Two Colo. lawmakers recalled over gun control support

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So this would be true for the US too? It is the culture of our country not the availability of guns?
While Robert sited shame as being behind the higher Japan suicide rate, I would disagree.

It is the perception that suicide is actually an honorable (almost expected) thing to do under certain circumstances. That is, the action of suicide is the appropriate thing to do to avoid the shame/restore honor. That it is an acceptable choice, there is less stigma there about suicide. (I have a brother who’s lived there ~20yrs, they really do have a different view of suicide than us)

The availability of guns in the US has nothing to do with our perception of suicide. We don’t see it as an acceptable solution, we try to stop it, save people from themselves, get them help. Those who choose that path are routinely viewed as seriously mentally ill- we can’t define circumstances where its clearly justifiable. Hence the controversy over assisted suicide even for folks in tremendous pain at the end of their lives- we don’t as a culture have a situation where there is consensus on justification.

ETA: I’ll ask my brother if the burial of suicide in eastern cultures is treated differently like it has been in the west.
 
The United States does not lead the world in suicides despite the guns. We aren’t even in the top ten. In other countries, the leading cause of suicide is not guns but hanging, overdoses and trains.
Comparing the American culture to that of Japan, is like comparing apples to oranges.
 
Robert, since u and a select few of this country believe all my rights are not important to you as they r too me, and since u r tryin to take one of mine away that u don’t believe are just as important, tell me which one u would b willing for me to take away from u??? and NOT the 2nd amendment 😉 Freedom of speech, of religion? or do I get to choose for ya? :rolleyes:

and there are other ways of death in the US that far lead suicide. where is your outrage for themt?
 
Robert, since u and a select few of this country believe all my rights are not important to you as they r too me, and since u r tryin to take one of mine away that u don’t believe are just as important, tell me which one u would b willing for me to take away from u??? and NOT the 2nd amendment 😉 Freedom of speech, of religion? or do I get to choose for ya? :rolleyes:

and there are other ways of death in the US that far lead suicide. where is your outrage for themt?
Chadair, you might enjoy this quote. Imagine in a few years when different view points are banned/punishable as ‘hate speech’ (of course as defined by the politicians)

Jeff Snyder:

“To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow… For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding.”

Oh, and to got back on topic. Society controls politicians by holding them accountable for ignoring their constituents desires and rights.
 
Wow. Robert didn’t even respond to this post of mine in which I made a fairly strong statement against his arguments.

Robert, it is these kinds of things that make me wonder if you are just a very long-term troll, establishing yourself as a respectable member of the CAF community and then causing chaos from within. I honestly don’t mean to be directly insulting, but this kind of behavior, in which you are dishonest as to what your own opinions are, and consistently refuse to acknowledge how data, information, is contrary to your own posts, is very, very dubious.

Please redeem yourself if you are not the troll I fear you are, Robert.

Do you or do you not recognize the correlation between higher gun ownership rates and lower crime rates. Yes or no, please, no topic changes.
 
Robert, since u and a select few of this country believe all my rights are not important to you as they r too me, and since u r tryin to take one of mine away that u don’t believe are just as important, tell me which one u would b willing for me to take away from u??? and NOT the 2nd amendment 😉 Freedom of speech, of religion? or do I get to choose for ya? :rolleyes:

and there are other ways of death in the US that far lead suicide. where is your outrage for themt?
What does stricter background checks and a limit on magazine capacities have to do with you owning a gun?
 
What does stricter background checks and a limit on magazine capacities have to do with you owning a gun?
Just so you know the background check is done before you are allowed to own a gun. Magazines hold the bullets that go into guns.

🤷
 
What does stricter background checks and a limit on magazine capacities have to do with you owning a gun?
Well, they are relevant to the intent of the right the constitution states the citizens would continue to have under the new government, which the Colorado legislature disregarded, contrary to their constituents desires. The magazine capacity being related to exercising the rights purpose to be able to resist “… the depredations of a tyrannical government.” Note, the principle the right protects continues regardless of the development of technology.

From the DC Court of Appeals ruling upheld in Heller, with a snippet from the orals on the logical arms covered to support the right as intended by the founding fathers:

“To summarize, we conclude that the Second Amendment
protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. That right
existed prior to the formation of the new government under the
Constitution and was premised on the private use of arms for
activities such as hunting and self-defense, the latter being
understood as resistance to either private lawlessness or the
depredations of a tyrannical government (or a threat from
abroad). In addition, the right to keep and bear arms had the
important and salutary civic purpose of helping to preserve the
citizen militia. The civic purpose was also a political expedient
for the Federalists in the First Congress as it served, in part, to
placate their Anti-federalist opponents. The individual right
facilitated militia service by ensuring that citizens would not be
barred from keeping the arms they would need when called forth
for militia duty. Despite the importance of the Second
Amendment’s civic purpose, however, the activities it protects
are not limited to militia service, nor is an individual’s
enjoyment of the right contingent upon his or her continued or
intermittent enrollment in the militia.”

Pg 53
The modern handgun—and for that matter the rifle and
long-barreled shotgun—is undoubtedly quite improved over its
colonial-era predecessor, but it is, after all, a lineal descendant
of that founding-era weapon, and it passes Miller’s standards.
Pistols certainly bear “some reasonable relationship to the
preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.” They are
also in “common use” today, and probably far more so than in
1789. Nevertheless, it has been suggested by some that only
colonial-era firearms (e.g., single-shot pistols) are covered by
the Second Amendment. But just as the First Amendment free
speech clause covers modern communication devices unknown
to the founding generation, e.g., radio and television, and the
Fourth Amendment protects telephonic conversation from a
“search,” the Second Amendment protects the possession of the
modern-day equivalents of the colonial pistol. See, e.g., Kyllo
v. United States, 533 U.S. 27, 31-41 (2001) (applying Fourth
Amendment standards to thermal imaging search).

SCOTUS orals discussion
GENERAL CLEMENT: Well, Justice Scalia, I think our principal concern based on the parts of the court of appeals opinion that seemed to adopt a very categorical rule were with respect to machine guns, because I do think that it is difficult – I don’t want to foreclose the possibility of the Government, Federal Government making the argument some day – but I think it is more than a little difficult to say that the one arm that’s not protected by the Second Amendment is that which is the standard issue armament for the National Guard, and that’s what the machine gun is.
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: But this law didn’t involve a restriction on machine guns. It involved an absolute ban. It involved an absolute carry prohibition. Why would you think that the opinion striking down an absolute ban would also apply to a narrow one – narrower one directed solely to machine guns?
GENERAL CLEMENT: I think, Mr. Chief Justice, why one might worry about that is one might read the language of page 53a of the opinion as reproduced in the petition appendix that says once it is an arm, then it is not open to the District to ban it. Now, it seems to me that the District is not strictly a complete ban because it exempts pre-1976 handguns. The Federal ban on machine guns is not, strictly speaking, a ban, because it exempts pre - pre-law machine guns, and there is something like 160,000 of those.
JUSTICE SCALIA: But that passage doesn’t mean once it’s an arm in the dictionary definition of arms. Once it’s an arm in the specialized sense that the opinion referred to it, which is – which is the type of a weapon that was used in militia, and it is -it is nowadays commonly held.
GENERAL CLEMENT: Well -
JUSTICE SCALIA: If you read it that way, I don’t see why you have a problem.

GENERAL CLEMENT: Well, I – I hope that you read it that way. But I would also say that I think that whatever the definition that the lower court opinion employed, I do think it’s going to be difficult over time to sustain the notion – I mean, the Court of Appeals also talked about lineal descendants. And it does seem to me that, you know, just as this Court would apply the Fourth Amendment to something like heat imagery, I don’t see why this Court wouldn’t allow the Second Amendment to have the same kind of scope, and then I do think that reasonably machine guns come within the term “arms.”
 
So Robert,

While our founding fathers intended for the people to retain the ability to violently overthrow the government, I prefer folks peacefully conducting a recall instead.

Again, my favorite part of the Declaration of Independence:

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
 
Well, they are relevant to the intent of the right the constitution states the citizens would continue to have under the new government, which the Colorado legislature disregarded, contrary to their constituents desires. The magazine capacity being related to exercising the rights purpose to be able to resist “… the depredations of a tyrannical government.” Note, the principle the right protects continues regardless of the development of technology.

From the DC Court of Appeals ruling upheld in Heller, with a snippet from the orals on the logical arms covered to support the right as intended by the founding fathers:

“To summarize, we conclude that the Second Amendment
protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. That right
existed prior to the formation of the new government under the
Constitution and was premised on the private use of arms for
activities such as hunting and self-defense, the latter being
understood as resistance to either private lawlessness or the
depredations of a tyrannical government (or a threat from
abroad). In addition, the right to keep and bear arms had the
important and salutary civic purpose of helping to preserve the
citizen militia. The civic purpose was also a political expedient
for the Federalists in the First Congress as it served, in part, to
placate their Anti-federalist opponents. The individual right
facilitated militia service by ensuring that citizens would not be
barred from keeping the arms they would need when called forth
for militia duty. Despite the importance of the Second
Amendment’s civic purpose, however, the activities it protects
are not limited to militia service, nor is an individual’s
enjoyment of the right contingent upon his or her continued or
intermittent enrollment in the militia.”

Pg 53
The modern handgun—and for that matter the rifle and
long-barreled shotgun—is undoubtedly quite improved over its
colonial-era predecessor, but it is, after all, a lineal descendant
of that founding-era weapon, and it passes Miller’s standards.
Pistols certainly bear “some reasonable relationship to the
preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.” They are
also in “common use” today, and probably far more so than in
1789. Nevertheless, it has been suggested by some that only
colonial-era firearms (e.g., single-shot pistols) are covered by
the Second Amendment. But just as the First Amendment free
speech clause covers modern communication devices unknown
to the founding generation, e.g., radio and television, and the
Fourth Amendment protects telephonic conversation from a
“search,” the Second Amendment protects the possession of the
modern-day equivalents of the colonial pistol. See, e.g., Kyllo
v. United States, 533 U.S. 27, 31-41 (2001) (applying Fourth
Amendment standards to thermal imaging search).

SCOTUS orals discussion
GENERAL CLEMENT: Well, Justice Scalia, I think our principal concern based on the parts of the court of appeals opinion that seemed to adopt a very categorical rule were with respect to machine guns, because I do think that it is difficult – I don’t want to foreclose the possibility of the Government, Federal Government making the argument some day – but I think it is more than a little difficult to say that the one arm that’s not protected by the Second Amendment is that which is the standard issue armament for the National Guard, and that’s what the machine gun is.
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: But this law didn’t involve a restriction on machine guns. It involved an absolute ban. It involved an absolute carry prohibition. Why would you think that the opinion striking down an absolute ban would also apply to a narrow one – narrower one directed solely to machine guns?
GENERAL CLEMENT: I think, Mr. Chief Justice, why one might worry about that is one might read the language of page 53a of the opinion as reproduced in the petition appendix that says once it is an arm, then it is not open to the District to ban it. Now, it seems to me that the District is not strictly a complete ban because it exempts pre-1976 handguns. The Federal ban on machine guns is not, strictly speaking, a ban, because it exempts pre - pre-law machine guns, and there is something like 160,000 of those.
JUSTICE SCALIA: But that passage doesn’t mean once it’s an arm in the dictionary definition of arms. Once it’s an arm in the specialized sense that the opinion referred to it, which is – which is the type of a weapon that was used in militia, and it is -it is nowadays commonly held.
GENERAL CLEMENT: Well -
JUSTICE SCALIA: If you read it that way, I don’t see why you have a problem.

GENERAL CLEMENT: Well, I – I hope that you read it that way. But I would also say that I think that whatever the definition that the lower court opinion employed, I do think it’s going to be difficult over time to sustain the notion – I mean, the Court of Appeals also talked about lineal descendants. And it does seem to me that, you know, just as this Court would apply the Fourth Amendment to something like heat imagery, I don’t see why this Court wouldn’t allow the Second Amendment to have the same kind of scope, and then I do think that reasonably machine guns come within the term “arms.”
I fear that we are approaching a wild era of renegade vigilantes. People taking the law into their own hands, all in the name of justice and freedom. People have a right to live in peace and calm!
 
I fear that we are approaching a wild era of renegade vigilantes. People taking the law into their own hands, all in the name of justice and freedom. People have a right to live in peace and calm!
Which is why the people understanding that they are ultimately in charge, not the politicians prevents the vigilantism you fear.

There is a process for the people, at least in Colorado to hold their politicians accountable. That’s a good thing.

I do not share your fear of vigilantism at all. In those jurisdictions where folks can exercise their rights, there is less violence and more peace. Those who choose to exercise the right have proven to be the most law abiding.

ETA: John Basil Barnhill said, “Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty.”

Politicians being in fear of losing their jobs when the violate the public’s trust and desires is a good thing. It keeps the government from becoming overbearing.
 
Just curious, where is this right spelled out? When will the government begin enforcing this right?
Over the course of human history, especially the last ~120yrs, the biggest threat to peace and calm comes from folks own governments- yet, no one proposes disarming the government.
 
Which is why the people understanding that they are ultimately in charge, not the politicians prevents the vigilantism you fear.

There is a process for the people, at least in Colorado to hold their politicians accountable. That’s a good thing.

I do not share your fear of vigilantism at all. In those jurisdictions where folks can exercise their rights, there is less violence and more peace. Those who choose to exercise the right have proven to be the most law abiding.

ETA: John Basil Barnhill said, “Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty.”

Politicians being in fear of losing their jobs when the violate the public’s trust and desires is a good thing. It keeps the government from becoming overbearing.
Government is responsible for people’s wellbeing! This includes strict background checks and a limit on magazine capacity. Why would anybody complain about that?
 
Government is responsible for people’s wellbeing! This includes strict background checks and a limit on magazine capacity. Why would anybody complain about that?
Why do you object to the citizens of Colorado holding their legislators accountable?

Why do you object to the citizens of a state assessing the pros/cons of gun laws and then requiring their paid employees respect their opinions on what gun laws actually protect their well-being?

Are the citizens of Colorado children to be taken care of, or adults to determine what is best for them?

Given that it is not the job of the government to protect individuals, why can’t the citizens of Colorado decide what are the best gun laws to permit the citizens to defend themselves?
 
Why do you object to the citizens of Colorado holding their legislators accountable?

Why do you object to the citizens of a state assessing the pros/cons of gun laws and then requiring their paid employees respect their opinions on what gun laws actually protect their well-being?

Are the citizens of Colorado children to be taken care of, or adults to determine what is best for them?

Given that it is not the job of the government to protect individuals, why can’t the citizens of Colorado decide what are the best gun laws to permit the citizens to defend themselves?
What do you possibly have against things like strict background checks?
 
What do you possibly have against things like strict background checks?
That isn’t relevant to the issue of what the people of Colorado want, based on their assessment of the pros/cons of gun laws, and whether their representatives should respect the wishes/desires/judgement of the people they are being paid to represent.

What I think of the laws isn’t germane, what the people in Colorado thought is.
 
That isn’t relevant to the issue of what the people of Colorado want, based on their assessment of the pros/cons of gun laws, and whether their representatives should respect the wishes/desires/judgement of the people they are being paid to represent.

What I think of the laws isn’t germane, what the people in Colorado thought is.
What the people want often goes against what is in society’s best interest. Lawmakers should not be recalled for doing what’s in the people’s best interest.
 
What the people want often goes against what is in society’s best interest. Lawmakers should not be recalled for doing what’s in the people’s best interest.
I thought the people were society.

And who said what they did was in society’s best interest - obviously not the people that make up society.
 
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