Turning Muslim in Texas

[majick275]

you are correct. I do not believe in any legislation or government action prohibiting Islam. I think my european examples are very valid in this case because it’s the same. Most muslims in Texas are immigrants. That a handful of natives convert doe snot change this, it actually make sit worse because it promotes the idea that here is a place ripe for conquest. The history of Islam is one of conquest. To sweep all that away and say only what occured after the UN counts is not right. I oppose the UN too though. I think it’s an outrageous scam that only serves to enrich corrupt politicians. I’m a bit jingoistic though. I have no problem with an America First outlook and am not real concerned with the best interests of other countries when it runs counter to that. I believe the Bible tells us that God gave Israel to the hebrews and I don’t recognize any other claim to it as something worthy of my support. I consider Mohammed to be a false prophet who successfully manipulated ignorant tribesmen into following him in the building up of a powerful nation that worshipped the pagan deity Allah.

I would consider any American who converted to Islam a fool like the “American Taliban” kid. I see that as little different than the 60’s flower children or any other cult movement that has duped people in American history. (Mormons, JWs, Branch Davidians, etc.)

I think even then though you are being awful idealistic. The fact is that Islam is very Arab centric. (The vast number of African and Asian adherents notwithstanding and accepting that Persians are not Arabs) The Arabic culture obviously influenced Mohamed and was the dominant culture under the caliphate. The Arabic language is the only one accepted for complete accuracy of the Koran. Therefore I think we draw realistic conclusions from mideast Islam.

It cannot peacefully coexist with Christianity and Judaism in the long term. I do not wish to see my native culture suppressed in favor of Islam if it were to increase in influence in Texas. (Of course I’m already ticked about seeing it supressed in favor of secular humanism)

 

[Tristan_daCunha]

Lance:

By your logic, we have to return most of our western states to Mexico, give Puerto Rico back to Spain, we may even have to return much of the mid-west to France since the British took it from them and we took it form England.

Actually, we bought the mid-west from the French. The Louisiana Purchase gave us claim to all the lands drained by the Mississippi River and its tributaries. In fact, one of the goals of the Lewis and Clark expedition was to see how far north could the U.S. claim land (versus British claims of Canada).

But this thread is horribly off-topic. Its supposed to discuss American Muslim converts. Perhaps a new thread should be started to talk about the other matters?

 

[eleusis]

a_cermak:

A) But that is to ignore a lot of history. Hamas got where it did by good works. It provided hospitals, clinics, food to those without work, etc. And Israel has not always even been kind to its Arab citizens, let alone the Palestinians.

B) And it is a Moslem belief that people have a right to fight against oppressors. If someone attacked your nation, and took your olive orchard, would you fight back and if you could not win, would you make every effort to ensure that whoever had it could never enjoy it in peace?

C) The largest problem Israel has had is that it never recompensed the people from whom it seized land. Had it provided just compensation and a passport to another nation (say US or UK), I think today we would see a large, peaceful Palestinian diaspora.

D) And to judge an entire religion based on the actions of people that belong to an entirely different cultural group probably doesn’t make sense. It is difficult to know whether they are acting because of their religion, or because of their culture, or perhaps because of their circumstance.

E) But are the motivations of the Muslims fighting in Indo-China different or the same as those fighting in the Middle East? And which part of the Middle East? Is Africa different or the same? I get the feeling that in Africa it tends to be a Arab vs. African (darker skin) thing whereas in Palestine it’s about a specific situation, in Iraq, it’s different and not all the Moslems are fighting us (yet), in Russia, it’s different yet again. In Bosnia-Herzogovina it was about defending their lives.

F) It’s easy for people to condemn “terrorism” when they’re not being oppressed by a government that has the power to continue to oppress them to infinity. I might add that what Samson did–making the building collapse and killing all those inside–would today be defined as an act of terrorism.

Pax,
Amy

Amy,

I’ll address a few of your points.

A) To overlook Hamas’ terrorist activity because they simultaneously run a bread and soup kitchen is unacceptable to rational minds. If a terrorist group such as Aryan Brotherhood were to open a hospital in Sheboygan while blowing up down town Chicago I am doubtful of your support for them. As for Israel and the Arabs, when they were being invaded in ’48 they warned the Arabs to stay in doors and down, the invaders told the Arabs to run or they’ll be killed. Those who ran became refugees, those who stayed enjoy Israeli citizenship to this day.

B) Everyone believes in the right of self defense. Israel occupies less than 30% of the so-called Palestinian homeland (which is a fictitious construct foisted on the world in the 60’s) 70% of the homeland is in a little place called Jordan but why are we not hearing about that chunk of land too? Anti-Semitic Politics which you appear to be buying into.

C) The problem with your view is that NO NATION would accept the Palestinians. No Arab nation wants them, they are the Gypsies of the Middle East. If Saudi Arabia spent even half the money they spend on trying to convert Europe and the United States on developing the Palestinian territories in Israel then that region would be the gem of the Med rather than the cesspit they keep it as.

D) You are buying into the liberal moral relativism Pope Benedict warns us against as Catholics. Right and wrong can be judged, there is an absolute.

E) Avoid basing your opinion on “feelings”, crack a book learn the situation and become informed. The Malayan Thai insurgency, the Philippine insurgency, the radical Islamic ethnic wars of Africa are all based on the radical goals espoused by Salafist theorist. Go buy or check out the book by Huntington, the Clash of Cultures for a layman’s understanding of the friction.

F) Again you are using moral relativism to justify terrorism, you sound like a tacit supporter of them. What Samson did at the temple doesn’t fit today’s definition of terrorism. It was a suicide attack, but it wasn’t terrorism.

 

[Neverland]

Amy,

Are you challenging your own God? Please read Surah 5:21. And if you want to know, some part of ‘Palestinian land’ are occupied by Arabian country like Jordania as well.

Neverland

 

[a_cermak]

Yes I know part of Palestine is occupied by Jordan too. I object to it as well.

I’m not challenging God, I simply don’t consider God’s words or promises to be relevant in international disputes and the UN Charter to which every member has subscribed. Nobody gets to operate out from under it–even those with a divine promise. Same rules for everyone.

Amy

 

[eleusis]

a_cermak:

I simply don’t consider God’s words or promises to be relevant in international disputes…

Amy

Do you actually read what you post?? Are you a practicing Catholic?? If you practice the Catholic Faith then God’s word and promises are vitally important and relevant. I can well assure you the Muslims believe and practice the relevance of God’s word as they see it in and they will not hesitate to kill to further those beliefs.

Where do you draw your “authority” to decide that God’s word is no longer relevant to international relations??

 

[eleusis]

Faith101:

I saw it, i liked it, thought it would be nice to share with you guys, and get some feedback about what you thought.

Oh, that’s easy, the thought is that some people have such weak minds and poorly developed intellects that they will follow any new idea that seems like the “in” thing or cool way to rebel. Anyone who actually researches the history of Muhammad and his religion will see that religion for what it really is, or is not.

 

[a_cermak]

God wasn’t a signatory to the convention.

Why bother to sign treaties if you can just use God as a trump card? Treaties, when signed by parties from many religions, must be impartial towards religion of all kinds.

Pax,
Amy

 

[Faith101]

eleusis:

Oh, that’s easy, the thought is that some people have such weak minds and poorly developed intellects that they will follow any new idea that seems like the “in” thing or cool way to rebel. Anyone who actually researches the history of Muhammad and his religion will see that religion for what it really is, or is not.

You came to that conclusion by watching that video? Do you think it was easy for those people to convert to Islam? DO you not think that these people researched the religion before converting?

I understaand that we dont have the same beliefs. I understand you feel that those people have strayed from the straight path. But your comment totally doesnt reflect these people.

I was born into a Muslim family, alhamdulilah. But from the converts that i know, they are sooo much more knowledgble then me in everything…from the basics of faith to the life of Mohamed to the Quran. Giving up what you believed all your life isnt easy…and surely you wont do it to be “cool”

 

[Tristan_daCunha]

Faith101:

from the converts that i know, they are sooo much more knowledgble then me in everything…from the basics of faith to the life of Mohamed to the Quran.

Yes, it really came out in the documentary, too. Among Christians, it is well known that converts tend to be the most fervent, It was interesting to see that this holds true for Muslims, as well.

Giving up what you believed all your life isnt easy…and surely you wont do it to be “cool”

I don’t recall any of the people profiled in the documentary claiming that Islam was “cool” or that being Muslim was “hip”. What I do remember is that being Muslim involved sacrifice from those persons and it made them the unwanted center of attention at times.

 

[eleusis]

Faith101:

But from the converts that i know, they are sooo much more knowledgble then me in everything…from the basics of faith to the life of Mohamed to the Quran. Giving up what you believed all your life isnt easy…and surely you wont do it to be “cool”

A) Its too bad that converts know more than you do, a person professing to be here to convert others. Sounds like you are not fully armed. Perhaps some further reading and study is in order for you to be a better rep for your particular deity? I suggest “Why I am not a Muslim” Written by Ibn Warraq, a pseudonym used because of death threats against him following his conversion.

B) Sure, giving up what one holds true is never easy but one must have a certain amount of instability to grasp on to cults which spout wild doctrines.

C)The studies coming out of the European experience with Islam contradicts your view: in fact the new wave of converts (Zarcharious Mussaoui, Richard Ried to name two) are part of the psychological profile that was created by the intelligence agencies in the 70’s and 80’s to profile terrorists from the old communist gangs. The profile fits the mold of social rebels to a “T”.

 

[eleusis]

Tristan daCunha:

What I do remember is that being Muslim involved sacrifice from those persons and it made them the unwanted center of attention at times.

Many people profess they appreciate Muslims because of their discipline to sacrifice for their god. However, a Catholic living the faith is called to sacrifice too. There are days we are called to prayer out of obligation, sometimes we are called to bear a mark on our forehead that some may find embarassign and wipe off prior to leaving Mass. At Easter and Lent, these are times of sacrifice which can be just as severe as the Ramadan fasts, its up to the person and his connection with God. Every Friday Catholics are called to sacrifice meat for fish. We are called to daily prayer and meditation with the meditations of the hours, laymen can become quite monkish if they want to really and totally become consumed with aspects of the faith. Catholicism is beautiful in its ability to allow the faithful their full measure of dedication and discipline but it allows this in accord with the desire and ability of the faithful. We don’t have prayer police beating us when we eat bacon on a Friday or are found skipping Mass on a Holy day…this is the clash of cultures and the weakness of some of the faithful to be able to impose their own will on themselves.

 

[eleusis]

a_cermak:

God wasn’t a signatory to the convention.

Why bother to sign treaties if you can just use God as a trump card? Treaties, when signed by parties from many religions, must be impartial towards religion of all kinds.

Pax,
Amy

Amy,

When one is a Christian Catholic one bases decisions on verbiage to use in treaties based on ones background and belief, this is true actually if one is an atheist too. This is how God is put into or left out of business and diplomatic actions.

My point is that just because one is doing “official business” doesn’t mean that one must check faith at the door.

If we truly embrace our faith and practice it then it is part of us and guides us. God isn’t a trump card flipped on the table for convenience.

 

[Tristan_daCunha]

eleusis:

Many people profess they appreciate Muslims because of their discipline to sacrifice for their god.

Perhaps so, but that wasn’t what I was referring to. The documentary indicated that for persons turning away from “normal” Christianity to embrace “unusual” Islam brought some cost to their interpersonal relationships. My point was simply that life would have been easier for them if they had not converted - that conversion wasn’t done on a lark or to be fashionable.

 

[JimG]

I’ll still be curious to see what happens when a new convert–or a spouse, or son or daughter–decides to change religions.

 

[Hadith]

JimG:

I’ll still be curious to see what happens when a new convert–or a spouse, or son or daughter–decides to change religions.

If they are Muslim life as they know it is over. The other thread shows a christian who is routinely attacked after church, this is because he is a convert from Islam, and apostate. He is being given time by Allah to repent and his attacks are reminders time is running out.

For a Muslim to leave the faith means to leave the entire social net. For in Islam we are not like the West, we believe Islam applies everywhere all the time in every affair of human life. When a man decides to leave the faith he is committing eternal suicide and we are called to try to recall him to his faith. A person cannot just leave Islam, it is an insult to Allah and the Ummah and cannot be allowed to stand. Surely you must understand this?

 

[Hadith]

a_cermak:

Yes I know part of Palestine is occupied by Jordan too. I object to it as well.

I’m not challenging God, I simply don’t consider God’s words or promises to be relevant in international disputes and the UN Charter to which every member has subscribed. Nobody gets to operate out from under it–even those with a divine promise. Same rules for everyone.

Amy

amy, you write well and show intelligence. Blessings. Thank you for your defense of the oppressed. But you must understand that Allah is soverign over man, we are called to submit and the treaties we must make absolutely have to take Allah’s word into consideration.

Out of curiosity, when you are on the computer is there a man in the house? In my family women do not use the computer without moral guidance. But I wonder about your culture. Thank you.

 

[Faith101]

A person cannot just leave Islam, it is an insult to Allah and the Ummah and cannot be allowed to stand. Surely you must understand this?

asalamu alaikum

what do you mean it is an insult to Allah? Allah loses nothing when someone leaves the straight path, and gains nothing when someone is guided to the straight path.

Allah says in the Quran of people who wish to decieve (or try to “harm” him) but yet they only decieve and harm themselves.

please elaborate.

 

[JimG]

Hadith:

If they are Muslim life as they know it is over. The other thread shows a christian who is routinely attacked after church, this is because he is a convert from Islam, and apostate. He is being given time by Allah to repent and his attacks are reminders time is running out.

For a Muslim to leave the faith means to leave the entire social net. For in Islam we are not like the West, we believe Islam applies everywhere all the time in every affair of human life. When a man decides to leave the faith he is committing eternal suicide and we are called to try to recall him to his faith. A person cannot just leave Islam, it is an insult to Allah and the Ummah and cannot be allowed to stand. Surely you must understand this?

So one can join, but one can’t leave? Does everyone understand this upfront?

What about a son or daughter who didn’t actually join personally but just goes to the same worship service as the family? When they come of age, could they join a different religion or are they equally as obligated?

 

[JimG]

Hadith:

amy, you write well and show intelligence. Blessings. Thank you for your defense of the oppressed. But you must understand that Allah is soverign over man, we are called to submit and the treaties we must make absolutely have to take Allah’s word into consideration.

Out of curiosity, when you are on the computer is there a man in the house? In my family women do not use the computer without moral guidance. But I wonder about your culture. Thank you.

Amy, for pete’s sake, are you operating a computer without the presence of a man? Has it come to this?