Turkey's Election

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Angel_Gabriel

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Merhaba, @CatholicTurk

I’ve been thinking and praying for your country today. How are things going over there? The latest news I’ve read is that Erdoğan is leading. What are your thoughts on this if I may ask?
 
Merhaba Angel Gabriel,

Thank you very much for your care and prayers once again. However, it’s all over but the cry.
Erdogan wipes off the floor… It’s over, such a tragic day in Turkish history.

Where are you from, if i may ask?
 
I’m American. I’m sorry to hear about the results…I hope and pray still that your country can rebound peacefully from this!
 
You’re Eastern (Catholic, i presume). I’m flattered by your interest in Turkey and Turkish.
I thought you might have at least a family background to a neighboring country.
How do you have such enthusiasm, if that’s not the case?
 
Yes, I’m Eastern Catholic (Ukrainian Catholic). I’m an odd American lol! I love music and several years ago came across a few music videos on YouTube and pretty much fell in love with the sound of Turkish pop. I was blown away by how “western” the videos were. It was like watching an American pop music video but much more exotic sounding. I started trying to learn how to pronounce the lyrics so I could sing along. (I’ve mastered a few songs!) I don’t understand much but I love the sound of it. It’s very harmonious yet harsh…like a mix of German and French…çok güzel 🙂 I know a few phrases and practice pronunciation but don’t really have anyone to teach me how to speak properly. My background is staunchly Western European (German, Irish, French…my family has been in the USA since the 1800s). I was raised Roman Catholic but officially switched a few years ago. I love the Byzantine rite.

If you don’t mind me asking, what is it like being Christian in a Muslim majority country? I would love to visit Istanbul someday and see the Hagia Sophia but I do worry a bit about how being a Christian (and American) would affect this.
 
I would love to visit Istanbul someday and see the Hagia Sophia but I do worry a bit about how being a Christian (and American) would affect this.
I visited Turkey some years ago on business and had a great time. We snuck off from the group to spend some time in Hagia Sophia, which was grand. then flew to Cesarea and traveled to Nyssa, and Cappadocia.
Goreme was incredible. The icon of the Theotokos in the Buckle church there is my favorite.

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Ankara was also amazing with Roman baths, and antiquities museum in which Roman were late-comers.
Even though there is a bitter-sweetness to visiting at Christian sties, the hospitality was great and the trip memorable.
 
That’s good to know! It seems like such a cool historical place to visit 🙂
 
That is fascinating, Angel Gabriel! You must be into languages. By the way, speaking of the Byzantine Rite, my Godfather has started going to a Melkite church in Miami, also, and he loves it. As far as my thoughts regarding last night’s elections: it is not something that will change our identity overnight. However, just like it has been the case for more than a decade now, he will gradually turn it into whatever he may see as fit. And that spectrum is something like anything from Iran to Venezuela, as i said before.

And @dvdjs, I’m so glad that you had such a good time. I hope you were able to take a ride (or a boat ride) along the shoreline on the Bosphorus. It’s even more beautiful when you get away from the Old Town. Istanbul and Hagia Sophia are both something else, for sure. I still get awe-inspired every time i visit, i can’t even imagine how the first visitors must have felt like back in the 4th century. Actually the current structure dates back to the 6th century (not 300s, as the first church did not survive).
I have recently been to Ephesus and surroundings for the first time, and i loved it. Too bad my country does not realize what kind of spiritual treasure we are sitting on.
 
That is fascinating, Angel Gabriel! You must be into languages.
Yes, I love learning about languages, especially how they evolve. I love how Turkish is written phonologically! I wish English would follow suit but with so many different countries using it I doubt that could happen. But it does makes me wonder how anyone can learn English given the way we spell and pronounce things. I also speak a bit of French and it was interesting to see where some of the loan words came from as well (plaj/plage = beach).
 
And @dvdjs , I’m so glad that you had such a good time. I hope you were able to take a ride (or a boat ride) along the shoreline on the Bosphorus
Our hotel was out of the old town at the Conrad Hilton. I did get on the water, but just for a moment as had took a water taxi to Lacivert for a memorable dinner on the water’s edge. We saw Roman antiquities in Istanbul and Ankara, walked and squeezed through ancient underground cave cities. Next time the coast and Ephesus for sure.
 
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CatholicTurk:
such a tragic day in Turkish history.
Why is it a sad day? What are the issues that Turkey is facing and that Erdogan is unable or unwilling to solve?
The new constitution is granting him unprecedented powers over pretty much everything, including direct control of military, police and intelligence agencies, also he will be the sole head of every ministry in Turkish politics, namely a dictator. Turkish news and media are already bought out by his extended family. He filters the internet access, there have been prohibited websites, including but not limited to porn. He had Twitter and YouTube shut down for a while due to the misuse (propaganda) by his opponents in millions. There have been “thousands” of arrests (journalists, a Christian missionary, statesmen, military personnel including generals, judges, lawyers, doctors, teachers, professors, regular people suspected for xyz, etc…) without a certain charge for the last couple of years, following the so-called “failed coup” which isn’t even clear whether it was real or staged by him in the first place. Moreover, he has gradually turned his back against the West, almost completely broke apart with Europe, budding heads with the US, and mingling way too much with Putin. The list goes on… And quite honestly i’m concerned about even typing these lines, for there have been arrests for “bad-mouthing” (supposedly defamation of…) the president. And so, there is no freedom of speech or any sense of true democracy at this point.
 
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CatholicTurk:
And @dvdjs , I’m so glad that you had such a good time. I hope you were able to take a ride (or a boat ride) along the shoreline on the Bosphorus
Our hotel was out of the old town at the Conrad Hilton. I did get on the water, but just for a moment as had took a water taxi to Lacivert for a memorable dinner on the water’s edge. We saw Roman antiquities in Istanbul and Ankara, walked and squeezed through ancient underground cave cities. Next time the coast and Ephesus for sure.
Oh you enjoyed it in a fancy way; Lacivert 😉 I hope it was the Summer time, then, which is definitely the best time for Istanbul (June or early September)
You gotta visit Bodrum in the Southwest (in the Aegean Sea) or Fethiye and the dozens of surrounding bays in the Mediterranean.
 
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CatholicTurk:
That is fascinating, Angel Gabriel! You must be into languages.
Yes, I love learning about languages, especially how they evolve. I love how Turkish is written phonologically! I wish English would follow suit but with so many different countries using it I doubt that could happen. But it does makes me wonder how anyone can learn English given the way we spell and pronounce things. I also speak a bit of French and it was interesting to see where some of the loan words came from as well (plaj/plage = beach).
English is a very easy language. I find Spanish easy just as much, the trouble for me starts with German and then French (which i love) afterwards.
 
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CatholicTurk:
there is no freedom of speech or any sense of true democracy at this point.
But this is what the people of Turkey voted for?
In his defense: infrastructurally he has done a lot, hence the economy-boost for some years. He’s been speaking to the hearts of millions of devout Muslims who under him have found many religious freedoms which they had not been able to practice before under the secular ruling. Now, as far as your question, here goes my answer: If the best nation on earth (USA) can find enough of reason to argue and worry as to whether the last Elections might have been rigged, how much more is it possible for a developing country?
 
devout Muslims who under him have found many religious freedoms which they had not been able to practice before under the secular ruling.
what was it like before for them? Is the Christian minority better off now or before?
English is a very easy language. I find Spanish easy just as much, the trouble for me starts with German and then French (which i love) afterwards.
You speak English very well by the way 🙂 . German is definitely harder to master (even for a native English speaker) and although I attempted Spanish I just can’t seem to get it as well as I do French.
 
Before Erdogan’s administration one could not wear turban/burka in public or state jobs, institutions, schools, government offices. People could easily discriminate against a devout Muslim. He has done a fantastic job fixing cemetery regulations, and so now it is hassle free to have a decent funeral and burial at absolutely zero cost to the individual’s family, it’s all taken care of by the local city branch. Devout Muslim employees are now entitled to prayer/worship-time at the work place. The Christian minority (Orthodox and Catholic) was in fact in a relatively worse off position. Now a days the government is handing back the ownership rights of churches and their dispersed lands or other facilities of foreign religious associations to their respective owners who do in fact have the legitimate ownership in any given land. This is the first administration to acknowledge the autonomy of “a” Protestant church in Turkey. When Protestants did not even have a single cemetery to bury their members, due to having been ousted by both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, as those churches only have designated cemeteries in which no other than their own members can be buried according to their tradition or rules, and the fact that the previous administrations would not even recognize such need of the Protestants (Pro, who?? used to be the attitude), the Erdogan administration, on the other hand, gave them rights to a cemetery and acknowledged them as a Church in Turkey for the first time since the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the founding of the Turkish Republic. Don’t get too excited, for he will not do anything further… The government has a branch called, the Ministry of Religion. This branch pays for each and every mosque and its expenses, along with the salary of imams. Yet, he taxes all of the churches and synagogues in Turkey. Though, i have to admit that he has helped renovating some churches to bring them back into life for their proper use. But then again, you cannot build a new church, or you cannot even have a Bible-study in your home or outside in the street, and you cannot certainly preach the Gospel in the American understanding of a missionary kind of way. And most importantly, whether it be a Catholic or Orthodox, you cannot train new clergy-to-be students within the Turkish territory. They must be sent out elsewhere, most of the time its either to Italy, USA or Greece for religious education, as non-Muslim religious training is prohibited by the Turkish government. I don’t know if you can feel the vibe and smell the air I’m trying to convey…
 
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And most importantly, whether it be a Catholic or Orthodox, you cannot train new clergy-to-be students within the Turkish territory. They must be sent out elsewhere, most of the time its either to Italy, USA or Greece for religious education, as non-Muslim religious training is prohibited by the Turkish government.
I’ve been told that this is problem in regards to the next Ecumenical Patriarch. They must be a Turkish citizen but of Greek decent or something like that. I’m sure the Patriarchate is concerned what they will do after Patriarch Bartholomew is gone.

Do Christians get harassed frequently? Is there a large secular community as well?
 
Yes, it is a serious problem, and i do not know what kind of solutions are there. But i presume they also have been sending out their own prospective students in advance to get ready for clergy level positions (not only priesthood) way ahead of time. Don’t take my word for it, though. I’m really oblivious to it.

I’ll ask an Orthodox friend to find out the accurate answer to your question, and i’ll let you know.

Do Christians get harassed frequently? Well, not really. The ones that get harassed are the ones like me, namely the converts. It is perceived as commiting treachery against your history and your own people. Remember that the Ottoman Empire was solely expanded on the grounds that they were conquering in the name of Islam. They were without a doubt the superpower of the 15th and 16th centuries. But it all falls back on evangelizing the world. In other words, Islam and the notion of being a Turk is so intertwined that you can’t separate the two. It is in our history, in our cuisine, in our language, in our traditions, culture… Therefore, for a typical Turk (even a secular one) the historical context is so deeply engraved on his/her mind, it’s as if Islam is the Protagonist and Christianity is the Antagonist in a long novel, so to speak. People discuss the current mishaps of the West (politics) among themselves, yet still refer to the Crusades for crying out loud! You might come across overhearing such conversation at a cafe or a restaurant. It is our identity at this point. Therefore, when a Muslim Turk converts, it is treacherous (not speaking legally, of course). So in short, if you’re a foreigner who minds his own business as far as religion, and not trying to act like one of “those missionaries”, then you’re absolutely fine. Turkish people are very hospitable and welcoming by all means, they love interacting with foreigners. Just don’t start meddling with their faith…

Moreover, the following is the mindset of many (including the government): We are a 99.7% Muslim nation. There is absolutely no need for even a single new church to be built, and no need for non-Muslim religious education or schools (hence prohibited), no need for “those missionaries” since we believe in the last prophet (Muhammed) who accepts Jesus and Moses. Therefore, if a foreigner is coming into our land preaching anything against our belief, it is nothing but that of a foreign government’s doing. How do “those missionaries” even get the funding? They are trying to undermine our government, our nation, and only intend to take away this long disputed/desired land back and put it under a Christian rule."
 
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