Tubal Ligation

[Liberanosamalo]

While we’re talking about wonderful contraceptives, do some research on the old forms that once were considered the best things since sliced bread. Anyone remember how the Dalkon Shield was going to make women throw away their pills? Until the thing started perforating uteruses and causing all sorts of nasty problems.

The early pills had so much estrogen in them that they were linked to cancers in later years and lots of vascular problems.

Remember those little rods that they could implant in your arms to make forgetful women infertile for months at a time? Well, the little buggers didn’t quite live up to the promise and were darn hard to remove, causing scarring and other issues. Plus it became an easy way for some societies to sterilize women against their will.

By the way, the pope on his throne in 1968 predicted that artificial contraception would lead to government abuses and coercion and forced sterilization campaigns, the increase in promiscuity and abortions (the ultimate backup contraception), and a diminishment of the dignity of women. (Much easier for men to use them if they can get away with not getting them pregnant.). He was prophetic.

And one can be used within a marriage too. By a husband who bears none of the physical burdens and side effects of contraception and comes to objectify the wife instead of seeing her and her fertility as a gift to be respected.

That doesn’t build happier marriages.

 

[noclevername]

Yeah that is what I understood, but my uterus was not diseased. I have had trouble with cyst on the ovaries since coming off birth control, but that is also not the reason for the tubal. I had the tubal because they wanted to ensure no pregnancy whatsoever because of a liver condition called hemangioma. I had tons of trouble with pregnancy with the two and especially the last one which we at the time didn’t realize what it was. Being prengant and also any birth control was causing it to grow and it would bleed and could have caused me to hemorrhage to death or even the baby die. So I got three opinions (two from actual Catholic OB/GYNS) which we have a lot of in my area. Two were local consults and then the other was at UAB in Birmingham. They ALL said I could not take a chance of pregnancy. They wanted me to have a complete hysterectomy on a healthy uterus. I then also knew that if they took my ovaries, then I could not go on hormone replacement because of the liver. So, I guess I would have been extremely hard to live with!!! lol I opted to have a tubal which no is not 100%, but as they said was better than any other options. Yes, I could have chosen to live with my husband and not had relations, but I also don’t find that this is bibical at all and no a marriage is not all about sex, but it sure is nice and a nice addition to a good healthy marraige. I guess I had come to the conclusion that if after my tubes had been burned, snipped, clipped twice and God still blessed me with a child, then I guess he would take care of me, as he did with my previous two pregnancies. But I don’t believe in testing God and I believe he gives us sense and good doctors to help us with our care here on earth. No it was not an easy decision, not because I wanted more children because I always wanted just 2. But just health wise to learn that you have this problem with your body and you don’t know what to do to make it better. I mean I still even have to watch anything I take, Tylenol and etc. any drugs that could affect the liver. Of course I don’t drink at all. And I still have to undergo a CT scan every year to make sure it is not growing. If it were to grow, then I will have to undergo having that part of the liver removed which is a very dangerous surgery. So at this point, I am working on just keeping myself healthy in whatever way I can. I actually still use NFP in a way. With a tubal, you still ovulate, and I am very easy to read on those days, so I even now don’t take a chance, so I guess you could say I practice NFP and have a tubal!!! lol But anyway, it is just hard to come here and be judged for something that I feel was no other choice. Now, there are some here that have had healthy lives and have never been through anything health wise at all that want to be all uppty up and tell us that have these problems what to do. That is about like me trying to tell someone that is going through cancer treatment, my opinion of it. Until you have walked in my shoes, I think I wouldn’t say anything to people about what decisions and choices you would make. Looks a lot different when that fear is staring you in the face.

Howdy. This is totally off topic but I’m confused about the hemangioma thing. I have a few hemangioma tumors on my liver. I was told (and found the same info in my research) that they aren’t a big deal. They are just benign tumors on the liver that don’t have any symptoms or problems. The only reason I know about my hemangiomas is because they found them on a ultrasound when they were looking for something else and confirmed what it was on a CT scan. (I have other health issues goign on) Anyway, they told me about them so that if I have follow up CT scans and they show up I can tell the doc what it is so they will know to ignore it. So, if I have some wrong information, please please let me know because I want to have a kid when I get married. I am 37 years old so I’m pushing it with my age and if I have to worry about those hemangiomas then I don’t know what I’ll do.

 

[rolltidefan]

Howdy. This is totally off topic but I’m confused about the hemangioma thing. I have a few hemangioma tumors on my liver. I was told (and found the same info in my research) that they aren’t a big deal. They are just benign tumors on the liver that don’t have any symptoms or problems. The only reason I know about my hemangiomas is because they found them on a ultrasound when they were looking for something else and confirmed what it was on a CT scan. (I have other health issues goign on) Anyway, they told me about them so that if I have follow up CT scans and they show up I can tell the doc what it is so they will know to ignore it. So, if I have some wrong information, please please let me know because I want to have a kid when I get married. I am 37 years old so I’m pushing it with my age and if I have to worry about those hemangiomas then I don’t know what I’ll do.

Hey…I am not here to offer medical advice on what type of hemangioma you have. There are different types of them though. Some of them don’t grow. Mine is not growing (Thank God), as I have had now going on 5 years of CT scans to confirm this. However, while taking any types of hormones birth control or even I become pregnant, this causes it to grow and bleed out, also with a baby growing inside of me and them kicking and etc. it can cause me to hemorrhage. Now, I am using mine for an example…obviously your doctors have not expressed concern over yours. I would update myself on them as much as I could, get opinions from a liver specilist also. If you were planning on getting pregnant, I would talk to my OB/GYN before doing so and explain to him about this and maybe have your CT scan pictures and etc. I actually have a picture of mine though from the inside of my body. When they did my cholecystectomy that is when they found it. It was very irritated, enlarged and was bleeding freely, so they could not even do a biopsy…This is when I had to go see all kinds of specilist and etc. which all told me not to get pregnant. Again, this is just my case and there are actually many different types of hemangioma. Like you said, some women go through life and never know they have them…have healthy babies and a healthy life. However, unfortunately, some of us have bigger ones that do cause problems. I wouldn’t worry about it if I were you, but I wouldn’t take it lightly either, especially if you have not talked to an OB/GYN.

 

[limerick]

you said: And under no circumstances would I let a graph or a chart that I’m making on cervical secretions or body temperature suggest that I have cancer or even an aversion to my own cervix
** (emphasis mine)**

What I said was that I would not let a graph or chart solely determine whether or not I have cancer or any other illness and disease, **and that I would consult with a doctor about symptoms. ** SYMPTOMS are what you might see on a chart or graph, NOT A DIAGNOSIS.

and I still stand by “how sad” because that is what our bodies do. They tell us that something is wrong.** I didn’t say you said it would diagnose.** **Check out your post ****number 53! ** I’m simply commenting on what YOU said. You wouldn’t let it “suggest”. well, then. Don’t let a shooting pain down your shin suggest anything either.

It’s remarkable that our bodies let us know when something might be wrong, but graph paper is not a crystal ball and a suggestion is a far cry from a diagnosis.

Obviously you did not read the site because it is an NFP only doc site. As I said, for the 3rd time.

And I have responded an equal number of times that the website you support offers plenty of information about NPF from doctors who are proponents of NPF and who also, interestingly, promote breastfeeding as a reliable method of child spacing, who promote sexual purity to young and unmarried people but - presumably - not to the married, and who give financial deals to men and women seeking fertility reversal procedures just so long as they agree to follow God’s will in this area. Good luck policing that one.

There has been plenty of information here and you are choosing to ignore it.

I am paying particular attention to every single detail of your posts. Then I am choosing to disregard those points that I find too subjective to be helpful. I believe the original poster is going to have to follow his conscience on the matter and that he and his wife can come to terms on the subject that they can live with. I do hope this couple decides to revere their own lives enough to depend on a birth control method with which they can live, one that no one demands of them till death they do part.

Limerick

 

[rolltidefan]

While we’re talking about wonderful contraceptives, do some research on the old forms that once were considered the best things since sliced bread. Anyone remember how the Dalkon Shield was going to make women throw away their pills? Until the thing started perforating uteruses and causing all sorts of nasty problems.

The early pills had so much estrogen in them that they were linked to cancers in later years and lots of vascular problems.

Remember those little rods that they could implant in your arms to make forgetful women infertile for months at a time? Well, the little buggers didn’t quite live up to the promise and were darn hard to remove, causing scarring and other issues. Plus it became an easy way for some societies to sterilize women against their will.

By the way, the pope on his throne in 1968 predicted that artificial contraception would lead to government abuses and coercion and forced sterilization campaigns, the increase in promiscuity and abortions (the ultimate backup contraception), and a diminishment of the dignity of women. (Much easier for men to use them if they can get away with not getting them pregnant.). He was prophetic.

And one can be used within a marriage too. By a husband who bears none of the physical burdens and side effects of contraception and comes to objectify the wife instead of seeing her and her fertility as a gift to be respected.

That doesn’t build happier marriages.

Speaking of birth control pillls…the studies have proven that with the use of birth control pills that it can reduce the risk of ovarian cancer and endometrial cancer. There was a slightly higher risk of breast cancer with the use, but also if you started your period at an early age, you have the same risks. You can reduce that risk by taking out your ovaries, but then you have a whole other set of complications. The reason I know all this is because my best friend had cervical cancer and I volunteered for the American Cancer Society for years and so I had this information readily provided to me. Have you ever read the contraindications on a Tylenol bottle?? That would scare the life out of you also. Any medication for that matter. Also those little rods in your arms are called Norplant. I had them…no scars and those were wonderful little rods! Worked for a whole 5 years for a forgetful person like me. Also, if you are talking about perforated uteruses and etc…what is the difference in taking the pill and that happening and having multiple c-sections and that happening?? And also my first child was conceived while taking the pill and had just taken antibiotics…I continued to take the pills until I found out I was pregnant with him and of course immediately stopped. Gave birth to a very healthy 8 pound boy on January 27, 1994. I then used NFP and hadn’t been on anything for a couple of years and then conceived my daugther…not saying this is related, but worst sickening pregnancy I had and she was very premature and not healthy at all. She weighted 4 pounds 15 ounces. Both of my babies are blessings and I am so glad to be alive to be a mother to my babies that God blessed me with.

 

[agapewolf]

limerick:
I quoted you directly. You said SUGGEST. Under no circumstances would you let it SUGGEST.

THAT is the comment I was referring to that is sad.

 

[agapewolf]

The reason that some pills studies have shown them to reduce cancer is because some of these pills are the ones that make the body simulate pregnancy.

and guess what, pregnancy reduces cancer risks

 

[limerick]

I quoted you directly. You said SUGGEST. Under no circumstances would you let it SUGGEST.

THAT is the comment I was referring to that is sad.

This is quite disjointed.

Is this your gripe: “And under no circumstances would I let a graph or a chart that I’m making on cervical secretions or body temperature **suggest **that I have cancer or even an aversion to my own cervix.”? Yes, this is correct. A symptom a person experiences may **suggest **that there may be something amiss in the body or mind. It does not diagnose it. A symptom is not a diagnosis. If you want to argue, spin it.

Limerick

 

[agapewolf]

This is quite disjointed.

Is this your gripe: “And under no circumstances would I let a graph or a chart that I’m making on cervical secretions or body temperature **suggest **that I have cancer or even an aversion to my own cervix.”? Yes, this is correct. A symptom a person experiences may **suggest **that there may be something amiss in the body or mind. It does not diagnose it. A symptom is not a diagnosis. If you want to argue, spin it.

Limerick

And at first you said you wouldnt’ let it suggest. Now you do.

You spun it, not me.

 

[limerick]

And at first you said you wouldnt’ let it suggest. Now you do.

You spun it, not me.

A symptom may suggest that there is a problem. I said that I wouldn’t let it suggest that I have cancer. Nor would I dismiss it.

You are the one who boldly proclaimed the following:

“There’s more to it than cervical mucous. In fact many illness are diagnosed with the help of the charting.” And, "Charting also showed I was having issues that could have been 1 of three things (Cancer, something else, or low progesterone). Charting diagnosed that I had a cervical aversion. Charting helped me realize that I was not depressed . . . "

Charting “helps”. Charting showed you “were having issues”. Charting *“helped **you realize”. * **Charting did not diagnose anything for you, including a cervical “aversion”. ** Are we to believe you did not see a doctor to investigate the meaning of these oracles?

Limerick

 

[agapewolf]

A symptom may suggest that there is a problem. I said that I wouldn’t let it suggest that I have cancer. Nor would I dismiss it.

You are the one who boldly proclaimed the following:

“There’s more to it than cervical mucous. In fact many illness are diagnosed with the help of the charting.” And, "Charting also showed I was having issues that could have been 1 of three things (Cancer, something else, or low progesterone). Charting diagnosed that I had a cervical aversion. Charting helped me realize that I was not depressed . . . "

Charting “helps”. Charting showed you “were having issues”. Charting *“helped **you realize”. * **Charting did not diagnose anything for you, including a cervical “aversion”. ** Are we to believe you did not see a doctor to investigate the meaning of these oracles?

Limerick

The doctor is the one who diagnosed it from the charts.

LEARN what we are talking about.

Here is the problem. You are trying to get out of something that you said, by twisting it now

You said you would not let observations suggest you have cancer. And thats the problem here.

 

[limerick]

The doctor is the one who diagnosed it from the charts.

LEARN what we are talking about.

Here is the problem. You are trying to get out of something that you said, by twisting it now

You said you would not let observations suggest you have cancer. And thats the problem here.

I disagree. I believe the problem is that you will not continue to support your claim that your medical condition was solely determined by charting. You said it yourself. These are your words: **“Charting diagnosed that I had a cervical aversion.” ** Maybe you meant to say, “It was through charting that I realized I had a symptom and I went to see my doctor about it. He diagnosed a cervical eversion.” If you really meant that your doctor diagnosed your medical condition, and that perhaps your charting gave him information with regard to your symptoms, why didn’t you just say that?

Communication is important only insofar as people are willing to take the time and effort to express themselves accurately and with integrity.

LEARN.

Limerick

 

[limerick]

The reason that some pills studies have shown them to reduce cancer is because some of these pills are the ones that make the body simulate pregnancy.

and guess what, pregnancy reduces cancer risks

In some instances, so does artificial birth control.

Limerick

 

[agapewolf]

I disagree. I believe the problem is that you will not continue to support your claim that your medical condition was solely determined by charting. You said it yourself. These are your words: **“Charting diagnosed that I had a cervical aversion.” ** Maybe you meant to say, “It was through charting that I realized I had a symptom and I went to see my doctor about it. He diagnosed a cervical eversion.” If you really meant that your doctor diagnosed your medical condition, and that perhaps your charting gave him information with regard to your symptoms, why didn’t you just say that?

Communication is important only insofar as people are willing to take the time and effort to express themselves accurately and with integrity.

LEARN.

Limerick

You disagree? don’t make me laugh. I am being dead honest here. I observed and marked it. My doc read the chart. Diagnose. DO NOT imply that I am lying which is what you have done.

And by the way, that IS NOT what I have been talking about in the last 5 posts. I have been talking about WHAT YOU HAVE SAID. quit twisting it. My goodness. YOU should have some integrity, before preaching it.
And to talk about integrity…you aren’t owning up to your own double talk.

 

[agapewolf]

In some instances, so does artificial birth control.

Limerick

BECAUSE it simulates pregnancy.

 

[agapewolf]

This is so tiresome. The multitudes of resources have been posted. You are refusing to read/study them. I will not continue to argue with someone who won’t even explore the facts that is just arguing at anything they can grasp at.

I’m done.

 

[limerick]

You disagree? don’t make me laugh. I am being dead honest here. I observed and marked it. My doc read the chart. Diagnose. DO NOT imply that I am lying which is what you have done.

And by the way, that IS NOT what I have been talking about in the last 5 posts. I have been talking about WHAT YOU HAVE SAID. quit twisting it. My goodness. YOU should have some integrity, before preaching it.
And to talk about integrity…you aren’t owning up to your own double talk.

You need not try to find ways in which I’ve been trying to circumvent the “charting as oracle” nonsense. I’ve made myself abundantly clear on every point. I know you are “dead honest” here, but that’s not my point. You observed it. You marked it. And then, you lead readers to believe, you had a diagnosis. Where did the doctor fit in to any of this scenario? Oh, at the end, jeez, guess you just forgot that part. The part that counted. The voice of authority.

I never suggested overtly or covertly that I thought you were lying. There’s a lot of grey area between lying and being dishonest with oneself. Also between being dishonest with oneself and leaving out details. Also between leaving out details and communicating poorly.

When you find that my posts are compromised in some way maybe we can discuss it. Until that time, I believe my integrity is intact. I stand by what I’ve written, even if you will never in your entire magical life believe any of it.

Nobody likes to be revealed against their wishes.

Limerick

 

[limerick]

This is so tiresome. The multitudes of resources have been posted. You are refusing to read/study them. I will not continue to argue with someone who won’t even explore the facts that is just arguing at anything they can grasp at.

I’m done.

Excellent!

L

 

[agapewolf]

You need not try to find ways in which I’ve been trying to circumvent the “charting as oracle” nonsense. I’ve made myself abundantly clear on every point. I know you are “dead honest” here, but that’s not my point. You observed it. You marked it. And then, you lead readers to believe, you had a diagnosis. Where did the doctor fit in to any of this scenario? Oh, at the end, jeez, guess you just forgot that part. The part that counted. The voice of authority.

I never suggested overtly or covertly that I thought you were lying. There’s a lot of grey area between lying and being dishonest with oneself. Also between being dishonest with oneself and leaving out details. Also between leaving out details and communicating poorly.

When you find that my posts are compromised in some way maybe we can discuss it. Until that time, I believe my integrity is intact. I stand by what I’ve written, even if you will never in your entire magical life believe any of it.

Nobody likes to be revealed against their wishes.

Limerick

I simply quoted you in one sentence, over and over and over, you even contradicted yourself in the very next sentence, yet dont’ own up to it.

You did suggest I was lying, and I stated exactly what happened.

Do NOT patronize me with such statements as you have made here.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

But the female body was not intended to “simulate pregnancy” by chemical means for years on end. Again, bad medicine.

And we won’t even get to the subject of all that urine filled with unbiodegradeable estrogen going back into our water supply. Do your own research. The long-term effects of that might appall you.

No, our sewage treatment plants can’t break down trace chemicals like that.

So… one of your babies was conceived by NFP after “years” and one was conceived while on the pill. So that’s 50/50 for you.