex with him whenever he wants. It may seem that I am advocating she give him sex whenever he wants, but that is not the case at all. In surrendering to his lusts, she could be enabling a dangerous addiction to continue unabated. She might give him sex because she doesn’t disagree with him on the issue, but most of what I’ve seen is that she agrees to have sex because it is less of a headache than dealing with the whining, pleading, arguing, etc. In the latter case, she is not giving per se, but taking the path of least resistance. Sometimes giving to your spouse does not seem like giving on the surface.

(As an aside, I think you can see the problem with trying to state anything specific: it is all very contingent on the exact circumstances.)

The important thing to realize is that part of the whole giving completely of yourself to another person is finding the person that you are willing to give completely to. You are unique, and thus are not interchangeable with anyone else. When you give of yourself, you are not giving of a nature that can be substituted by any other Joe-blow that comes around. You are giving of you, a person, not a hunk of meat.

The distinction that must be made, then, is that entering a marriage in a selfless and loving manner is not an obliteration of self (i.e. you’re not becoming a mindless drone obeying your spouse’s every whim, no matter what you see on TV). You are giving of yourself–not just the body, but the soul. The man who insists on sex whenever he wants it is guilty of ignoring that issue: his wife is not just an interchangeable female body for him to use to sate himself. If the wife is willing to only be an interchangeable female body for him, then she is guilty as well.

In other words, the search for a spouse is, in a lot of ways, searching for someone for whom we can be something other than another interchangeable sack of meat. But yes, it is important to find someone who is something other than an interchangeable sack of meat to us. If either condition is missing, then we cannot give fully of ourselves, and the marriage will not work.

To sum up, before I ramble on too long, to suggest that I said that cannot enter marriage without expecting anything for yourself is not quite right. In marriage, two people are supposed to devote themselves to each other, and there is no problem with expecting that. But you have to understand that, to a large extent, that entering marriage with a “what do I get out of this” mentality is not holding up your end of the devotion, and runs the risk of treating your potential mate as an interchangeable sack of meat. But you’re right to be concerned about yourself, too, because if all of what makes you ‘you’ is suppressed and subsumed in the giving to your potential mate, then you cannot give any more than any other interchangeable sack of meat.

 

[ecp007]

Another thing I would like to add…before the thread gets way off track. I am aware of what marriage is SUPPOSED to be.
You have given me advise I have known for years.

The question is finding people who will DO what is stated in the above quote.

Well, a good place to start is by having a long courtship that goes through different events and times of year, and seeing if the person is willing and able to stick to their commitment to you. How are they at sticking to commitments with other family members and work? Have they made responsible choices in their life? Do they show the capacity to delay gratification and sacrifice? Do they want to stay married to one person, forever? Do they see it as the **only **option.

I told my husband when he proposed: I am not getting a divorce, period. So don’t cheat on me, or be a gambler, or be an alcoholic, or be a bad father, because we have a long life in front of us, and I can make your life miserable, but I won’t divorce you.

Again, these were just words of a story, like what you said about the wife getting fat, but the point was / is: divorce is not an option for me. So, I spent a long time finding out about my fiance and how he behaved in different situations. Making sure that he didn’t take “the easy way out”, or go for the “short cut” or the “easy win”. And making sure that divorce was not an option for him either.

So, we have been married for 16 years. Have had many ups an downs, but at no time has the thought of divorce or split even come up in any conversation. It is just NOT one of the tools available for us to solve our problems.

Both of our parents are still married 50+ years, so we had good examples. I think it is harder for children of divorce.

I wish you good luck. There is nothing more assuring in this world, then knowing that I am loved by another person and that I can face my life with a partner.