Tubal Ligation and Con-validation

[mdstanzel]

Please answer this carefully like you love God and value your soul. I believe that I know what the Church supposedly teaches on this point. But to clarify I would like more (name removed by moderator)ut. Getting a priest to give you time is like getting them to allow you to pull their teeth out without deadening the pain. You have time and resources that I do not have access to. I feel that the Church owes me because the Church led me down a very hate filled path over the years and did nothing to come to my aid. After 17 years and several miraculous events, my wife and I both believe that God has called us both (me back) to the Catholic Church. My wife is in RCIA and my 12 year old is in RCIC. Our 2 youngest children are being baptized next month. And finally our marriage is schedule to be con-validated this month. I’m confused about needing this since I walked away and actively/publicly joined a non-denominational (Church of Christ) faith. I do not want to fight it as I did at first, because I believed that God has clearly worked wonders in our lives. The priest elaborates that the Holy Spirit has not descended on our marriage yet and that after the sacramental marriage that will take place.

Well, to complicate this more, my wife for her own trust issues had a tubal ligation. I was not really supportive of it (still Catholic minded on this subject) but she did it anyway. Can our marriage be con-validated?

 

[Karin]

Please answer this carefully like you love God and value your soul. I believe that I know what the Church supposedly teaches on this point. But to clarify I would like more (name removed by moderator)ut. Getting a priest to give you time is like getting them to allow you to pull their teeth out without deadening the pain. You have time and resources that I do not have access to. I feel that the Church owes me because the Church led me down a very hate filled path over the years and did nothing to come to my aid. After 17 years and several miraculous events, my wife and I both believe that God has called us both (me back) to the Catholic Church. My wife is in RCIA and my 12 year old is in RCIC. Our 2 youngest children are being baptized next month. And finally our marriage is schedule to be con-validated this month. I’m confused about needing this since I walked away and actively/publicly joined a non-denominational (Church of Christ) faith. I do not want to fight it as I did at first, because I believed that God has clearly worked wonders in our lives. The priest elaborates that the Holy Spirit has not descended on our marriage yet and that after the sacramental marriage that will take place.

Well, to complicate this more, my wife for her own trust issues had a tubal ligation. I was not really supportive of it (still Catholic minded on this subject) but she did it anyway. Can our marriage be con-validated?

First …welcome home
What has your priest said about this? He should be the one you should be seaking advice about this from

 

[mdstanzel]

First …welcome home
What has your priest said about this? He should be the one you should be seaking advice about this from

That’s the problem. This should be a “Universal” answer in a Universal Church. Let me make this simple for everyone reading this post. I need to start a blog. But here it is in 2 posts…
I was baptized in the Catholic Church as an infant. My father was Catholic but mom was non-denomination. He went to war from my age 3-5. Upon returning they separated and divorced against his will. Mom raised us nothing. I move with Dad along with his parents (faithful Catholics). I received my first communion at 14 preceded by confession. At 16 began a very deep relationship with God through the Rosary, contemplative prayer and intense scripture study (completed the entire bible including references from my NAB), and catechism book. I was confirmed at 17 committed to the seminary to serve God. However a senior seminarian kept trying to get strangely close to me. When my suspicions were confirmed I distanced myself from him the beginning of the spring semester. At the end of my spring semester my previous semester Logic professor and chosen spiritual director invited me to a weekend relaxation before finals. He was in my home diocese and I did not suspect anything. When something seemed strange I put it out of my mind thinking that Satan was just messing with my mind. Well he made a pass on me in my sleep (explains why he opened a 20 old bottle of wine the night before and tried to get me to drink more – that alcoholic dad came in use for something).

After leaving the seminary, I went through hell over issues about priests needing to be married so that the children and vulnerable adults would be safe. I struggled with how the diocese could blow off this issue so easily and let me go without even really talking to me. I was in denial and in real pain. I had seen too many priests acting in ways that were too inappropriate. Eight years later while in the military and planning to return to the seminary to help “change” things, i.e. to get the Church to be more proactive in protecting children and young adults (begging for pain). Over my life I heard one contradiction after another, both in the Church, in the Catholic family, and by example by the Church leaders (both lay and cleric). I still am dealing with this issue in my mid 40’s. I felt betrayed by what I thought was Christ’s Church and its leaders and I strongly believed that they were hiding so many bad things (lots of sin) and just kept getting away with it. Long story shortened, I met a very Christian woman from a very dedicated Christian family. At one point I tried to push away from her to avoid the painful stories that I had heard about as well as my own as one of the children. When I went for dispensations and was surprised by the stern military diocese resistance to allowing a dispensation to marry a non-Catholic in a Protestant Church by her minister. I found out that I would need 2 or 3 dispensations to marry a woman that I (still) believed God intended me to marry (a miracle filled story with Spirit felt guidance).

My wife’s family are militant opponents of the Catholic Church as against other non-“Church of Christ” churches. They militantly worked on my faith during that time, exacerbating a problem that I already wanted to change by convicting my life to Christ as a priest. In my despair and injured state from all the personal experiences and problems with the clergy, confused teachings and messed up family, I began to doubt that the Catholic Church believed its own teachings and that the Church had been lost somewhere along the way. My wife’s father, a bishop, eventually convinced me to doubt enough to fear for my soul. Her 2 oldest brothers are pulpit ministers and there were about 3 or 4 deacons in the family that gave very persuasive arguments. And with my own experiences with messed up clergy I felt that I needed to re-evaluate my conscience. In a desperate act I asked to be baptized and they hurried me over to the sanctuary to be baptized at 7:30 at night to save my soul - thinking that my infant baptism was invalid. I walked away from Catholicism that night and militantly supportive of the new cause - to help “restore” the early church. In this bold act, I prayed that I had made the right choice. I asked God to protect me and help me find the “real” Church.

 

[mdstanzel]

Over the past 17 years there were signs of my Catholicism, but I pushed the thought away thinking that Satan was tempting me. But many disappointing things in my new faith led me to doubt that they had it right as well. Within 3 years of my new faith, I was “tempted” - by Satan in my mind - to return to Catholicism. I even remember telling God that it would have to be a miracle and include my family because I couldn’t live with myself separate in faith from my wife. I had too much on the line. Year went by and the disappointment increased like a “J” curve. My mother, brother, grandfather, step-father and father all died between 1996 and 2000. I was a serious basket case and was ready to leave the “church of Christ” [Alexander Campbell movement] because I was convinced of its seriousness of really restoring the early church. I was very convinced that I’d look into Orthodox because I had discovered their existence and numbers to be strong. I thought to myself that maybe this is the “real” Church that Christ established. About 3 months ago our cable network decided to rearrange all of our channels after being bought out. Our system read channel 8 news and programs, but it was really EWTN. We reported it and joked about it as maybe its God telling us we need to be Catholic. Well after the prescribed period passed that was supposed to have fixed the television the problem never went away.

One expletive after another from my very anti-Catholic wife led me to call myself [If you want something done right – get a man to do it]. They alledgedly fixed the problem. By this time we’re hooked, research Da Vinci Code information and early church writing (the Ancient Church Fathers). I stumble across the didache……whooooohhhhh. We were both floored. I read Clement’s writing to the Corinthians. We found a massive information on the Church online. FINALLY! I can see for myself. I fought it off so much, but one day I just couldn’t even function at work so I called in sick. Later that day I contacted a priest from the Catholic bookstore while driving everyone crazy with my miraculous story. I told them everything. I think the Holy Spirit is working on my family and I feel so compelled to return to the Catholic Church. I was in shock. I felt like I needed to be committed because returning back to the Catholic Church seemed so right. I told them all the bad things that had happened to me, but that an Orthodox Church priest set me straight about the sexual scandal issues in that the same thing is happening to Protestant ministers across the board.

To sum up a shortened story, my wife is in RCIA, my son is in RCIC, my 2 youngest children are being baptized next month at the earliest and our marriage is being con-validated this month. Whooohhh.

…then insert my original post here.

 

[giagustine]

I do not have a definitive answer to your question, but can share our experience with you.

We are recent converts from Protestantism. My husband had a vasectomy years ago for the sake of my health. Because of our desire to be sinless in this area and to conform our lives to the teachings of the Church, my husband was willing to reverse his vasectomy (we would have practiced NFP). We did ask for the wisdom of one of the top moral theologians in the Church and were advised that we were not required to have it reversed since it was initially done in good conscience (we were not Catholics when it was done) and for a good reason.

I know that our experience is not exactly the same as yours but perhaps it can help answer some of your questions???

Also, congratulations on rejoining the Church!

 

[mdstanzel]

As you may see, I’m not your average Catholic. I’m frustrated with the cafateria Catholics that do not know their own beliefs. My wifes family can run circles around most Bible Only Protestants. Catholics are like Scott Hahn says “like picking off ducks in a [pond?]”.

There are some “laws” that stay the same no matter what. This should not be confusing if you know your stuff.

---

for me later
Just found a new book on EWTN to buy. “From Scandal to Hope” by Father Benedict Groeschel

 

[Karin]

As you may see, I’m not your average Catholic. I’m frustrated with the cafateria Catholics that do not know their own beliefs. My wifes family can run circles around most Bible Only Protestants. Catholics are like Scott Hahn says “like picking off ducks in a [pond?]”.

There are some “laws” that stay the same no matter what. This should not be confusing if you know your stuff.

---

for me later
Just found a new book on EWTN to buy. “From Scandal to Hope” by Father Benedict Groeschel

Well first off I dont know who you are calling a cafeteria Catholic…I do know my faith…do I know every little bit of Canon Law in regards to RCIA and sterilization…nope
that is why we have canon lawyers and Priests who can guide you…
If it is not confusing as you state then what is your answer? You seem to imply that you already know it (the answer).

 

[mdstanzel]

That wasn’t meant for you.

 

[Karin]

That wasn’t meant for you.

Ah…ok then I aplogize for the tone in my post…

 

[Karin]

Here is the Canon Law
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P46.HTM

CHAPTER X.
**THE CONVALIDATION OF MARRIAGE **
Art. 1.
SIMPLE CONVALIDATION
Can. 1156 §1. To convalidate a marriage which is invalid because of a diriment impediment, it is required that the impediment ceases or is dispensed and that at least the party conscious of the impediment renews consent.
§2. Ecclesiastical law requires this renewal for the validity of the convalidation even if each party gave consent at the beginning and did not revoke it afterwards.
Can. 1157 The renewal of consent must be a new act of the will concerning a marriage which the renewing party knows or thinks was null from the beginning.
Can. 1158 §1. If the impediment is public, both parties must renew the consent in canonical form, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 1127, §2.
§2. If the impediment cannot be proven, it is sufficient that the party conscious of the impediment renews the consent privately and in secret, provided that the other perseveres in the consent offered; if the impediment is known to both parties, both are to renew the consent.
Can. 1159 §1. A marriage which is invalid because of a defect of consent is convalidated if the party who did not consent now consents, provided that the consent given by the other party perseveres.
§2. If the defect of consent cannot be proven, it is sufficient that the party who did not consent gives consent privately and in secret.
§3. If the defect of consent can be proven, the consent must be given in canonical form.
Can. 1160 A marriage which is null because of defect of form must be contracted anew in canonical form in order to become valid, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 1127, §2.

 

[giagustine]

As you may see, I’m not your average Catholic. I’m frustrated with the cafateria Catholics that do not know their own beliefs. My wifes family can run circles around most Bible Only Protestants. Catholics are like Scott Hahn says “like picking off ducks in a [pond?]”.

There are some “laws” that stay the same no matter what. This should not be confusing if you know your stuff.

---

for me later
Just found a new book on EWTN to buy. “From Scandal to Hope” by Father Benedict Groeschel

Was this for me then? If so, you are right — I don’t really “know my stuff” well yet. We are recent converts to Catholicism. I was just trying to offer our experiences in case they might help you in your quest for the answer. Peace to you.

 

[mdstanzel]

Well first off I dont know who you are calling a cafeteria Catholic…I do know my faith…do I know every little bit of Canon Law in regards to RCIA and sterilization…nope
that is why we have canon lawyers and Priests who can guide you…
If it is not confusing as you state then what is your answer? You seem to imply that you already know it (the answer).

First, if I thought that this site was plagued with cafateria catholics that do not want to learn their faith, I would not have bothered to post here. You are one of the reasons I’ve posted here. I’ve seen your other posts on different threads. So please do not misunderstand my seemingly strong comments without being able to feel my pain and enthusiasm in person. I am frequently accused of being sounding like a teacher. I have a teaching background. But sometimes points have to be made to convey a message with clarity of the problem. etc.

So PLEASE don’t be offended.

 

[Karin]

First, if I thought that this site was plagued with cafateria catholics that do not want to learn their faith, I would not have bothered to post here. You are one of the reasons I’ve posted here. I’ve seen your other posts on different threads. So please do not misunderstand my seemingly strong comments without being able to feel my pain and enthusiasm in person. I am frequently accused of being sounding like a teacher. I have a teaching background. But sometimes points have to be made to convey a message with clarity of the problem. etc.

So PLEASE don’t be offended.

":

mdstanzelThat wasn’t meant for you.

Ah…ok then I aplogize for the tone in my post…

Please note that I was not offended…and I apologize for my tone in my post to you.

 

[Karin]

First, if I thought that this site was plagued with cafateria catholics that do not want to learn their faith, I would not have bothered to post here.

Ok fair enough

You are one of the reasons I’ve posted here. I’ve seen your other posts on different threads.

Thank you (stated humbly)…this is a great compliment!

So please do not misunderstand my seemingly strong comments without being able to feel my pain and enthusiasm in person.

I did not mean to take them the wrong way…I just wanted to let you know that we as “lay people” really are not the best people to advise you at all times…especially with something like this. I do understand your pain and enthusiasm…

I am frequently accused of being sounding like a teacher. I have a teaching background.

that is ok…as long as you dont give me detention

But sometimes points have to be made to convey a message with clarity of the problem. etc.

understood

So PLEASE don’t be offended.

Rest assured I am not

 

[Mom_of_5]

Several years ago there was a small book in the church library talking about this subject. It said that if you have a tubal ligation and confess this to your priest, being truly repentant, this is frogiven. So really no different than any other mortal sin. You can’t keep beating yourself or your wife up over the past. Repent and look to a beautiful Catholic future. I am not a “cafeteria” Catholic, just one who believes that God is a loving, forgiving God.

Love and peace,
Mom of 5

 

[rwoehmke]

Permanant impotence is an impediment whereas infertility(an in ability to conceive) whether from natural causes or a previous tubal or vasectomy is not. I am assuming you are intelligent enough to know the difference between impotence and fertility.

 

[mdstanzel]

Hope this is not a violation, but I found this on a website.

bcc.rcav.org

The B.C. Catholic welcomes questions on faith & morals and will attempt to find answers from clergy within the Archdiocese of Vancouver. For more questions and answers click here.
To ask a question on faith & morals click here.

Best to reverse ligation
The B.C. Catholic welcomes questions on faith and morals and will attempt to find answers from experts within the Archdiocese of Vancouver.

Question: To have a valid Catholic marriage, do I need to have a tubal ligation done during a previous non-Catholic marriage reversed?

Answer: By a tubal ligation a woman becomes sterile; sterility does not, per se, invalidate a marriage (canons 1084 n. 3). However, if you perform this process with the sole intention of rejecting procreation, then you contract an invalid marriage.

There are other serious implications which can also invalidate your marriage. For example, if you conceal your inability to conceive from your spouse, and he expects to have children with you, then you would be committing moral fraud.

God does not allow us to violate the integrity of our bodies by mutilation. Having this surgical intervention performed risks depriving your future husband of children. Voluntarily keeping the tubal ligation presumes you want to prevent conception from occurring.

My advice is to reverse the process as soon as possible before getting married, in order to avoid serious consequences.

• Msgr. Pedro Lopez-Gallo

 

[netmilsmom]

You might look into adoption.
That is open to Life

 

[1ke]

Well, to complicate this more, my wife for her own trust issues had a tubal ligation. I was not really supportive of it (still Catholic minded on this subject) but she did it anyway. Can our marriage be con-validated?

Yes. Her tubal ligation is not an impediment to entering the church or to convalidating your marriage.

 

[mdstanzel]

We have thought about adoption before. Personally, I would love to have more children. She has a story of her own journey. But she feels awful now and I’m trying to help her feel better about it and at the same time avoid leading her to my own wishes, to reverse the procedure. I love her very much, but I do wish we could have more children. But thank God she has decided to “Come Home to Rome”.

I’d love to share this story in full one day. I’ve started to write about it and I’m considering a blog to start. It involves my spiritual journey to the seminary for the priesthood and now possibly a vocation to the diaconate. The hearache is way too deep to go into. I believe that God meant for me to be a priest, but I chose my wife for reasons that are too detailed to go into. In my coming home I thought it might be both and that really confused me. I wondered if I should go to the East, but discovered that she’s not comfortable with that move. That is a long story in itself. I was very diciplined but the spirit seemed to move me to do what I did. Now my 12 year old fantacizes about becoming a Franciscan Friar (runs in the family). That would really warm our hearts and help me feel much better about my move. I’ve been fearing that now God has me back, he might take my family to get me back. I realize that sounds crazy, but if you lived my life you’d understand that God has acted miricles in my life in ways that blow your mind when you see them. My wife has seen it twice now and is beginning to understand how my marrying her was another miriculous even in my life because I was truly headed for priesthood. [long story]

I’m torn about writing about our experiences and returning to my daily prayer life, including silence, adoration, rosary, scripture study, divine office and mass (liturgy of the word and liturgy of the eucharist). It’s very difficult to get reoriented with 3 children and a wife. Families require time. But we’re picking up the pace by slowing down Franciscan style.