Tubal Ligation

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Your half a tubal was fine. That was the medical intervention to deal with an unhealthy body part.

Ceasearians are not mutilation, in that their express purpose is not to deform the body or alter an organ or remove a healthy organ just for the sake of doing so. (Like sawing off your hand, just because it’s there would be mutilation.)

A Ceasearian falls under the principle of “double effect.” That means the C-section is done as the lesser of two evils to assist in childbirth because the usual method of delivering a baby is not possible for some reason. The damage caused to the body is not the primary goal of the C-section. It’s to avert a more serious threat to life or limb. Double effect is also the moral underpinning allowing the removal of a cancerous uterus or ovaries. In that case, sterilization is an unavoidable byproduct of a procedure to remove an unhealthy tumor, not the primary purpose.

Intention matters a lot in life. To us and to God. He isn’t fooled. How you FEEL about an action doesn’t determine it’s rightness or wrongness. A woman who aborts who feels relief doesn’t make the killing of her child moral. A man who cheats on his wife because it FEELS right to be with another woman doesn’t make the action moral. The SS felt putting Jews in ovens was right. The world disagreed. God too.

And lets be real… any surgery carries risks. People have died from anaesthesia for having face lifts and liposuction. Infection or other complications could set in. As a husband, I would feel very guilty if something happened to my wife while she was in the hospital having her healthy tubes tied.

One Bible verse that isn’t open to interpretation goes to the effect of “who among us by our own effort can add one day to our lives.” God really is in charge. If it’s your time to go, it’s your time to go. We have a false sense of autonomy and control in our lives. If it’s your time to go, a plane will fall out of the sky onto your house while you’re inside. If it’s not your time to go, no matter how many geese fly into your jet engine, the pilot will be able to land it on the water and you’ll go home safely.

All of morality centers around Christ’s words, “Not my will, but Thine be done.”

By the way, no one here knows anyone else’s medical histories. Just what they choose to share. So don’t ever presume others here haven’t faced horrible choices also.
 
rolltidefan said:
Yeah that is what I understood, but my uterus was not diseased. I have had trouble with cyst on the ovaries since coming off birth control, but that is also not the reason for the tubal. I had the tubal because they wanted to ensure no pregnancy whatsoever because of a liver condition called hemangioma. I had tons of trouble with pregnancy with the two and especially the last one which we at the time didn’t realize what it was. Being prengant and also any birth control was causing it to grow and it would bleed and could have caused me to hemorrhage to death or even the baby die. So I got three opinions (two from actual Catholic OB/GYNS) which we have a lot of in my area. Two were local consults and then the other was at UAB in Birmingham. They ALL said I could not take a chance of pregnancy. They wanted me to have a complete hysterectomy on a healthy uterus. I then also knew that if they took my ovaries, then I could not go on hormone replacement because of the liver. So, I guess I would have been extremely hard to live with!!! lol I opted to have a tubal which no is not 100%, but as they said was better than any other options. Yes, I could have chosen to live with my husband and not had relations, but I also don’t find that this is bibical at all and no a marriage is not all about sex, but it sure is nice and a nice addition to a good healthy marraige. I guess I had come to the conclusion that if after my tubes had been burned, snipped, clipped twice and God still blessed me with a child, then I guess he would take care of me, as he did with my previous two pregnancies. But I don’t believe in testing God and I believe he gives us sense and good doctors to help us with our care here on earth. No it was not an easy decision, not because I wanted more children because I always wanted just 2. But just health wise to learn that you have this problem with your body and you don’t know what to do to make it better. I mean I still even have to watch anything I take, Tylenol and etc. any drugs that could affect the liver. Of course I don’t drink at all. And I still have to undergo a CT scan every year to make sure it is not growing. If it were to grow, then I will have to undergo having that part of the liver removed which is a very dangerous surgery. So at this point, I am working on just keeping myself healthy in whatever way I can. I actually still use NFP in a way. With a tubal, you still ovulate, and I am very easy to read on those days, so I even now don’t take a chance, so I guess you could say I practice NFP and have a tubal!!! lol But anyway, it is just hard to come here and be judged for something that I feel was no other choice. Now, there are some here that have had healthy lives and have never been through anything health wise at all that want to be all uppty up and tell us that have these problems what to do. That is about like me trying to tell someone that is going through cancer treatment, my opinion of it. Until you have walked in my shoes, I think I wouldn’t say anything to people about what decisions and choices you would make. Looks a lot different when that fear is staring you in the face.
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  1. Again, no one is judging you. NO ONE has said you are going to hell.
  2. Testing God is by going against his teaching,. You aren’t testing God when you follow His commands.
  3. No one has every judged you for the reasons you need to avoid pregnancy. No one has been “uppity” about this situation, except stating the Catholic moral teachings and stating that it is harmful to not follow them. .
 
rolltidefan said:
Also, I would like to ask, my husband actually signed the papers for me to have a tubal, just like he signed 3 weeks ago (because I was on pain medication and couldn’t) to have my tube and ovary removed…so how can it be just the wife’s sin if the husband has sex with her after having this procedure done and he is excempt because it was not his choice?? I know there are probably some that make this decision alone, but it sure wasn’t a decision I made by myself without lots of prayer and alot of thinking on do I have a hysterctomy or a tubal. Does the husband support the wife the day of surgery?? Does he show up to the hospital?? I got to thinking about this and was really wondering. I know for me, I am in a marriage and it is not one sided on decisions such as that.
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The OP seems to be against his wife having a tubal. The idea here is that if she has the tubal, despite him expressing that he is against it, he does not bear personal responsibility for that sin. I would not think there would be anything wrong with him accompanying her to the hospital, though I’m sure some would disagree about that. I hope that clears things up.

MJ
 
rolltidefan said:
Yeah that is what I understood, but my uterus was not diseased. I have had trouble with cyst on the ovaries since coming off birth control, but that is also not the reason for the tubal. I had the tubal because they wanted to ensure no pregnancy whatsoever because of a liver condition called hemangioma. I had tons of trouble with pregnancy with the two and especially the last one which we at the time didn’t realize what it was. Being prengant and also any birth control was causing it to grow and it would bleed and could have caused me to hemorrhage to death or even the baby die. So I got three opinions (two from actual Catholic OB/GYNS) which we have a lot of in my area. Two were local consults and then the other was at UAB in Birmingham. They ALL said I could not take a chance of pregnancy. They wanted me to have a complete hysterectomy on a healthy uterus. I then also knew that if they took my ovaries, then I could not go on hormone replacement because of the liver. So, I guess I would have been extremely hard to live with!!! lol I opted to have a tubal which no is not 100%, but as they said was better than any other options. Yes, I could have chosen to live with my husband and not had relations, but I also don’t find that this is bibical at all and no a marriage is not all about sex, but it sure is nice and a nice addition to a good healthy marraige. I guess I had come to the conclusion that if after my tubes had been burned, snipped, clipped twice and God still blessed me with a child, then I guess he would take care of me, as he did with my previous two pregnancies. But I don’t believe in testing God and I believe he gives us sense and good doctors to help us with our care here on earth. No it was not an easy decision, not because I wanted more children because I always wanted just 2. … I mean I still even have to watch anything I take, Tylenol and etc. any drugs that could affect the liver. Of course I don’t drink at all. And I still have to undergo a CT scan every year to make sure it is not growing. If it were to grow, then I will have to undergo having that part of the liver removed which is a very dangerous surgery. So at this point, I am working on just keeping myself healthy in whatever way I can. I actually still use NFP in a way. With a tubal, you still ovulate, and I am very easy to read on those days, so I even now don’t take a chance, so I guess you could say I practice NFP and have a tubal!!! lol But anyway, it is just hard to come here and be judged for something that I feel was no other choice. Now, there are some here that have had healthy lives and have never been through anything health wise at all that want to be all uppty up and tell us that have these problems what to do. That is about like me trying to tell someone that is going through cancer treatment, my opinion of it. Until you have walked in my shoes, I think I wouldn’t say anything to people about what decisions and choices you would make. Looks a lot different when that fear is staring you in the face.
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This is an area of Catholic teaching that you don’t agree with . That doesn’t make a person states this teaching a judge. It’s just stating the church teaching . There is no uppitiness in stating what the church holds to be true.Catholics may judge actions just not people. Sterilization is biblically wrong as well. Deuteronomy 23 specifically mentions men who crushed thier gonads in order to be sterile. The church has taught that contraception and sterilization are wrong from day one. That is not being judgemental but telling the truth. This is a Catholic message board. Try not feel judged or get defensive everytime you read Catholic moral teaching that you don’t agree with or have acted against at some point in your life. Try instead to learn why this is so. The church has been around for thousands of years and has been the spiritual support for many women in your shoes. Just because you met up with Catholics who are not living their faith or who may have given you different advice because you aren’t a Catholic does not make them right. They will have to answer for this . They may be ignorant , then again maybe they aren’t . I don’t really know.

I will also say this. You don’t know anything about me and I don’t feel obligated to share my health issues with you .It doesn’t matter if I have any or not. I do understand the church teaching and I do feel it is my duty to impart it to a fellow Catholic who started this thread.Catholics need to be warned to not make this decision. I mainly responded to poster who was giving incomplete information I did not respond directly to you to attack or judge.

I think you should be honest with yourself. You made a choice. You could have abstained for a time or practiced very conservative NFP but that is not what you chose. You made the choice that you thought was best with what you knew.I understand that you did not have the catholic moral teaching to have influenced you in your decision so it may not have been a mortal sin for you . Perhaps you are protected by invincible ignorance in that regard since you were not Catholic but I don’t really know what opportunities God gave you to understand this issue in your life.
But our OP does have the access to the church teaching and many women reading this site do. They have a different obligation than you did. Again Catholics need to be warned to not make this mistake. They need to be supported to stand firm in what they have been taught and encouraged to fight against fear and other feelings which block us from making the right decision sometimes. And shame , shame on Catholics who assist them to do otherwise and don’t offer the right kind of information and support.

So I really urge you to deeply study the nuptial meaning of the body in marriage so you can come to understand it.
 
agapewolf said:
You apparently have not done any good research on NFP and need to do more. You are grossly misinformed.
I have done a great deal of research on various forms of NPF, and 30 years ago even tried to employ a couple of them, which resulted in two pregnancies. I do not need to do more; I have all the proof I need as to the efficacy of NPF.

I can give you 4 probs that my charting found that I would otherwise not have found. Most OB/GYN’s don’t even know that there is symptoms of ovulation…there is no way they are going to list NFP as something useful. If you go to OMSOUL.com and talk to any of those physiciains, they will give you a different story.
It is not the duty of every OB/GYN to give patients the “NFP Story” first. If every OB/GYN were Catholic, and your claim about most of them being ignorant of ovulation symptoms were accurate, then this would be alarming indeed. However, not all OB/GYN practitioners are bound by Catholic Church dogma; their priority is not to hustle NPF as the most effective method of birth control: 1) because it is not, and 2) because the rigorous compliance it demands does not appeal to most men and women. OMSOUL, which you recommended, is a site which might be of some use for those who are not saddled with some caveat where their own health would be at risk if another conception took place, or those who put the importance of their own lives beneath that of a developing embryo. It is a Catholic site based in Dayton, Ohio through a Catholic church in that town. It offers information which might be helpful to Catholic men and women, but it does not represent a world view of spirituality, relationships, marriage, conception, birth and family. I clearly understand that this is a Catholic forum and am making a deliberate effort to be inclusive in this post with regard to information offered to Catholic couples; perhaps it may offset the rancor expressed in your statement that, “Most OB/GYN’s don’t even know that there is symptoms of ovulation…there is no way they are going to list NFP as something useful.” Perhaps Catholic women should only make appointments with Catholic doctors on every medical issue. That would certainly reduce the number of women straying from the fold when they encounter medical problems. (Actually, a number of Catholic doctors do not promote their own faith when it comes to caring for their patients - maybe a website that lists Catholic doctors who only offer services which fall within the parameters of Catholic teachings would be helpful. But good luck assembling it.)

Charting DID indicate I had PCOS. How? An indication is not a diagnosis. You specifically said, “There’s more to it than cervical mucous. In fact many illness are diagnosed with the help of the charting.” And, “Charting also showed I was having issues that could have been 1 of three things (Cancer, something else ???], or low progesterone). Charting diagnosed that I had a cervical aversion. Cervical eversion? Charting helped me realize that I was not depressed and needing medication, but that I was having low progesterone. [Please note: low progesterone can be a cause of depression. Perhaps you actually were depressed.] Many Many more things can be seen from charting.” Just to get this straight: charting does not diagnose anything. It may give indicators that the woman’s body is not naturally performing as it should, but medical examination and testing must be done in order to arrive at an accurate diagnosis. NFP is not a divining rod.
Marriages in now way thrive from sterilization. It may be perceived that way, but there are many other serious consequences that might not be seen. What are they? Why would they not be seen? THis is objective truth. As you see it.

Limerick
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*“Sterilization is biblically wrong as well. Deuteronomy 23 specifically mentions men who crushed thier gonads in order to be sterile. The church has taught that contraception and sterilization are wrong from day one.”
*
Then why did Pope Pius IX sit solemnly on his throne in the Sistine Chapel for 20 years listening to “the shrill celestial whine of eunuchs”? What about the eunuchs who long ago made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven? These boys were not all born eunuchs. Most subjected themselves to castration to glorify God.
 
I said “something else” because I couldn’t remember what the third issue could have been. THis does not negate my point. You are still missing the main point that only because of charting were the issues found. And yes, the charting DID diagnose several of the issues

Also, you are asking me to explain things THAT ARE EXPLAINED IN THE NFP books.

Yet you say you’ve studied them. Apparently not, because you are asking some basic questions that are covered if you actually did study them.

My medical issues were found from NFP charts. You are reiterating what I am saying, but trying to argue at the same time. It doesn’t make sense.

Low progesterone did indeed cause symptoms of depression…therefore, we fixed the low progesterone, and wa la…depression fixed. You harping on every detail on what I am saying does not make sense here.

The fact that you don’t know what a cervical aversion is does not negate my point in mentioning it. It was indeed NFP charting that diagnosed the issue. The low progesterone issue had symptoms that could have been other things, as I mentioned. One could have been cancer. I’m not going to continue to discuss specific medical explanations here as it does no good. Go read the book.

Do you undertsand here, that you were wrong. NFP does indeed indicate and show that there can be problems. Study it. You obviously don’t know much about it.

The OMSOUL site IS the NFP-only doctor site. You are so loaded down with so much misinformation its not even funny.

And again, objective truth has nothing to do with my opinion. It is what is. THe church’s teachings handed down from Christ Himself.

The rigourous compliance does not appeal to most men and women? Again you are wrong. All of our NFP-only docs in my city cannot take new patients because they are already overloaded and overworked. People have driven hours to see my doctor, for weekly pregnancy check-ups. People even do charting checks by mail to these docs because of how helpful teh charts are to health issues.

Please…just stop. You don’t know what you are talking about.
 
limerick said:
*“Sterilization is biblically wrong as well. Deuteronomy 23 specifically mentions men who crushed thier gonads in order to be sterile. The church has taught that contraception and sterilization are wrong from day one.”
*
Then why did Pope Pius IX sit solemnly on his throne in the Sistine Chapel for 20 years listening to “the shrill celestial whine of eunuchs”? What about the eunuchs who long ago made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven? These boys were not all born eunuchs. Most subjected themselves to castration to glorify God.
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Your attitude in referring to our past popes is offensive. Please do not use such a tone and disrespect here.
 
stayathomemommy said:
Trust in the Lord. He is odviously talking to you and i am sure your wife as well. the devil is working on her really hard as well. Fear is so powerful and it can blind us to the thruth. Just know that if you were to get pregnant God would be there with you through that.

I have never been that good at NFP and always have said when i have a grave reason is when i will get better at it. maybe take the pressure off of her and commit to chastity for a few months so she can focus on doing NFP and practicing it. Assure her that you will help, set the alarm, have the themometer ready, and the chart on your side so all she has to do is open her mouth and you do the rest. Then interpret the chart together. when my husband helped in the beginning i was much better at it and i didnt feel like all the responcebility was on my sholders.
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maybe he should trust that God sent him two priests to help him save his marriage and his wife’s life.
 
limerick said:
“Sterilization is biblically wrong as well. Deuteronomy 23 specifically mentions men who crushed thier gonads in order to be sterile. The church has taught that contraception and sterilization are wrong from day one.”

Then why did Pope Pius IX sit solemnly on his throne in the Sistine Chapel for 20 years listening to “the shrill celestial whine of eunuchs”? What about the eunuchs who long ago made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven? These boys were not all born eunuchs. Most subjected themselves to castration to glorify God.
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Looks like he turned a blind eye to it. Of course we don’t know exactly what happened.
 
agapewolf said:
I said “something else” because I couldn’t remember what the third issue could have been. THis does not negate my point. You are still missing the main point that only because of charting were the issues found. And yes, the charting DID diagnose several of the issues. Did the charting give you pointers that may have inspired to you go to a doctor to investigate the possibilty of illness or disease? Or did charting spell out the complete medical condition with which you were faced?

Also, you are asking me to explain things THAT ARE EXPLAINED IN THE NFP books. I am asking you to explain in your own words precisely what your experiences have been. No NFP book can speak for you.

Yet you say you’ve studied them. Apparently not, because you are asking some basic questions that are covered if you actually did study them. I did not delve further into NFP because 1) I had a non-compliant partner, and 2) it did not do for me what LoEsterin FE could do.

My medical issues were found from NFP charts. You are reiterating what I am saying, but trying to argue at the same time. It doesn’t make sense. Here is what you wrote: “And yes, the charting DID diagnose several of the issues” and, “Charting helped me realize that I was not depressed and needing medication, but that I was having low progesterone.” The former statement quite clearly claims that a chart is a diagnosis. I read the latter statement this way: “Charting helped me to realize that I was not depressed and did not need medication, but simply that I was having low progesterone.” All I did was clarify your statement. I am not reiterating what you wrote; I clarified it. It appears that you also had some anxiety about needing medication - could that be correct?

Low progesterone did indeed cause symptoms of depression…therefore, we fixed the low progesterone, and wa la…depression fixed. You harping on every detail on what I am saying does not make sense here. Again, details were not clear and could be misinterpreted.

The fact that you don’t know what a cervical aversion is does not negate my point in mentioning it. A “cervical aversion” is a woman’s aversion to (i.e., a repugnance or intense dislike for) a cervix - possibly her own. A “cervical eversion” (which is what I wrote) is where the the glandular tissue within the cervix “opens up” onto the outer part of the cervix.

It was indeed NFP charting that diagnosed the issue. So you were satisfied with the “diagnosis” offered by a chart alone? You did not pursue it further by seeing a medical professional? The low progesterone issue had symptoms that could have been other things, as I mentioned. One could have been cancer. I’m not going to continue to discuss specific medical explanations here as it does no good. That’s fine. Go read the book. Not interested.

Do you undertsand here, that you were wrong. I understand, and believe, nothing of the kind. NFP does indeed indicate and show that there can be problems. A chart is not a diagnosis. Yes, NFP can give one a heads-up; it in no way is a precise indicator of any specific medical condition. Study it. You obviously don’t know much about it. I found it ineffective for me and it’s now nothing more than an academic exercise.

The OMSOUL site IS the NFP-only doctor site. You are so loaded down with so much misinformation its not even funny. On the contrary. OMSOUL is a website offering information on Natural Family Planning, but it is not an NFP-only doctor site; in fact, it is not a doctor site at all. They also provide links to NFP centers across the U.S., pharmacies, teachers, and they offer media and merchandise for sale. Since OMSOUL is not-for-profit, the proceeds must go to the manufacturers and distributors of every bib that says, “I’m a Piece of God’s Love”. Right? They also provide information about sterilization reversal. Now, doesn’t that compound the body mutilation which occurs during sterilization? It is truly o.k. to go back in and meddle with untying fallopian tubes and vas deferens just so there can be more children on this planet? What does the Church say about that? Wouldn’t this come under the heading Two Wrongs Don’t Make A Right?

And again, objective truth has nothing to do with my opinion. I couldn’t agree more. It is what is. THe church’s teachings handed down from Christ Himself.

The rigourous compliance does not appeal to most men and women? Again you are wrong. All of our NFP-only docs in my city cannot take new patients because they are already overloaded and overworked. People have driven hours to see my doctor, for weekly pregnancy check-ups. People even do charting checks by mail to these docs because of how helpful teh charts are to health issues. So you have facts and figures regarding the doctors in your city. I’m glad that they are overburdened with this abundance of patients. It says nothing, however, about compliance figures or success rates of NFP throughout the United States.

Please…just stop. You don’t know what you are talking about. My experiences never lied to me. I investigated NFP and found it was not right for me. This in no way indicates that I don’t know what I’m talking about. And under no circumstances would I let a graph or a chart that I’m making on cervical secretions or body temperature suggest that I have cancer or even an aversion to my own cervix.

Limerick
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limerick:
Under no circumstances? THat makes no sense. If you feel warm, does that not tell you that you could have a fever? Does the temp taking tell you you have a fever? The specific mucous said I had a cervical Eversion. My goodness, you can’t win so you’ll toil over a misspelling. You stated under no circumstances would you let those things suggest you have cancer. well, people do it all the time. From mere small spotting, which, if I was not making observations I would not have seen…could indicate cancer. How sad that you would abandon such a helpful health indicator.

You didn’t even look at the web site. It is an NFP only doc site. Read it

No I don’t have anxiety about needing medication, but I will not “take a pill” to medicate something that doesn’t exist. But yet, my mentality about such things is not is what is at issue, and your need to detract to such a personal suggestion of the sort is proving my point even more.

You are trying to find things and twisting things as though to distract from the points made originally. Stick to the points. I stated very clearly that NFP did in fact point to some issues, and diagnosed others. I’ve made my points, and I will not discuss personal medical issues on here in detail, because there is no need.

You are wrong when talking about reversals. These are repairing the body to the normal state…the way it is supposed to function. This is UNmutilating a body. Please, stop theologizing. It is very obvious you are not grasping the information here.
 
limerick…I can assure you that on here that nothing you say will make it from A to B. I applaud you for the effort though. I mean you will be just like me coming here, for whatever reason, mine is because I just so happened to have married Catholic and NEVER in a million years dreamed that I would stumble up on threads such as this. Of course, I guess we do have to accept that this is a Catholic site…however, on the other hand, it is also open to the public and they have to realize that anybody can post here. You will get all kinds of things though here. Just like me posting earlier about people that have never had a medical condition should just not talk at all because that is like me trying to tell someone how to handle cancer. See they take that and turn it around to mean that I am asking them to state their medical history. Far from what I was meaning, as I don’t care what their medical condition is. However, I am married, one of the reasons for the marriage is for a partner which includes sexual interaction and it is meant to be pleasurable and enjoyed and I don’t think everytime I lay down with my husband and we have sex that involves in me or him having to think of having kids. If that is how God made it, I think he would have made it that everytime we have sex that children would be concieved. If you want to have 10 kids or 1 kid or no kids that is your business. I am just grateful to be part of the protestant religion that does not dictate that part of my life. I see no problems in the rules, but gosh, there are people that do have legitmate reasons to not test God by ignoring doctors that he put on this earth for the betterment of our lives. I agree with one of the posters here…I think Valke2…maybe you all should just be thankful to God for the doctor that might have saved a marriage and a mothers life. I know I am for my own. You know it would actually be interesting to look up on other websites also about NFP…of course I know which ones you all suggest, but of course it is going to fully support your debates, but there also others ones out there that suggest right the opposite. I know NFP can’t be all that wonderful and joyous to the couple, because I sure see alot on here that are griping and complaining about having to use it and also the marriages that are failing because of it. So I guess if it works for the ones it works for, that is grand…but for the ones of us that hated it, I guess we will just have to take that up with the Lord, if what all you here suggest is right.
 
agapewolf said:
Under no circumstances? THat makes no sense. If you feel warm, does that not tell you that you could have a fever? Does the temp taking tell you you have a fever? The specific mucous said I had a cervical Eversion. My goodness, you can’t win so you’ll toil over a misspelling. You stated under no circumstances would you let those things suggest you have cancer. well, people do it all the time. From mere small spotting, which, if I was not making observations I would not have seen…could indicate cancer. How sad that you would abandon such a helpful health indicator.

Warmth does not verify fever. Taking one’s temperature verifies fever. I did not say I would “abandon” any indicator of abnormalcy; I said I would not rely on said “indicator” as a diagnostic tool.

I “toil” over a misspelling because it is critical, particularly where body language, facial expressions and the like are unavailable to posters, that we say what we mean and mean what we say. You said “aversion.” I have an aversion to intellectual laziness.

You didn’t even look at the web site. It is an NFP only doc site. Read it

I certainly did look at this not-for-profit website, else how could I have mentioned that there are other people connected with it who are not doctors, including some who would prefer to make a buck hawking media and merchandise that will benefit no one but themselves?

No I don’t have anxiety about needing medication, but I will not “take a pill” to medicate something that doesn’t exist. But yet, my mentality about such things is not is what is at issue, and your need to detract to such a personal suggestion of the sort is proving my point even more.

If it disturbs you that I “detract to such a personal suggestion” (??), and you feel I am proving your point rather than my own, wouldn’t it instead be to your benefit to capitalize on that?

You are trying to find things and twisting things as though to distract from the points made originally. Stick to the points. I stated very clearly that NFP did in fact point to some issues, and diagnosed others. I’ve made my points, and I will not discuss personal medical issues on here in detail, because there is no need.

I am trying to understand you, and it is not I who has things twisted. If you feel your points have been lost, perhaps you could re-state them in a more comprehensible manner.

Although NFP can point to some potential issues, it cannot diagnose illness or disease. A medical professional can diagnose; a chart with dots on it describing cervical mucus secretions or a graph outlining one’s basal body temp does not have the capacity to diagnose illness or disease.

You are wrong when talking about reversals. These are repairing the body to the normal state…the way it is supposed to function. This is UNmutilating a body. Please, stop theologizing. It is very obvious you are not grasping the information here.

Fertility reversals are not only variably “successful” but they will never return the patient’s reproductive organs to “the normal state”. The way the individual was born is lost when sterilization takes place. There is no such thing as UNmutilating a body, any more than there exists a way to unring a bell. This is not to say that reversals are not generally successful, but the body and the mind have been altered in the process of sterilization and the experience itself precludes a return to a God-given state.

So far as I can see, there has been no “information” offered here, only experiences. Your experiences have shaped your world. They have not shaped mine. I have my own experiences to ponder. And I maintain that it’s best to rely on someone with medical knowledge to give an accurate diagnosis for illness or disease rather than to ascribe diagnostic properties to a bedside chart outlining the stickiness or wateriness of one’s cervical secretions.

Limerick
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you said:
And under no circumstances would I let a graph or a chart that I’m making on cervical secretions or body temperature suggest that I have cancer or even an aversion to my own cervix
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(emphasis mine)

and I still stand by “how sad” because that is what our bodies do. They tell us that something is wrong. I didn’t say you said it would diagnose. I’m simply commenting on what YOU said. You wouldn’t let it “suggest”. well, then. Don’t let a shooting pain down your shin suggest anything either.

Obviously you did not read the site because it is an NFP only doc site. As I said, for the 3rd time.

There has been plenty of information here and you are choosing to ignore it.
 
Birth control is just bad medicine. Many doctors have stopped pushing the pills and the other stuff because it is treating healthy women as if they are unhealthy and dumping chemicals in their body and there is no 30-year study to prove that some NEW miracle contraceptive won’t come back to bite you down the road.

Plus many ABC pills are abortofacient. They have to have a backup mechanism in case the woman misses a dose or it is compromised by antibiotics or something and conception occurs. Who wants to get sued by armies of angry women who conceived children on the pill? (I’ve bounced babies on my knee as their mothers told me what ABC they were using that failed.) Back to the pill… So the uterine lining is made hostile to implantation. So that developing embryo that someone referred to with such hostility will not implant, but will go right into your toilet or something. Buh-bye! Who knows who that little girl or boy would have turned out to be.

We won’t talk about the 3 pages of teeny tiny writing in the magazine ads about all the contraindications that go with the pill and how it can cause stroke, heart attacks, blood clots and all sorts of other issues. My sister is a cardiac nurse and EVERY female patient she’s had under age 45 with a stroke was on the pill.

A good doctor pledges first to do no harm.

Vasectomies are turning out to cause autoimmune issues in men long-term.

I won’t get into the issues hysterectomies and tubals can cause women.

As for NFP, God did NOT create your body so every act of intercourse results in pregnancy. Imagine what the population would be. What He did do was create a situation where the ovum is released and has a 3-day lifespan. Add to that an outside window of 5 days of sperm motility under ideal circumstances and you have 8 days of abstinence a month.

If the couple is making FULL USE of the other 22 or 23 days a month to have intercourse and still isn’t happy with 8 days of abstinence, well, that is a different issue.

Then God gave us nine months of pregnancy and infertility during that time. Raise your hands if you made full use of that time to make your marriage better. Then if you breastfeed… well, you’d be amazed how long you are anovulatory if you don’t give in to bottles and such for the early months.

I know what I’m talking about. I lived it. It can be done. I’m sorry the squeaky wheel gets the attention on this forum. Many women find it is a safe healthy way to live.

Fact is, people just don’t like anyone telling them what to do, not even God Himself.

We didn’t write the rules here. God did. Mocking popes (and eunuch could be a metaphor here, by the way, a kind of giving up one’s sexuality to live a life for Christ… and the bible used an image that culture would have been familiar with… the eunuch who does not partake of his sexuality so he can better serve his master and guard his master’s kingdom.) well, that’s not the way to go here.

The OP wrote in worried about his wife’s soul and her physical health, in a terrible dilemna. It’s sad that some have come on here to pick a fight to justify their own choices and mock the Catholic Church. But I ask, if contraception is such a boon to marriages, why are some of the highest divorce rates in America in the Protestant Bible-belt areas?

You’d think they’d be awash in marital bliss by now.
 
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