Tubal Ligation

[limerick]

There’s more to it than cervical mucous. In fact many illness are diagnosed with the help of the charting. You should probably do more research. NFP also is used with success to conceive because all those indicators are useful in diagnosis because they show the whole picture of what is going on with the woman at any given time in the cycle. The pill is a one size fits all treatment to a very specific problem. More indepth studies are needed to look at each specific hormonal deficiency. Why do think a woman could be treated with pill after pill and not find the solution?

None of which changes the fact that the marital relationship is damaged by direct willfull sterilization. It can never return to the full meaning of communion that it was before the procedure. Its not the right option for catholics who respect the sacramental meaning of their lives and their bodies.

Yes, yes, and I’ve done all the research I want to do on NFP. I am not speaking about conception here; my focus is on what NFP will not do, such as diagnose cancer or PCOS, for instance. On their website, Brigham and Women’s Hospital lists ten different diagnostic tests to determine the nature of reproductive problems: they do not list NFP as one of them. Please list illnesses or diseases that are known to have been diagnosed through charting.

You say the pill is “a one size fits all treatment to a very specific problem.” If the pill is a one trick pony, which trick does it uniquely address: altering fertility or diagnosing fertility problems?

Some marital relationships may be damaged by sterilization. On the other hand, some marriages thrive. It is not the right choice for Catholics as you describe them here; but not all Catholics live as you describe them here, and not all couples are Catholics.

Limerick

 

[agapewolf]

Yes, yes, and I’ve done all the research I want to do on NFP. I am not speaking about conception here; my focus is on what NFP will not do, such as diagnose cancer or PCOS, for instance. On their website, Brigham and Women’s Hospital lists ten different diagnostic tests to determine the nature of reproductive problems: they do not list NFP as one of them. Please list illnesses or diseases that are known to have been diagnosed through charting.

You say the pill is “a one size fits all treatment to a very specific problem.” If the pill is a one trick pony, which trick does it uniquely address: altering fertility or diagnosing fertility problems?

Some marital relationships may be damaged by sterilization. On the other hand, some marriages thrive. It is not the right choice for Catholics as you describe them here; but not all Catholics live as you describe them here, and not all couples are Catholics.

Limerick

You apparently have not done any good research on NFP and need to do more. You are grossly misinformed.

I can give you 4 probs that my charting found that I would otherwise not have found.
Most OB/GYN’s don’t even know that there is symptoms of ovulation…there is no way they are going to list NFP as something useful. If you go to OMSOUL.com and talk to any of those physiciains, they will give you a different story.

Charting DID indicate I had PCOS. Charting also showed I was having issues that could have been 1 of three things (Cancer, something else, or low progesterone). Charting diagnosed that I had a cervical aversion. Charting helped me realize that I was not depressed and needing medication, but that I was having low progesterone. Many Many more things can be seen from charting.

Marriages in now way thrive from sterilization. It may be perceived that way, but there are many other serious consequences that might not be seen. THis is objective truth.

 

[Truly_Beloved]

Please list illnesses or diseases that are known to have been diagnosed through charting.

I have one, through personal experience:

Infertility due to Luteal Phase Defect – The time between ovulation and menstruation being too short, therefore hindering implantation.



Ooooh, I have another one, too!

Thyroid irregularities can be diagnosed with the help of charting waking temperatures (i.e., low basal body temps).

So, along with agape’s PCOS, looks like we’ve got 3 specific illnesses/diseases already. I kinda like this game.

 

[agapewolf]

I have one, through personal experience:

Infertility due to Luteal Phase Defect – The time between ovulation and menstruation being too short, therefore hindering implantation.



Ooooh, I have another one, too!

Thyroid irregularities can be diagnosed with the help of charting waking temperatures (i.e., low basal body temps).

So, along with agape’s PCOS, looks like we’ve got 3 specific illnesses/diseases already. I kinda like this game.

Actually, I had 4 different ones up there.

and thats right!!! diagnosing phase times could also indicate progesterone and other issues, that sometimes can be helped by different vitamins

 

[Seatuck]

Yes, yes, and I’ve done all the research I want to do on NFP. I am not speaking about conception here; my focus is on what NFP will not do, such as diagnose cancer or PCOS, for instance. On their website, Brigham and Women’s Hospital lists ten different diagnostic tests to determine the nature of reproductive problems: they do not list NFP as one of them. Please list illnesses or diseases that are known to have been diagnosed through charting.

You say the pill is “a one size fits all treatment to a very specific problem.” If the pill is a one trick pony, which trick does it uniquely address: altering fertility or diagnosing fertility problems?

Some marital relationships may be damaged by sterilization. On the other hand, some marriages thrive. It is not the right choice for Catholics as you describe them here; but not all Catholics live as you describe them here, and not all couples are Catholics.

Limerick

You have missed a bit during your research. Many "NFP Only "doctors or “Open to Life” doctors as well as Naturopathic doctors do indeed use the charts to assist with diagnosis.The charts have pointed to several diseases including cancers and PCOS. They will order other scientific tests as well to confirm but the charts are very often very solid signs to a particular issue. The pill is not a diagnostic. It is a treatment. Unfortunately many in our society see our fertility not as the normal thing it is but as a disease that needs a medicine or a treatment. The pill doesn’t cure anything but it does mask symptoms or derail them for a time.A lot of women who take the pill for regulating their cycles rebound soon after the pill is stopped. So sad. All marriages are damaged by sterilization. The spouses may not realize it but they are. Both the meaning associated with the marital embrace is damaged and our souls are damaged which is obviously the most serious damage from the catholic perspective.

 

[Therese3]

Hi, my husband and I have had the what do we do now thing going for a while. We don’t have a health problem involved but we do have 4 kids in 7 years. I found a web site that sells fertility monitors, they are made for getting pregnant but they let you know 6 to 7 days in advance if you are going to ovulate. It can also tell you when you have ovulated so you don’t have to abstain for the rest of your cycle. I have used NFP and I would still recommend it for people who have regular cycles but for me this is working way better!!!
It is called Ova Cue and this is the web page I bought mine from.

early-pregnancy-tests.com/ovacue.html?gclid=CN2_tbXLo5kCFRxNagodL1ZUqA

This is the original web site I found it on.

zetek.net/

I hope this helps you, it is well worth the price.

 

[rolltidefan]

You have missed a bit during your research. Many "NFP Only "doctors or “Open to Life” doctors as well as Naturopathic doctors do indeed use the charts to assist with diagnosis.The charts have pointed to several diseases including cancers and PCOS. They will order other scientific tests as well to confirm but the charts are very often very solid signs to a particular issue. The pill is not a diagnostic. It is a treatment. Unfortunately many in our society see our fertility not as the normal thing it is but as a disease that needs a medicine or a treatment. The pill doesn’t cure anything but it does mask symptoms or derail them for a time.A lot of women who take the pill for regulating their cycles rebound soon after the pill is stopped. So sad. All marriages are damaged by sterilization. The spouses may not realize it but they are. Both the meaning associated with the marital embrace is damaged and our souls are damaged which is obviously the most serious damage from the catholic perspective.

Gosh what judgement. Most everybody here knows I have a tubal. If you want to know why, I have stated in other threads and don’t want to post so long on why yet again. I can say for me and my husband, one of the best things we ever did was this, not only for my health, but also for our intimacy. I was so worried of becoming pregnant and dying that I couldn’t focus on my husband, like I think spouses should and it was hard to be intimate. Anyway, I think it is very judgemental for anyone to say that just because you use BC or tubal or etc. that is taking away from intimacy. This just may be my observance to some on here, but it is almost as if the husband/wife have nothing to be happy about as a couple, other than coming together and procreating. I mean after you go through menopause or say if you can’t have children do people of the Catholic belief feel like their lives are over as a couple?? I am asking that in all honesty. As I said, I may be naive to think this, but it sure is discussed a lot on here and it almost to an outsider seems this to be the case. Anyway, still think there is a lot of judgement, especially to say a soul is damaged. Of course thank God at the end it was from a Catholic perspective. Don’t mean to sound harsh, but very upsetting to read such remarks as that when some don’t have choices on what they do, regardless of what you all say about NFP. I personally have worked for many OB/GYN and other doctors and yes the majority are Catholic and they don’t even support this. Of course, anybody can eventually find somebody that will say or do what you want them to and this is especially true in the medical field. I think NFP is great for ones that can use it appropriately, but I agree with Limerick…it sure wasn’t worth death to me or to leave my husband a widower and my children I have motherless. I also think that when you have multiple doctors telling you of a danger of more pregnancies and you just continue to take a chance…that is very irresponsible behavior to you and mostly to your family. Anyway, just my 2 cents and I know I am about to catch heck for these statements.

 

[Seatuck]

Gosh what judgement. Most everybody here knows I have a tubal. If you want to know why, I have stated in other threads and don’t want to post so long on why yet again. I can say for me and my husband, one of the best things we ever did was this, not only for my health, but also for our intimacy. I was so worried of becoming pregnant and dying that I couldn’t focus on my husband, like I think spouses should and it was hard to be intimate. Anyway, I think it is very judgemental for anyone to say that just because you use BC or tubal or etc. that is taking away from intimacy. This just may be my observance to some on here, but it is almost as if the husband/wife have nothing to be happy about as a couple, other than coming together and procreating. I mean after you go through menopause or say if you can’t have children do people of the Catholic belief feel like their lives are over as a couple?? I am asking that in all honesty. As I said, I may be naive to think this, but it sure is discussed a lot on here and it almost to an outsider seems this to be the case. Anyway, still think there is a lot of judgement, especially to say a soul is damaged. Of course thank God at the end it was from a Catholic perspective. Don’t mean to sound harsh, but very upsetting to read such remarks as that when some don’t have choices on what they do, regardless of what you all say about NFP. I personally have worked for many OB/GYN and other doctors and yes the majority are Catholic and they don’t even support this. Of course, anybody can eventually find somebody that will say or do what you want them to and this is especially true in the medical field. I think NFP is great for ones that can use it appropriately, but I agree with Limerick…it sure wasn’t worth death to me or to leave my husband a widower and my children I have motherless. I also think that when you have multiple doctors telling you of a danger of more pregnancies and you just continue to take a chance…that is very irresponsible behavior to you and mostly to your family. Anyway, just my 2 cents and I know I am about to catch heck for these statements.

All I can tell you to do is study Theology of the Body or Christopher Wests stuff or any of the other writers who teach about the nuptial meaning of the marital embrace in marriage and it’s relationship to the eucharist. Marital intimacy is much more than intercourse which is why I didn’t use that word in my thread. I spoke about the theological meaning of the marital act which you obviously have not had the opportunity to study. In the Catholic world there is a eucharistic meaning to the marital embrace. Marriage is a reflection of the trinity and of God’s fruitful relationship with his church. Sterilization as well as contraception willfully remove part of that meaning .You have to understand that for catholics we see the marital embrace as communion and the renewal of vows. We don’t want to willfully hold anything back(including contraception or sterilization) or it damages those gifts and makes them less like the eucharistic gift.
Here’s a couple of internet resources.
crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/374/Basic_Theology_of_Marriage___Christopher_West.html

catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0055.html

usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/cathteach.shtml

 

[agapewolf]

There is NO judgement in stating a fact about something that is harmful.

If you are drinking poison, calling it poison is not judging the person who is drinking it. It is stating a fact.

Contraception IS SERIOUSLY very spiritual harmful. this is not condemning anyone here. That is a hard and closed fact. No one is saying here that anyone is going to hell for anything. That would be judgement. Stating what is morally true is not judging anyone.

People think that it brought them closer, but honestly it has destroyed other things they are not aware of. It is very irresponsible to pose a spiritual danger to yourself and your spouse …THAT is the risky part. Using NFP carefully and cautiously is not just “taking a chance”. Taking a chance is when one is using NFP and they are observing symptoms that say the woman is fertile and go for it anyway. THAT is taking a chance.

And the doctors that are referred to here that don’t “Recommend” NFP don’t even know that fertility has symptoms. Go ahead…ask them. THey will tell you you have a yeast infection.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I mean after you go through menopause or say if you can’t have children do people of the Catholic belief feel like their lives are over as a couple??

No. That isn’t it at all. Those couples are not acting in contradiction to God’s will and His plan for them by directly interfering with their fertility.

NFP is moral because it works with God’s plan for fertility.

Those who become infertile due to illness or age are not causing it by mutilating a healthy body part. Their life as a couple is not over.

I sometimes wonder what it says about people that they announce that for serious reasons they can’t even give up sexual relations for a time to save the wife’s life. Fertility falls off markedly for most women in their 30s. If the husband was paralyzed in an accident would the wife leave him because “their life as a couple is over?” When we vow to take each other in sickness and health till death do us part, do we mean “except when your fertility conflicts with my needs?”

In this day and age of ovulation predictor kits people can’t claim they don’t know when they’re fertile. I also have known people who were told never to have more children. And they went on to have more just fine.

It’s one thing to be afraid of dying. It’s another thing to go on a Catholic message board and undermine Catholic teaching just because of what fear makes you do in your life.

And I did use NFP. And it does work. I used the sympto-thermal method. Very effective. But it requires attention to detail. And cooperation. Every time I conceived a baby I KNEW there was a chance that day. You can’t say you’re surprised.

As with all sin, God always forgives, people sometimes. Nature… never.

 

[Seatuck]

Here’s the link to Theology of The Body.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM

I must admit I needed a bit more help to understand it so I’d recommend one of the studies for it such as by Christopher West. The earlier articles I posted go into it in a very general way. His other books/tapes etc go deeper.

christopherwest.com/resources.asp

 

[kage_ar]

…it sure wasn’t worth death to me or to leave my husband a widower and my children I have motherless. I also think that when you have multiple doctors telling you of a danger of more pregnancies and you just continue to take a chance…that is very irresponsible behavior to you and mostly to your family. .

Mark chapter 8 (bold mine). Eternal life is more important than this life. The responsible thing is to care for our eternal souls.

"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 35* For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? 37 For what can a man give in return for his life? "

 

[SJG1759]

Hi savrx,

Man, what a difficult situation! Where to begin?

Well, first, be as gentle you can with your wife. She’s undoubtedly terrified at the idea of leaving behind you and your four little ones. Imagine all that she stands to miss - first days of school, ball games, recitals, birthdays, first dates, graduations, weddings. And she knows that these occasions will always be bittersweet for you and the kids if she’s can’t enjoy them with you. Additionally, if you have daughters, your wife is probably worried that without her, they might not have a good female role model. And even the best auntie or godmother or grandmother isn’t the same as your own mom. No wonder she’s considering something so drastic!

Second, you don’t say if she’s gotten a second opinion. If she hasn’t, get one! In addition to prayers and spiritual advice, she needs some medical advice too. I can’t speak for anyone else on this board, but I definitely did not go to medical school. (And even if I had, it seems imprudent to diagnose over the internet.)

I’ll pray for your family at Mass today.

 

[rick43235]

Contraception IS SERIOUSLY very spiritual harmful…That is a hard and closed fact.

No, it is simply your belief. The fact that you believe it does not make it “a hard and closed fact.”

 

[agapewolf]

No, it is simply your belief. The fact that you believe it does not make it “a hard and closed fact.”

No, it is what the Church teaches, with the authority coming from Christ. This isn’t my “opinion”. That is what makes it a “hard and closed fact”

 

[rick43235]

No, it is what the Church teaches, with the authority coming from Christ. This isn’t my “opinion”. That is what makes it a “hard and closed fact”

You believe church teachings and you believe that the church gets it’s authority from Christ. I understand and I respect your beliefs. Nevertheless, your belief in these things does not make them facts.

 

[agapewolf]

You believe church teachings and you believe that the church gets it’s authority from Christ. I understand and I respect your beliefs. Nevertheless, your belief in these things does not make them facts.

Again, this has nothing to do with my belief. You could believe that poison isn’t poison all you want, but that doesn’t make what you believe any more true.

Facts are facts. The fact is that if you collect ALL the data, one will see that what I am saying is proven true over and over. and that means ALL the data.

The truth is the truth. Its not my belief that makes it so, as you said, but it is what is.

 

[rolltidefan]

Seatuck…thanks for the websites you posted. I think I have looked over some in the past, but I do appreciate you answering my questions.

I agree with rick43235. I can find any statistics or church documents and can take every verse in the bible to mean what I want it to mean and to apply to me. Thus the reason we have so many religions and ALL of them have taken verses or rules to apply to them specifically. As I said before, I can look long enough for statistics and eventually I am going to find one that supports me. I still think it is ludacris to believe that just because someone has “mutilated” their body as you all say, hurts your marriage, I have been on and off the pill for years, used NFP ( I actually can tell you that I am ovulating as we speak!!) and I have never felt better or worse in my marriage, closer or further from my husband during either. In fact NFP kept me on edge and I couldn’t even “give myself” to my husband fully. So I would say it works opposite for me. But anyway, I mutilated my body and it was the best decision ever. They actually wanted me to have a complete hysterectomy to ensure no more kids, because of my liver condition, would that have made it any less of a sin to have done that?? Because my uterus is fine and I would have only had it removed to ensure not getting pregnant. In fact I have a time with cyst on my ovaries since being off birth control pills. Just had to be emergently admitted to the hospital 3 weeks ago because a hugh cyst on my right ovary. They ended up having to take my whole right tube and ovary because it was strangulated and bleeding into my abdomen which was causing severe pain. So I guess technically now I have half a tubal!! lol Anyway, just funny to me that having a tubal is mutilating your body but having 6 and 7 c-sections are not mutilation!!! I have had 2, yes they do just that, mutilate your body and it is very unsafe, especially when you are dealing with a thin uterus. Again, I love the 2 kids that I have and I believe God has blessed me with that he wants me to have, if he had wanted me to have more, then I guess he would not have made me with a liver disorder that is very dangerous. I count my children miracles from God, because if I had known about this liver condition before I had them, then I would have never even had them, but after finding out about it, it would be very irresponsible on my part to continue mutilating my body.

Also, I would like to ask, my husband actually signed the papers for me to have a tubal, just like he signed 3 weeks ago (because I was on pain medication and couldn’t) to have my tube and ovary removed…so how can it be just the wife’s sin if the husband has sex with her after having this procedure done and he is excempt because it was not his choice?? I know there are probably some that make this decision alone, but it sure wasn’t a decision I made by myself without lots of prayer and alot of thinking on do I have a hysterctomy or a tubal. Does the husband support the wife the day of surgery?? Does he show up to the hospital?? I got to thinking about this and was really wondering. I know for me, I am in a marriage and it is not one sided on decisions such as that.

 

[Seatuck]

Seatuck…thanks for the websites you posted. I think I have looked over some in the past, but I do appreciate you answering my questions.

I agree with rick43235. I can find any statistics or church documents and can take every verse in the bible to mean what I want it to mean and to apply to me. Thus the reason we have so many religions and ALL of them have taken verses or rules to apply to them specifically. As I said before, I can look long enough for statistics and eventually I am going to find one that supports me. I still think it is ludacris to believe that just because someone has “mutilated” their body as you all say, hurts your marriage, I have been on and off the pill for years, used NFP ( I actually can tell you that I am ovulating as we speak!!) and I have never felt better or worse in my marriage, closer or further from my husband during either. In fact NFP kept me on edge and I couldn’t even “give myself” to my husband fully. So I would say it works opposite for me. But anyway, I mutilated my body and it was the best decision ever. They actually wanted me to have a complete hysterectomy to ensure no more kids, because of my liver condition, would that have made it any less of a sin to have done that?? Because my uterus is fine and I would have only had it removed to ensure not getting pregnant. In fact I have a time with cyst on my ovaries since being off birth control pills. Just had to be emergently admitted to the hospital 3 weeks ago because a hugh cyst on my right ovary. They ended up having to take my whole right tube and ovary because it was strangulated and bleeding into my abdomen which was causing severe pain. So I guess technically now I have half a tubal!! lol Anyway, just funny to me that having a tubal is mutilating your body but having 6 and 7 c-sections are not mutilation!!! I have had 2, yes they do just that, mutilate your body and it is very unsafe, especially when you are dealing with a thin uterus. Again, I love the 2 kids that I have and I believe God has blessed me with that he wants me to have, if he had wanted me to have more, then I guess he would not have made me with a liver disorder that is very dangerous. I count my children miracles from God, because if I had known about this liver condition before I had them, then I would have never even had them, but after finding out about it, it would be very irresponsible on my part to continue mutilating my body.

Also, I would like to ask, my husband actually signed the papers for me to have a tubal, just like he signed 3 weeks ago (because I was on pain medication and couldn’t) to have my tube and ovary removed…so how can it be just the wife’s sin if the husband has sex with her after having this procedure done and he is excempt because it was not his choice?? I know there are probably some that make this decision alone, but it sure wasn’t a decision I made by myself without lots of prayer and alot of thinking on do I have a hysterctomy or a tubal. Does the husband support the wife the day of surgery?? Does he show up to the hospital?? I got to thinking about this and was really wondering. I know for me, I am in a marriage and it is not one sided on decisions such as that.

Just so you know ,Indirect sterilizations are permitted under natural moral law. That is reproductive organs that are diseased and causing illness are permitted to be removed and are not considered immoral. This is not the same as the decision to ligate healthy fallopian tubes in order to prevent conception. That is never allowed.

 

[rolltidefan]

Yeah that is what I understood, but my uterus was not diseased. I have had trouble with cyst on the ovaries since coming off birth control, but that is also not the reason for the tubal. I had the tubal because they wanted to ensure no pregnancy whatsoever because of a liver condition called hemangioma. I had tons of trouble with pregnancy with the two and especially the last one which we at the time didn’t realize what it was. Being prengant and also any birth control was causing it to grow and it would bleed and could have caused me to hemorrhage to death or even the baby die. So I got three opinions (two from actual Catholic OB/GYNS) which we have a lot of in my area. Two were local consults and then the other was at UAB in Birmingham. They ALL said I could not take a chance of pregnancy. They wanted me to have a complete hysterectomy on a healthy uterus. I then also knew that if they took my ovaries, then I could not go on hormone replacement because of the liver. So, I guess I would have been extremely hard to live with!!! lol I opted to have a tubal which no is not 100%, but as they said was better than any other options. Yes, I could have chosen to live with my husband and not had relations, but I also don’t find that this is bibical at all and no a marriage is not all about sex, but it sure is nice and a nice addition to a good healthy marraige. I guess I had come to the conclusion that if after my tubes had been burned, snipped, clipped twice and God still blessed me with a child, then I guess he would take care of me, as he did with my previous two pregnancies. But I don’t believe in testing God and I believe he gives us sense and good doctors to help us with our care here on earth. No it was not an easy decision, not because I wanted more children because I always wanted just 2. But just health wise to learn that you have this problem with your body and you don’t know what to do to make it better. I mean I still even have to watch anything I take, Tylenol and etc. any drugs that could affect the liver. Of course I don’t drink at all. And I still have to undergo a CT scan every year to make sure it is not growing. If it were to grow, then I will have to undergo having that part of the liver removed which is a very dangerous surgery. So at this point, I am working on just keeping myself healthy in whatever way I can. I actually still use NFP in a way. With a tubal, you still ovulate, and I am very easy to read on those days, so I even now don’t take a chance, so I guess you could say I practice NFP and have a tubal!!! lol But anyway, it is just hard to come here and be judged for something that I feel was no other choice. Now, there are some here that have had healthy lives and have never been through anything health wise at all that want to be all uppty up and tell us that have these problems what to do. That is about like me trying to tell someone that is going through cancer treatment, my opinion of it. Until you have walked in my shoes, I think I wouldn’t say anything to people about what decisions and choices you would make. Looks a lot different when that fear is staring you in the face.