Tuam Mother and Baby Home in Ireland: the Trouble With the Septic Tank Story (Story is a Hoax)

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It was suggested today that the Irish government allowed the children in these homes to be used to test vaccines and medicines before they were used in the general population. Every day, a new and more horrible eye-witness account is published. My brother (father of my Godson) has vowed that he will break completely from the Church (he is essentially lapsed but had my Godson baptised) because of this new scandal.

Please pray unceasingly for the people of Ireland; it seems that there is no time to heal between one horror and the next and people are very hurt, angry and disillusioned. Pray also for the children of those poor wounded mothers and for the orders that sheltered them in an age when their own families wouldn’t, or couldn’t care for them. My beloved faith is being portrayed as the antithesis to everything it truly is and hardly a voice has been raised in defence or challenge.

Jenny x
Prayers for you and your brother.
The reason these places came about was because of segregation and the hospitals not giving them care. Was it ideal? I think it was the best they had to offer given the circumstances of everyone, it seemed like, turning their backs on them.
I sure hope they were not subjected to tests by the state. I do believe, or hope, that vaccinations against these diseases weren’t denied them. I guess if you look at in that light, we are all part of the vaccination experiment as we undergo these shots?
 
It was suggested today that the Irish government allowed the children in these homes to be used to test vaccines and medicines before they were used in the general population. Every day, a new and more horrible eye-witness account is published. My brother (father of my Godson) has vowed that he will break completely from the Church (he is essentially lapsed but had my Godson baptised) because of this new scandal.

Please pray unceasingly for the people of Ireland; it seems that there is no time to heal between one horror and the next and people are very hurt, angry and disillusioned. Pray also for the children of those poor wounded mothers and for the orders that sheltered them in an age when their own families wouldn’t, or couldn’t care for them. My beloved faith is being portrayed as the antithesis to everything it truly is and hardly a voice has been raised in defence or challenge.

Jenny x
Nothing that a few Solicitor Letters to the Newspapers that are spreading these lies would not cure, this needs to be done, I am fed up with the Catholic Church always being attacked, while others go around bombing, and causing general mayhem and nothing is said afterwards,
 
And the original thread has 26 pages of debate (most of the posts blasting the nuns and the Catholic Church.)
 
From Forbes:

“In the 19th century, deep brick-lined shafts were constructed and covered with a large slab which often doubled as a flatly laid headstone. These were common in 19th-century urban cemeteries……Such tombs are still used extensively in Mediterranean countries. I recently saw such structures being constructed in a churchyard in Croatia. The shaft was made of concrete blocks, plastered internally and roofed with large concrete slabs. "
If this happened as described, it was certainly an atrocity. It shouldn’t turn any Catholic away from the Church though unless they’re just looking for a reason to turn away. Nuns are people too and that means that there may have been some pretty bad and sinful ones in that particular convent at that particular time–especially in light of the general attitude of society at that time toward unwed mothers and their babies… None the less, it is as big an error to judge the entire Catholic church by a few nuns in Ireland in the rather distant past as it is to trash the entire Catholic church over the 4%-or whatever number I remember it turned out to be–who were pedophile priests. (Though the Church certainly sinned by moving those few pedophile priests around rather than to turn them over to the cops immediately and now the church as a whole must pay the price for that little lapse in judgment.) 🤷
 
I’ve read the article that you have suggested and I ask again, where is the evidence that the Church and its institutions hated unwed mothers and their children?

Surely the fact that the Church invested buildings and nuns in an effort to help unwed mothers and their children would speak against the charge that they hated them.

I know there have been past attempts by secularists to argue that guilt is bad and portray the Church as evil because its dogmas ‘create’ and ‘encourage’ guilt. With this in mind it has tried to paint the Church in the most evil of lights. The worldwide beat-up with this story is just the latest attempt.

The manufactured morality of removing guilt from society has been far more socially destructive and uncompassionate than even any imagined bogey man historical Catholic Church.

Again, I ask for evidence.

The Church has invested billions of dollars in Africa caring for those with the terminal condition of AIDS. Does the Church hate those outcasts also?

Mother Theresa and her nuns cared for the poor in Calcutta. Does the Church hate those outcasts also?

I find your charge that the Catholic Church hated unwed mothers and their children to be as offensive as it is ridiculous.
I think part of the problem is that we may have a miss communication. I never said that the Catholic Church hated unwed mothers. What I did say was that:
"MacBP:
We were certainly complicit in creating and enforcing a culture where illegitimate children were stigmatized and their mothers were made to suffer.
Given the great prominence of the Catholic Church in Irish society, I think it’s fair to say that the Church had a hand in creating and maintaining Irish culture. Disputing that would require you to either claim that the Catholic Church was not influential in Ireland or that influential religious groups do not affect culture.

The question, then, should be whether unwed mothers and their children were stigmatized in Irish society. In addition to the overwhelming amount of commentary saying that this is the case, we have Tuskar Rock’s post which suggests this to be true. This book review summarizes a scholarly book on the subject which discusses how that stigmatization lead to the practice of infanticide.

You may, rightly, point out that I have yet to demonstrate where the Church has specifically taught that unwed mothers are bad or to stigmatize their children. On this point I will concede that I cannot. I would, however, challenge you demonstrate how the Church worked to end the aforementioned stigmatization. I would bet that you can’t. This is despite the fact that She had the power, influence, and means to do so. This would suggest that the Church is at least complicit in maintaining the status quo.

I absolutely agree with you that there is a widespread and unfair attempt to cast the Church in a negative light for holding definitive moral stances on unpopular issues. I’m also in full agreement that the Church does a lot of wonderful things for the poor and sick. Unfortunately, while Church has much to be proud of She has also caused some evils. We should expect that! The Church is made up of sinners, and those sinners will sometimes do bad things. The important thing to do is to acknowledge our flaws, seek forgiveness, provide restitution where possible and resolve to do better in the future.
I find it a critique that is shallow, self-serving and mis-representative.

You have to define what the writer means by ‘the Church will punish you’. If it is in reference to the manufactured morality mentioned above which tried to ‘eliminate guilt’ then it is the writer who should be made to defend his view in the light of modern history.
I think the writer was pointing out that because of the existing stigma, an unwed woman who became pregnant would either have to have an abortion or face considerable societal stigmatization. This is unique to the Irish situation. Even on the CAF I have seen people making disparaging comments about teenage mothers who become pregnant. On the one hand, I understand why. I think we can all agree that the young woman in question should not have been having sex when she was not prepared to raise a baby. On the other hand, shaming and criticizing these women only motivates them to have an abortion.

There is a time and place to teach the evils of premarital sex and of having sex without being open to the possibility of new life. That time is not after the act has happened. Women in these situations are extremely vulnerable and need support, protection and the assurance of safety. Promoting a truly pro-life culture requires all of us to treat children, regardless of the circumstance of their conception, as gifts and it requires us to treat the mother accordingly.

I understand that it is extremely difficult to tread the line between loving the sinner and hating the sin. I don’t think the Church should be hated for missing the balance, but I do think it’s fair to acknowledge when we have gone too far the other way.
 
Prayers for you and your brother.
The reason these places came about was because of segregation and the hospitals not giving them care. Was it ideal? I think it was the best they had to offer given the circumstances of everyone, it seemed like, turning their backs on them.
I sure hope they were not subjected to tests by the state. I do believe, or hope, that vaccinations against these diseases weren’t denied them. I guess if you look at in that light, we are all part of the vaccination experiment as we undergo these shots?/

Right Hopey, and a lot of things were done differently many years ago and we can’t judge them by today’s standards. I think we will have enough of our own things to be judged for in our own day, Such as Abortion, Birth Control, same sex actions. divorce and remarriage, cohabitating, etc. God Bless, Memaw
 
It was suggested today that the Irish government allowed the children in these homes to be used to test vaccines and medicines before they were used in the general population. Every day, a new and more horrible eye-witness account is published. My brother (father of my Godson) has vowed that he will break completely from the Church (he is essentially lapsed but had my Godson baptised) because of this new scandal.

Please pray unceasingly for the people of Ireland; it seems that there is no time to heal between one horror and the next and people are very hurt, angry and disillusioned. Pray also for the children of those poor wounded mothers and for the orders that sheltered them in an age when their own families wouldn’t, or couldn’t care for them. My beloved faith is being portrayed as the antithesis to everything it truly is and hardly a voice has been raised in defence or challenge.

Jenny x
Perpetuating unsubstantiated stores like this is what causes confusion and doubt to many. It is better not to publish this kind of stuff without true verification. Don’t be surprised if more mud comes out to throw at the Church. It’s the name of the game!!. We seem to forget the 8th Commandment. God Bless, Memaw
 
Nothing that a few Solicitor Letters to the Newspapers that are spreading these lies would not cure, this needs to be done, I am fed up with the Catholic Church always being attacked, while others go around bombing, and causing general mayhem and nothing is said afterwards,
👍
 
MacBP,

You made the comment that the attitude in the past was one of hating the sin and also hating the sinner. Your posts were very strident in connecting this to the Catholic Church.

If you are going to backtrack now and not use the word ‘hate’ but downgrade the charge to one where the Catholic Church is to be blamed for a cultural ostracising attitude then this is a step in the right direction but it is still unfair.

The Catholic Church spoke out every day in thousands of venues across Ireland with homilies on the Gospel. We can go through the list of Gospel readings that would apply to loving the sinner if you like. They recruited men and women and raised money all over Ireland to help people who needed it, including unwed mothers. If these people dedicated their time and money to helping such people, how can they be charged with hating / disliking them?

Please have a rethink about your logic when you claim that if there were any bad attitudes in Ireland during that time then the CC must have been complicit because they supposedly had so much control over peoples lives. Were there not any murders in Ireland during that time; no robberies; no rapes; no lying?

Of course there were. Following your logic, because there were such things the CC must not have spoken against them and continuing with that logic leads to the charge that the CC must have actually been complicit.

Remember how the CC spoke out against violence during the Troubles. Having a strong presence in society does not mean you are automatically responsible for attitudes that are bad. If you are going to make such an assertion you need to have proof.

It is absolutely the case that the CC has to constantly re-examine itself against the gospel values, but there has been an industry created in attacking the CC with little evidence and extremely bad logic and assumptions.

Such an industry is intellectually dishonest and creates a group hate mentality against the Church. It is heartening to see here on CA that so many people have recognised and opposed this mentality. Well done CA. 👍
 
Mostly anecdotal, although I’m unsure how you would provide other forms of evidence. This column does a fairly good job putting the situation into context. Its not at all anti-Catholic! His description of the culture of the the time is illuminating.
This is a good example of no good deed goes unpunished. yes these women were ostracized and reviled. Thrown out of their homes-left to fend for themselves. It was the good Nuns who took them in-gave them a place to sleep ,fed them, made sure their children go educated. Yet they are the ones being slimed.
 
Perpetuating unsubstantiated stores like this is what causes confusion and doubt to many. It is better not to publish this kind of stuff without true verification. Don’t be surprised if more mud comes out to throw at the Church. It’s the name of the game!!. We seem to forget the 8th Commandment. God Bless, Memaw
My apologies, Meemaw; I did not intend to keep the ball rolling. I just wanted to express (poorly) the tsunami of anti Catholicism and horror stories in Ireland right now. I’ve been fending off Facebook attacks -from friends - since the story broke. I live in Ireland; this is not just a squib story way down on the International pages; it’s on every front page and every update. Lies, lies and lies, but those lies are becoming truth to many!
 
Thankyou for posting this. It is incredible that news services are so quick to report lies about the Catholic Church.
The Irish media and government are anti-catholic. That is a fact.
 
The Catholic Church in Ireland is facing enormous criticism because of a purported atrocity–that the bodies of 800 children were “dumped” in a septic tank decades ago at St. Mary’s Catholic home for unwed members. However, the woman historian cited by the media as the source of this information denies she is the source of such a story, and says that she never said children’s bodies were “dumped,” nor that they were put into a septic tank. She explains too that this story contains impossibilities, and insists that any such children buried on the grounds of the Catholic home would have died of natural causes over the years.
www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuan-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393
Something about this story didn’t sit with me from the off, with some just believe what the media said as gospel I was remaining skeptical as I know the Irish media and government is anti-Catholic. Here are a few interesting articles about the government mainly our Taoiseach.

An Taoiseach Enda Kenny (prime minister) of Ireland was at a meeting with Pope and ignored him throughout.
wdtprs.com/blog/2012/09/enda-kenny-texting-during-an-audience-with-benedict-xvi/

Enda kenny declared he is “a Taoiseach who happens to be Catholic but not a Catholic Taoiseach” after criticism by the Church of his abortion Bill. What did he mean? Either he’s a catholic or he isn’t.
m.independent.ie/irish-news/enda-kenny-insists-i-am-not-a-catholic-taoiseach-29339843.html

Former minister of Defence minister Alan Shatter has been accused of being prejudiced against the Catholic Church over his refusal to allow the army to provide a guard of honour for a procession during the International Eucharistic Congress in Dublin recently.
irishexaminer.com/ireland/politics/shatter-prejudiced-against-catholics-201057.html
 
It makes you want to flame torch the media. I know they serve a proper purpose in our world but these journalists need to be held accountable for their scurrilous scandalising at the expense of deceased children. When freedom of speech becomes abuse of a freedom… people need to be held accountable in my opinion.
So very true.
 
The story’s made it to the NY Times.

Facts Are Murky on Location of Dead Babies in Ireland
Where and how the bodies of the children were actually disposed of remains a mystery — and a scandal in tiny Tuam, population 8,200, that has for the moment revealed more about the ways local lore and small-town sleuthing can be distorted in the news media juggernaut than about what actually went on decades ago at the state-funded home for unmarried pregnant women run by the Bon Secours Sisters, a Roman Catholic order.
 
My apologies, Meemaw; I did not intend to keep the ball rolling. I just wanted to express (poorly) the tsunami of anti Catholicism and horror stories in Ireland right now. I’ve been fending off Facebook attacks -from friends - since the story broke. I live in Ireland; this is not just a squib story way down on the International pages; it’s on every front page and every update. Lies, lies and lies, but those lies are becoming truth to many!
Sorry about that. As Bishop Fulton Sheen said, A lie is still a lie,even if everyone believes it!, God Bless, memaw
 
Hmmm. Looks like the original place I read the article, an Irish satirical news-site, truly was the appropriate place for this story.
 
MacBP,

You made the comment that the attitude in the past was one of hating the sin and also hating the sinner. Your posts were very strident in connecting this to the Catholic Church.

If you are going to backtrack now and not use the word ‘hate’ but downgrade the charge to one where the Catholic Church is to be blamed for a cultural ostracising attitude then this is a step in the right direction but it is still unfair.
I didn’t intend my comment about the sinner/sinner distinction to be interpreted like it was. In one of his talks, Dr. Kreeft makes the point that modern society has exactly the opposite problems of ancient society. Ancient society was very good at pointing out evils and explicitly condemning them as evil. The problem is that in the course of condemning evil they would ostracize and castigate those individuals who performed these actions. A good comparison would be the way that homosexual were treated in the past.

In Ireland we see that those woman who conceived outside the bonds of marriage were shamed, ostracized and outcast. That’s something (I’m hoping) we can both agree. The use of the love/hate was reference to the famous dictum “love the sinner and hate the sin”.
The Catholic Church spoke out every day in thousands of venues across Ireland with homilies on the Gospel. We can go through the list of Gospel readings that would apply to loving the sinner if you like. They recruited men and women and raised money all over Ireland to help people who needed it, including unwed mothers. If these people dedicated their time and money to helping such people, how can they be charged with hating / disliking them?
I’ve never said that Gospel doesn’t have plenty to say about loving the sinner. That doesn’t necessarily mean that individuals priests chose to emphasize those passages or apply them to this social issue. I’ll tell you what. I will gladly concede you’re right if you can show me **any evidence at all ** that Church in Ireland made a widespread campaign to lessen social stigma surrounding these women. Given the severity of the problem, it should have warranted at least as much response as the immigration issue. The USCCB has been very vocal and very public about their opposition to same-sex marriage and abortion. Was there a comparable movement by the Irish Catholic bishops is response to this problem?
Please have a rethink about your logic when you claim that if there were any bad attitudes in Ireland during that time then the CC must have been complicit because they supposedly had so much control over peoples lives. Were there not any murders in Ireland during that time; no robberies; no rapes; no lying?

Of course there were. Following your logic, because there were such things the CC must not have spoken against them and continuing with that logic leads to the charge that the CC must have actually been complicit.

Remember how the CC spoke out against violence during the Troubles. Having a strong presence in society does not mean you are automatically responsible for attitudes that are bad. If you are going to make such an assertion you need to have proof.
It’s not that there were some bad attitudes or that a minority of individuals felt this way. By all accounts this was the prevailing attitude in Ireland. Claiming that the Church tried and failed to counter this attitude would be akin to claiming that the Church is completely incapable of influencing the Irish people (untrue, as we saw with attitudes surrounding abortion). In circumstances where people rebel against Church authority (e.g. contraception, homosexuality, abortion) we note that there is a motivating factor for that rebellion.

In this case we aren’t so lucky. Let me ask you this question. Why were the Irish so vehemently opposed to pregnancy outside of marriage it wasn’t for the Church in Ireland? Are you saying that it’s complete coincidence that the Irish strongly opposed behavior that was strongly opposed by the Catholic Church? These attitudes had to come from somewhere.
It is absolutely the case that the CC has to constantly re-examine itself against the gospel values, but there has been an industry created in attacking the CC with little evidence and extremely bad logic and assumptions.

Such an industry is intellectually dishonest and creates a group hate mentality against the Church. It is heartening to see here on CA that so many people have recognised and opposed this mentality. Well done CA. 👍
Ultimately, the Church is a victim of Her own power. When you have the kind of power that Church wielded in Ireland, the wielder of that power gets the credit for the good and the bad. Either you’re claiming that the most powerful, influential institution in Ireland was incapable influencing the attitudes of its members on an issue of sexual morality or you’re forced to concede that the Church failed to act in the interest of a marginalized segment of Irish society.
 
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